Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Hardware and Technology > CPUs and Overclocking

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals
· Free Stuff
· Contests and Sweepstakes
· Black Friday 2012
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-21-2013, 10:55 AM   #76
AtenRa
Diamond Member
 
AtenRa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 3,686
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelUser2000 View Post
-Point is well made about the ARM cores

AMD's Bobcat is nowhere near advantageous enough over Atom for Hondo to make up for the clock speed difference of 80%. Considering how Temash is staying at the same clock, I bet on CPU Atom won't be disadvantaged.

Check out this benchmark: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu...l_4.html#sect2

Atom D2500 is a Hyperthreading disabled Atom, meaning we can do close comparisons with E-350 per clock.

D2500 is clocked 16% higher than the E-350
E-350 is in average only 30.7% faster than the D2500. Meaning its clock per clock advantage is at 52%, at best. You'd need Temash to perform ~18% better per clock to equal the Atom Z2760. That can happen, but it won't result in a win for AMD. I also think you have been drinking too much of AMD's Kool-Aid. The lowest Temash TDP is at a still high 3.9W.
Hondo is a DUAL CORE, 80 SPs at 75mm2 at 40nm. Z-60 is a DUAL core 1GHz with 4.5W TDP.

I have said a DUAL core, 64 SPs Temash at half of Hondos TDP, that means a DUAL core at 1.1GHz (+ 15% higher IPC than Hondo) + 64 Radeon SPs at ~2.2W TDP (Including FCH).
That Temash SoC could be close to 60mm2 and can put to shame the Intel Z2460 both in CPU (remember ATOM Z2460 is a SINGLE core + HT) and especially in iGPU performance at the ~same power usage.

Temash 3.9W will be a Quad core + 128(or more) SPs
AtenRa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 12:06 PM   #77
CHADBOGA
Senior Member
 
CHADBOGA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 510
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare View Post
Look at their so-called "Intel Retail Edge" program where they are selling 3770K's for $105. You can't tell me the margins on those chips are 60% at that price point. They are probably closer to 10%.
I've seen Process Technology experts in recent times suggest that it wouldn't cost Intel more than $10 to fab a i7 4 Core CPU.
__________________
AMDZone = Westboro Baptist Church
CHADBOGA is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 01:05 PM   #78
ShintaiDK
Diamond Member
 
ShintaiDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 5,911
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHADBOGA View Post
I've seen Process Technology experts in recent times suggest that it wouldn't cost Intel more than $10 to fab a i7 4 Core CPU.
Only if R&D is free. Thats the catch.
__________________
MiniITX - Intel i5 4670
Board - Intel DH87FB
SSD - Crucial M500 480GB mSATA
Memory - Crucial Ballistix Sport 2x8GB 1600Mhz 1.35V
Case - Sugo SG08B with 600W PSU
GPU - Zotac GTX 680 2GB
ShintaiDK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 01:14 PM   #79
Idontcare
Administrator
Elite Member
 
Idontcare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 19,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHADBOGA View Post
I've seen Process Technology experts in recent times suggest that it wouldn't cost Intel more than $10 to fab a i7 4 Core CPU.
You mean an analysis like this one?
Idontcare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 01:15 PM   #80
Idontcare
Administrator
Elite Member
 
Idontcare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 19,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShintaiDK View Post
Only if R&D is free. Thats the catch.
And SG&A.

I know what those "production cost" numbers mean, and I also know what they don't mean. And to be sure I didn't forget the difference when I drafted my post discussing the economics of the retail edge program.
Idontcare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 02:00 PM   #81
CHADBOGA
Senior Member
 
CHADBOGA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 510
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare View Post
You mean an analysis like this one?
No, but that was very comprehensive and impressive.

The person I am thinking of provided engineering services to Intel's Haifa site and they were admittedly only talking about the wafer and testing costs, not all of Intel's other expenses which need to amortised.
__________________
AMDZone = Westboro Baptist Church
CHADBOGA is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 03:37 PM   #82
Idontcare
Administrator
Elite Member
 
Idontcare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 19,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHADBOGA View Post
No, but that was very comprehensive and impressive.

The person I am thinking of provided engineering services to Intel's Haifa site and they were admittedly only talking about the wafer and testing costs, not all of Intel's other expenses which need to amortised.
It speaks to the additive cost of building one more chip provided the existing capacity is underutilized.

The cost of production is quite low, that is why the memory guys can get away with selling chips for a buck a piece. But it is tough to have a sustainable business at those prices.

Look at TSMC for example, they sell wafers for thousands of bucks a piece but are not raking in 80% GM. TSMC's 4Q12 GM was 47.2%. If Intel could really produce chips for $10 each then they'd be in the foundry business as well, raking in 120% gross margins. (heh, and they just may, lets see what happens come 10nm )

You have to admit, $105 for an i7-3770K is the kind of price-point that makes you a tad jelly

I paid $330 for my first one, and $130 shipped for my second one. My only regret is that I paid $460 for two 3770k's when I could have had a 3930k for roughly the same price
Idontcare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 03:51 PM   #83
ShintaiDK
Diamond Member
 
ShintaiDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 5,911
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare View Post
I paid $330 for my first one, and $130 shipped for my second one. My only regret is that I paid $460 for two 3770k's when I could have had a 3930k for roughly the same price
Atleast you still have 1 working CPU instead of none then
__________________
MiniITX - Intel i5 4670
Board - Intel DH87FB
SSD - Crucial M500 480GB mSATA
Memory - Crucial Ballistix Sport 2x8GB 1600Mhz 1.35V
Case - Sugo SG08B with 600W PSU
GPU - Zotac GTX 680 2GB
ShintaiDK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 03:56 PM   #84
Idontcare
Administrator
Elite Member
 
Idontcare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 19,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShintaiDK View Post
Atleast you still have 1 working CPU instead of none then
True that!
Idontcare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 04:56 PM   #85
Haserath
Senior Member
 
Haserath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 561
Default

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6476/a...ebook-review/3

SB Celeron@800mhz trumping an A15@1.7ghz.

Arm still has a long way to go. The battery life isn't so great for Sandy Bridge, but Haswell is making a big stride there.

Atom isn't far behind either. The update this year will show us what it has got.
Haserath is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 05:34 PM   #86
ShintaiDK
Diamond Member
 
ShintaiDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 5,911
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haserath View Post
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6476/a...ebook-review/3

SB Celeron@800mhz trumping an A15@1.7ghz.

Arm still has a long way to go. The battery life isn't so great for Sandy Bridge, but Haswell is making a big stride there.

Atom isn't far behind either. The update this year will show us what it has got.
Yep, ARM is nowhere near x86 performance. Also that 847 is actually obsolete and replaced with a cheaper and faster 887. Still 32nm tho. Going to 22nm alone should yield quite some benefits. Add a 32nm chipset as well instead of 65nm and boom. ARM back to phones only.
__________________
MiniITX - Intel i5 4670
Board - Intel DH87FB
SSD - Crucial M500 480GB mSATA
Memory - Crucial Ballistix Sport 2x8GB 1600Mhz 1.35V
Case - Sugo SG08B with 600W PSU
GPU - Zotac GTX 680 2GB
ShintaiDK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 05:40 PM   #87
GillyBillyDilly
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare View Post
True that!

Completely off topic, but as the OP I think I may. Why is it such a huge deal to go to 450 mm wafers from 300?
What makes it so difficult and expensive?
GillyBillyDilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 05:57 PM   #88
jpiniero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GillyBillyDilly View Post
Completely off topic, but as the OP I think I may. Why is it such a huge deal to go to 450 mm wafers from 300?
What makes it so difficult and expensive?
You'd get more chips at 450 mm obviously. The problem is that it would take too long to do the wafer to make economic sense using the current tools.
jpiniero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 07:16 PM   #89
Idontcare
Administrator
Elite Member
 
Idontcare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 19,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GillyBillyDilly View Post
Completely off topic, but as the OP I think I may. Why is it such a huge deal to go to 450 mm wafers from 300?
What makes it so difficult and expensive?
The industry transitions wafer sizes about every 10 yrs for pretty much the same economic reasons that motivates it to transition process nodes every 2-3 yrs.

And it all comes back to Moore's Law - cost reduction at the "per component" level in the manufactured IC.

Increasing the wafer size results in 2.25x more chips per wafer when comparing the same chip produced on a 300mm wafer versus a 450mm wafer.

The process time for many process steps in the fab are invariant to the size of the wafer. Meaning regardless whether the wafer is 100mm or 450mm, the time it takes to process the wafer through a given step in the process flow would be the same process time.

That tends to be true for nearly all process steps that involve liquids (cleans), gases and plasmas (film deposition and etching), heating (dopant activation). It doesn't work out that way for litho steps where larger wafers just means more processing time in the litho tool.

In the end, when you sum up all the opportunities to reduce costs, and factor in the elevated tool costs and fab costs that come with the larger 450mm-capable tools, the fabs tend to realize roughly 25-30% cost savings over producing the same chips on the next smaller sized wafer (300mm vs 450mm in this case).

That is the motivation. The challenge is actually getting all those tools functioning at comparable process speeds and reliability as the 300mm tools they are supplanting in the process flow.

Within-wafer variability is a big issue when it comes to the impact on parametric and functional yields. Your cost savings at 450mm can quickly come undone if your yields are off by 20%. (this was a big issue for 300mm fabs around 2001 when we transitioned from 200mm)

That is what makes it difficult.

What makes it expensive is that all that upfront toolset development cost and process optimization expense must be recouped in selling those tools over the first few years, but the pool of potential 450mm customers is very small. So you won't be selling many 450mm tools early-on, that makes the few tools you do sell become all the more expensive (unless you are Unicef and you happen to be in the business of making and selling your tools at cost for the customer's benefit )
Idontcare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 04:13 AM   #90
GillyBillyDilly
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare View Post
The industry transitions wafer sizes about every 10 yrs for pretty much the same economic reasons that motivates it to transition process nodes every 2-3 yrs.

And it all comes back to Moore's Law - cost reduction at the "per component" level in the manufactured IC.

Increasing the wafer size results in 2.25x more chips per wafer when comparing the same chip produced on a 300mm wafer versus a 450mm wafer.

The process time for many process steps in the fab are invariant to the size of the wafer. Meaning regardless whether the wafer is 100mm or 450mm, the time it takes to process the wafer through a given step in the process flow would be the same process time.

That tends to be true for nearly all process steps that involve liquids (cleans), gases and plasmas (film deposition and etching), heating (dopant activation). It doesn't work out that way for litho steps where larger wafers just means more processing time in the litho tool.

In the end, when you sum up all the opportunities to reduce costs, and factor in the elevated tool costs and fab costs that come with the larger 450mm-capable tools, the fabs tend to realize roughly 25-30% cost savings over producing the same chips on the next smaller sized wafer (300mm vs 450mm in this case).

That is the motivation. The challenge is actually getting all those tools functioning at comparable process speeds and reliability as the 300mm tools they are supplanting in the process flow.

Within-wafer variability is a big issue when it comes to the impact on parametric and functional yields. Your cost savings at 450mm can quickly come undone if your yields are off by 20%. (this was a big issue for 300mm fabs around 2001 when we transitioned from 200mm)

That is what makes it difficult.

What makes it expensive is that all that upfront toolset development cost and process optimization expense must be recouped in selling those tools over the first few years, but the pool of potential 450mm customers is very small. So you won't be selling many 450mm tools early-on, that makes the few tools you do sell become all the more expensive (unless you are Unicef and you happen to be in the business of making and selling your tools at cost for the customer's benefit )
So why 450 mm and not say, 1000 mm?
GillyBillyDilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 05:53 AM   #91
Lonbjerg
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Denmark
Posts: 3,929
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GillyBillyDilly View Post
So why 450 mm and not say, 1000 mm?
AFAIK it gets harder and harder to ensure consistency the larger the wafers gets.
__________________
Don't get my personality confused with my attitude.
My personality is who I am...my attitude depends on who YOU are ^_^

990X supporting Titan...socket 1366 gone mean ^^
Lonbjerg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 09:57 AM   #92
Idontcare
Administrator
Elite Member
 
Idontcare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 19,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GillyBillyDilly View Post
So why 450 mm and not say, 1000 mm?
It goes right back to the same fundamentals that are the cause of node shrinking too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare View Post
The industry transitions wafer sizes about every 10 yrs for pretty much the same economic reasons that motivates it to transition process nodes every 2-3 yrs.
Why do successive nodes tend to target a 70.7% linear shrink and a 50% areal shrink? And why every 2yrs?

Why not make the shrink targets and timeline more aggressive? Why not a 50% linear shrink, 25% areal shrink, and do it every 6 months?

Short Answer: Money

Long Answer: The Project Management Triangle



^ you can prioritize 2 of the 3, but no more than two.

Scope (shrink targets) and schedule (cadence) are constrained by cost (R&D budget).

The industry settled on a fairly standardized node scaling target (70.7% linear, 50% areal) as well as a common cadence (2yrs) not because of R&D cost goals but because of competitive pressures which drove R&D costs to be such that a 2yr/50% areal node shrink was the optimal business strategy.

If you didn't fund your R&D efforts as needed to enable the R&D team to roll out a new node every 2yrs which had a 50% areal shrink factor then your products on the marketplace would be at a competitive disadvantage...so you funded appropriately (if you had the means to do so).

It was this same competitive motivation that resulted in the foundries having half-nodes. Baby-stepping in one year increments. You probably noticed that as soon as TSMC was no longer competing with the other foundries (post 55nm) in terms of node release timeline the half-node option completely disappeared. TSMC doesn't need it to compete with other foundries, so they don't spend money developing it...and the other foundries can't afford to fund the development of half-nodes anymore as they can barely afford to develop the full nodes on a somewhat competitive timeline (and even that is questionable).

Companies that did not have the means started to slip, their node cadence became 2.5yrs, or 3yrs, or the areal shink factor was something less than 50%, etc.

All right, so what does this have to do with increasing wafer size? The very concept of increasing the wafer size is a product of the very concept of shrinking the node - it is about cost reduction and remaining competitive.

And it is bound by the same constraints - scope (targeted wafer size) and schedule (timeline) are constrained by cost (R&D budget).

Traditionally the scope of wafer-size increases was on the order of 1.25x-1.78x, but the schedule (cadence of wafer size increases) was much shorter then (~2-3 yrs) versus what it is now (~10-12yrs).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rogression.jpg

Over the past 2 decades the industry has standardized on the scope (this was your original question) as being 2.25x increase in wafer surface area. A 75mm wafer had 2.25x the surface area of a 50mm wafer, 150mm had 2.25x the area of a 100mm wafer, 300mm has 2.25x the area of a 200mm wafer, and when it goes into production a 450mm wafer will have 2.25x the area of a 300mm wafer.

2.25x area increase (the scope of the wafer increase project) on a 10-12yr rollout schedule is basically the optimum use of the industry's R&D money when it comes to creating the opportunity to reduce production costs by ~25-30%.

If they tried to go from 300mm to 1000mm then the timeline would have to be drastically relaxed (goal might be to put it into production in 2030) or the R&D investment would have to be significantly higher (which would then reduce the net cost benefit of the increased wafer size).

Same reasoning behind why Intel doesn't just skip 14nm and 10nm and go straight from 22nm to 7nm. They could if they wanted, but it would cost a bundle to make it happen and then all the economic motivation for the creating the shrink in the first place goes out the window.
Idontcare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 10:52 AM   #93
notty22
Diamond Member
 
notty22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Beantown
Posts: 3,217
Default




AMD hires Two Senior Engineers from Apple and Qualcomm

AMD, making some moves?
__________________
I5 750@3940mhz , Gigabyte p55 ud4p
1600mhz ddr3 4GB
GTX 660 2gb SC
Let's make sure history never forgets... the name... 'Enterprise'. Picard out.
notty22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 12:42 PM   #94
GillyBillyDilly
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare View Post
It goes right back to the same fundamentals that are the cause of node shrinking too.
Thank you.
GillyBillyDilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.