YaGunT: Recommend pocket sized .380

[shortylickens]

Originally Posted by Charlie98

I have the SIG P238's granddaddy... a Colt Gov't .380. What I don't like about the Gov't/Mustang/P238 is the tiny safety... and the not so good detent to hold the safety 'on.' The P238 is a single-action automatic, best carried 'cocked and locked' like a typical 1911. Having said that, I carried my Colt hammer down on a loaded chamber.

TBH, I handled a P238 some years ago, when SIG introduced them. I don't really recall if they did indeed fix or strengthen the safety detent or not.

I did finally replace it with a Kahr CW9 (same size, less weight, more power,) the equivalent to the SIG P238 would be the Kahr P380 or, better yet, the CM9 (pocket guns.)

The newer models have slightly better safeties.

[boomhower]

Originally Posted by irishScott

For me it's more about options. Yes in all likelihood it'll be a point-blank or near point-blank get off of/away from me gun, but there's always the possibility that I end up in a robbery or Virginia Tech or something. Very slim possibility but a possibility nonetheless. If I carry anything, gun, phone, wallet, whatever, I want maximum capability for form factor.

Then you need to carry a bigger gun. A 380 is a poor self defense round. It's certainly better than nothing. I suggest a Kahr CM9. It's still very pocketable, had decent sites that can be upgraded to better ones, and is 9mm. And it's cheap, less than $400 at most shops.

[pontifex]

Originally Posted by Agent11

I wasn't aware S&W made a .380 CCW revolver.

they didn't. the bodyguard revolver is .38 special

[Charlie98]

Originally Posted by alienb

When the adrenaline starts pumping your motor skills just take a giant shit on you and having a bit larger of a weapon, (for me) is the key to actually hitting someone trying to take your life.

Amen! All your fine motor skills will go away and you are standing there like a caveman with a club. NO place for tiny safetys or trying to rack the slide on an unchambered pistol. NO place for a pistol you have to dig around in your pocket for (sorry pocket pistol carriers... I wouldn't carry it that way, but that's me,) or for a pistol that you have a hard time manipulating or controlling under stress.

[shortylickens]

Originally Posted by boomhower

Then you need to carry a bigger gun. A 380 is a poor self defense round. It's certainly better than nothing. I suggest a Kahr CM9. It's still very pocketable, had decent sites that can be upgraded to better ones, and is 9mm. And it's cheap, less than $400 at most shops.

Alright this is one of those times I need to be a jerk (deliberately, not accidentally), but this isnt quite true, sir.

On meat and gel tests the 380 speer gold dot destroys just as much as a 9mm speer gold dot, similar with the hydra shoks and other common man stoppers these days. The main advantage 9mm has is in punching through heavy leather & denim jackets and still keeping its power, so as to expand inside flesh.

I've watched a buttload of vids and many people use sides of beef to illustrate this concept.

[Charlie98]

Originally Posted by shortylickens

Alright this is one of those times I need to be a jerk (deliberately, not accidentally), but this isnt quite true, sir.

On meat and gel tests the 380 speer gold dot destroys just as much as a 9mm speer gold dot, similar with the hydra shoks and other common man stoppers these days. The main advantage 9mm has is in punching through heavy leather & denim jackets and still keeping its power, so as to expand inside flesh.

It's true, modern .380 defensive ammo has come a long way. When I was carrying my .380 I felt pretty confident with it's abilities even while understanding it's limitations. Down here in Texas, it's not very often people are bundled up like Eskimos. But I finally traded the 95grn .380 round for the 147grn 9mm round in a slightly larger package... I think, at self-defense ranges (that is to say 15ft or less) you are still looking at shot placement trumping round selection.

Kahr CW9 on L, Colt's Gov't .380 on R. These are not pocket pistols, but they tuck very, very well at my 4 O'Clock, even while wearing shorts and a T-shirt. A CM9 would be even more compact and, if carried IWB at the 4 OR 2 O'Clock, still immediately accessable.

[lokiju]

I have owned the Ruger LCP for a few years now and I hated the trigger when I got it but have since gotten used to it.

I work with a guy that's a big gun enthuest and one time when we went to the range I let him fire the LCP and he set it down after 1 shot and said "nope". He felt like it'd fly out of hand if he shot it again.

I'm a big guy with big hands and do admit it's tiny in my hand but really it all comes down to getting used to the gun and what to expect. I added the finger extension to the magazine and for me, it's fine now but my co-worker still hated it even with the finger extension.

My brother-in-law bought the Taurus 738 around the same time I bought my Ruger and he had a lot of feed and jamming issues. It was very picky on which ammo he used. I've NEVER had a single jam with my Ruger and I get the cheapest reload shit I can find for when I go to the range (not what I load when carried) and I've literally not once had a loading (ramp feed) or jamming issue.

Then in April of this year I bought the Taurus 740 Slim. It's a .40 single stack and when you look at the specs vs the Taurus 709 Slim 9mm, it's identical. So more stopping power in the same sized gun.

That said, I was happily carrying the 740 with front pocket carry when it was warm out using a Uncle Mike's pocket holster but since it's gotten colder out and I need to wear jeans, I cannot fit it in my front jeans pocket like I could on my shorts. I bought a Crossbreed mini tuck a while back and it was great, until I lost a buch of weight in the past 6 months (45lbs). Now I find it really challenging to comfortably carry IWB with this thing since it's right up against my hip and rib bones and becomes very uncomfortable quickly. I've been playing with repositioning the way the crossbreed sits as there's 3 adjustment holds on each side that let you move it up and down in how it sits so I'm still hoping to find the perfect position that resolves this issue for me.

The comfort issues I've been having with the .40 have got me to thinking a lot recently on what to do about this and have spent a TON of time looking into every possible option out there that can give me a better pocket carry ability but with better stopping power than the .380 and I've concluded that it's not possible.

Any single stack that's above .380 is going to be right at 1" wide and that's the main issue. Then there's the length that has a big impact in the ability to pocket carry and again, anything above .380 is going to be much longer than the LCP and as a result make it very hard to fit into jean pockets.

I have a leather "wallet" holster for my LCP that looks just like this but with the space for the Crimson Trace laser grip and I could comfortably carry all day every day without any discomfort like that or when carrying in my front pocket using a Uncle Mikes pocket holster.

There's just no way to accomplish this with anything thats out there currently in a gun that's over a .380.

I've tried the Ruger LC9, the Taurus 709 Slim, the Beretta Nano, all of them are just to big and no smaller than my Taurus 740 slim.

So now I'm face with the dilemma of should I just get another .380 (wife now carries the LCP) or suck it up and carry the 740 Slim?

With winter approaching, at least I'll have a jacket on most of the time and could maybe do OWB carry for awhile...

There's one of the big gun shows that comes around a few times a year coming up in early December by me. I think I'll go to that just to put my hands on a bunch of different models and see how they all compare but so far I don't think anything better than the LCP exist.

If I've missed some glaring option out there, please do tell me. I feel like I've looked at everything that exist in the pocket carry market.

[oldsmoboat]

I am sure everyone does this but no one said it so...

It's fine to take cheap reloads to the range to practice. But, you need to run a box or two of the same ammo as your self defense loads to be sure they run in your gun and to make sure you are familiar with the recoil, aim points etc.

[boomhower]

Originally Posted by shortylickens

Alright this is one of those times I need to be a jerk (deliberately, not accidentally), but this isnt quite true, sir.

On meat and gel tests the 380 speer gold dot destroys just as much as a 9mm speer gold dot, similar with the hydra shoks and other common man stoppers these days. The main advantage 9mm has is in punching through heavy leather & denim jackets and still keeping its power, so as to expand inside flesh.

I've watched a buttload of vids and many people use sides of beef to illustrate this concept.

The problem with 380 is penetration, or lack there of with SD rounds. With 380 you really have to pick between expansion and penetration. With a FMJ you get good penetration but a tiny wound track. With 380 you get a decent wound track but penetration is lacking. Thick winter clothing or an obstruction before hitting COM(think an arm) is going to seriously compromise performance. If carry 380 I would seriously consider a hopped up botique round if you want a HP.

I'm not trying to talk trash about 380, it's a fine round for what it is. What it boils down to is compromise. I don't care what caliber you choose you are compromising something. Whether it be round performance(IMHO 380 and smaller), capacity(45 and bigger), gun size(varies on the person), recoil(mostly 40), ammo cost(hell, just about everything these days), ammo availability(varies on location), etc. You are compromising. You choose what's more important to you and go with that round. Far and away the two most important parts of this is always carrying and being comfortable with what you carry. Your much better off carrying and being comfortable with a 380 than getting in a bind and the big bore 45 your buddies talking you into buying is sitting at home because you can't carry it comfortably. Always carry and be comfortable and well practiced. That will do more good than having a something you don't like or aren't proficient with.

[irishScott]

Originally Posted by boomhower

Then you need to carry a bigger gun. A 380 is a poor self defense round. It's certainly better than nothing. I suggest a Kahr CM9. It's still very pocketable, had decent sites that can be upgraded to better ones, and is 9mm. And it's cheap, less than $400 at most shops.

I said for form factor. CM9/PM9 is a few oz heavier than my P238 and slightly larger. P238 is just about the max I'd consider for pocket carry. Now if I ever decided to IWB I'd obviously upgrade.

[irishScott]

Originally Posted by boomhower

The problem with 380 is penetration, or lack there of with SD rounds. With 380 you really have to pick between expansion and penetration. With a FMJ you get good penetration but a tiny wound track. With 380 you get a decent wound track but penetration is lacking. Thick winter clothing or an obstruction before hitting COM(think an arm) is going to seriously compromise performance. If carry 380 I would seriously consider a hopped up botique round if you want a HP.

I'm not trying to talk trash about 380, it's a fine round for what it is. What it boils down to is compromise. I don't care what caliber you choose you are compromising something. Whether it be round performance(IMHO 380 and smaller), capacity(45 and bigger), gun size(varies on the person), recoil(mostly 40), ammo cost(hell, just about everything these days), ammo availability(varies on location), etc. You are compromising. You choose what's more important to you and go with that round. Far and away the two most important parts of this is always carrying and being comfortable with what you carry. Your much better off carrying and being comfortable with a 380 than getting in a bind and the big bore 45 your buddies talking you into buying is sitting at home because you can't carry it comfortably. Always carry and be comfortable and well practiced. That will do more good than having a something you don't like or aren't proficient with.

Penetration found: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H9M6...ure=plpp_video

No .380 will never be as good a 9 overall, but it's adequate IMO. And for pocket carry there isn't a 9mm out there that beats a .380 in the size/weight department.

[irishScott]

Originally Posted by Charlie98

Amen! All your fine motor skills will go away and you are standing there like a caveman with a club. NO place for tiny safetys or trying to rack the slide on an unchambered pistol. NO place for a pistol you have to dig around in your pocket for (sorry pocket pistol carriers... I wouldn't carry it that way, but that's me,) or for a pistol that you have a hard time manipulating or controlling under stress.

Safety on a P238 isn't tiny and with proper training it's very easy to actuate quickly. But yeah it is a training issue. If you don't train enough to get the system down to muscle memory, you're better off with no safety.

As for drawing from the pocket, depends on the pants, but I'd liken it to pulling up a shirt to access an IWB rig. Get a good pocket holster, don't put anything else in the pocket, and there's little practical difference IMO.

[kage69]

I don't care for the .380ACP all that much, but if I had to carry one I'd probably go with the LCP. They are super comfortable to carry, no doubt there.

I think for something really small I'd rather have a lightweight J-frame loaded with +P Gold Dots.

[Binarycow]

I got this gun below by S&W. It's amazingly built and is fairly accurate at short range at only 15 oz. It's small enough to carry in a shorts pocket and will fire 0.38 special +p. Kicks like a mule with +p though.

[pontifex]

Originally Posted by boomhower

The problem with 380 is penetration, or lack there of with SD rounds. With 380 you really have to pick between expansion and penetration. With a FMJ you get good penetration but a tiny wound track. With 380 you get a decent wound track but penetration is lacking. Thick winter clothing or an obstruction before hitting COM(think an arm) is going to seriously compromise performance. If carry 380 I would seriously consider a hopped up botique round if you want a HP.

I'm not trying to talk trash about 380, it's a fine round for what it is. What it boils down to is compromise. I don't care what caliber you choose you are compromising something. Whether it be round performance(IMHO 380 and smaller), capacity(45 and bigger), gun size(varies on the person), recoil(mostly 40), ammo cost(hell, just about everything these days), ammo availability(varies on location), etc. You are compromising. You choose what's more important to you and go with that round. Far and away the two most important parts of this is always carrying and being comfortable with what you carry. Your much better off carrying and being comfortable with a 380 than getting in a bind and the big bore 45 your buddies talking you into buying is sitting at home because you can't carry it comfortably. Always carry and be comfortable and well practiced. That will do more good than having a something you don't like or aren't proficient with.

alternate fmj and hp in the mag.

[kage69]

Originally Posted by Binarycow

I got this gun below by S&W. It's amazingly built and is fairly accurate at short range at only 15 oz. It's small enough to carry in a shorts pocket and will fire 0.38 special +p. Kicks like a mule with +p though.

Bought that for my wife. She loves it and is a hell of a shot with it too, no laser required with her!

[OverVolt]

Why .380 over 9mm? 9mm is cheaper on the ammo side. For what you get in .380, its kind of a rip off.

[irishScott]

Originally Posted by OverVolt

Why .380 over 9mm? 9mm is cheaper on the ammo side. For what you get in .380, its kind of a rip off.

.380s are typically smaller/lighter and therefore more suitable for pocket carry.

[shortylickens]

PSA the Kahr CM9, Beretta Nano, and Sig P290 are all acceptable pocket 9mm handguns, if you have giant pockets.

[HybridSquirrel]

Ruger LCP

this was the first response. /Thread

[OverVolt]

Originally Posted by irishScott

.380s are typically smaller/lighter and therefore more suitable for pocket carry.

It shouldn't be THAT big of a deal. If a single-stack 9mm is too big carrying at all is probably a bad idea. I'm guessing people try to carry .45's and .40's and get sick of lugging it around everyday and go the total opposite and get a .380acp when the happy medium 9mm with its cheap practice ammo has been there the whole time .

[OverVolt]

Originally Posted by shortylickens

PSA the Kahr CM9, Beretta Nano, and Sig P290 are all acceptable pocket 9mm handguns, if you have giant pockets.

Pocket carry is bad. I just feel like its important enough to warrant a holster eh?

[shortylickens]

Originally Posted by OverVolt

It shouldn't be THAT big of a deal. If a single-stack 9mm is too big carrying at all is probably a bad idea. I'm guessing people try to carry .45's and .40's and get sick of lugging it around everyday and go the total opposite and get a .380acp when the happy medium 9mm with its cheap practice ammo has been there the whole time .

Go hold a P290 and LCP together at the same time, you'll see.

[highland145]

Originally Posted by shortylickens

PSA the Kahr CM9, Beretta Nano, and Sig P290 are all acceptable pocket 9mm handguns, if you have giant pockets.

On my list...when I have some $$ to blow. Will replace my Taurus .38 untralite.

Big pockets...Dockers every day.

Originally Posted by OverVolt

Pocket carry is bad. I just feel like its important enough to warrant a holster eh?

Desantes Nemesis. Problem solved.