Why can't Congress just repeal the income tax and/or the payroll tax?

[Capt Caveman]

Originally Posted by bfdd

taxation is theft, if they didn't forcibly steal from you, none of you would donate to the Federal Government of Republicans and Democrats, so why are you ok with them taking it from you at the point of a gun? To much indoctrination it's sad. Society will function without taxes, charities will step up and people will take care of their own. Such a fallacy is it that "the poor won't get fire service if there's no taxes!" how? Why wouldn't someone, especially if they live in the area, not want to provide at minimum volunteer fire services? It makes clear economic sense to be prepared for such things, even at the point of doing it for "free". So you either think poor people are to fucking stupid to manage on their own and you want to run their lives for them or like I've been going on for awhile now you've simply replaced God with Government and you pray at their alter instead.

Hurricane Katrina, Irene, Sandy, etc...

[momeNt]

Originally Posted by Capt Caveman

Hurricane Katrina, Irene, Sandy, etc...

So you are saying that government is essential because home insurance can't be provided for people living in these areas without subsidies? Maybe market forces would actually have redistributed where people lived because FEMA subsidies hide the cost and the risk of living in such areas?

Use your brain caveman.

[Capt Caveman]

Originally Posted by momeNt

So you are saying that government is essential because home insurance can't be provided for people living in these areas without subsidies? Maybe market forces would actually have redistributed where people lived because FEMA subsidies hide the cost and the risk of living in such areas?

Use your brain caveman.

/face palm

Wow. Scary.

[momeNt]

Originally Posted by Capt Caveman

/face palm

Wow. Scary.

Head use not found

Lost cause.

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by Capt Caveman

Hurricane Katrina, Irene, Sandy, etc...

Each of which occurred in a system where people were taught to be dependent on government, so I'm not sure why you'd be surprised that people act like lost children following a catastrophe. You've essentially told them to not be independent and to not develop their own systems of preparedness, while taking all their excess resources away from them in the form of taxes so that they've got nothing left with which to take care of themselves in the event of a disaster.

This is what government creates. Congratulations.

[zanejohnson]

Originally Posted by bfdd

taxation is theft, if they didn't forcibly steal from you, none of you would donate to the Federal Government of Republicans and Democrats, so why are you ok with them taking it from you at the point of a gun? To much indoctrination it's sad. Society will function without taxes, charities will step up and people will take care of their own. Such a fallacy is it that "the poor won't get fire service if there's no taxes!" how? Why wouldn't someone, especially if they live in the area, not want to provide at minimum volunteer fire services? It makes clear economic sense to be prepared for such things, even at the point of doing it for "free". So you either think poor people are to fucking stupid to manage on their own and you want to run their lives for them or like I've been going on for awhile now you've simply replaced God with Government and you pray at their alter instead.

great post. my thoughts exactly

i guess technically i'm an anarchist

[halik]

Originally Posted by zanejohnson

great post. my thoughts exactly

i guess technically i'm an anarchist

You know you hit something deep and profound when zanejohnson agrees with you...

[PC Surgeon]

Originally Posted by ivwshane

And exactly what qualifies as "small government"?

Government was meant to protect the rights of the citizens, not baby sit your ass from the cradle to the grave.

[Atreus21]

Originally Posted by Anarchist420

I don't understand why they can't because if they repealed at least one of them then spending would have to be reduced drastically.

I particularly hate the payroll tax because it is expensive to keep track of and because it is automatically ~10% of your income taxed away.

I do think that with prices going up like crazy the govt will probably have high income tax receipts for the next fiscal year but that's merely an excuse (not a reason) for the govt to think it can balance its budget.

Anyone else think repealing at least one of them is a good idea?

Anyway, if they don't repeal at least one of them, then the Federal govt may as well start taxing real property for the first time since John Adams was president... I want it to be all or nothing so we can see who was right (Jefferson who would favor no govt) and who was wrong (Hamilton who was a proto-National Socialist).

Sure I wish they'd repeal it. Isn't the payroll tax extremely regressive?

[Atreus21]

Originally Posted by dank69

We have a $1T deficit and people still loan the government money. What makes you think that people will stop loaning the government money just because we cut taxes even more? Besides, it doesn't seem like government spending is constrained by revenue at all, does it?

Then that is a magnificent reason not only to not raise taxes, but to cut them as far as we possibly can. If government spending is not constrained by revenue, then why on earth should we give them any revenue in the first place?

[Incorruptible]

Originally Posted by PC Surgeon

Government was meant to protect the rights of the citizens, not baby sit your ass from the cradle to the grave.

This is the truth, Government only makes the problems worse it doesn't solve the proble

[momeNt]

Originally Posted by Atreus21

Then that is a magnificent reason not only to not raise taxes, but to cut them as far as we possibly can. If government spending is not constrained by revenue, then why on earth should we give them any revenue in the first place?

The idea is that there would then be too much money in circulation. Doing that would make the tax completely an inflation tax, historically speaking the inflation tax hurts the poor, so it would be entirely regressive. Inflation probably benefits the wealthy, the government does a poor job of taking away the benefit though, so the current fiat system is just a runaway freight train towards massive disproportion of wealth.

[3chordcharlie]

Originally Posted by techs

Small enough to fit in your bedroom.

This made my day.

(apologies to Incorruptible if this statement wasn't fair to you)

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by PC Surgeon

Government was meant to protect the rights of the citizens, not baby sit your ass from the cradle to the grave.

Tell me, how can government protect the rights of citizens if its very existence is dependent on violating the rights of citizens? Tax collection isn't voluntary. It's carried out by threat of deadly violence.

The real truth is, government was never meant to protect the rights of citizens. That's just what the people who use government to exploit you brainwash you with to get you to accept government.

[lupi]

that amendment should be repealed.

[KMFJD]

Originally Posted by bfdd

taxation is theft, if they didn't forcibly steal from you, none of you would donate to the Federal Government of Republicans and Democrats, so why are you ok with them taking it from you at the point of a gun? To much indoctrination it's sad. Society will function without taxes, charities will step up and people will take care of their own. Such a fallacy is it that "the poor won't get fire service if there's no taxes!" how? Why wouldn't someone, especially if they live in the area, not want to provide at minimum volunteer fire services? It makes clear economic sense to be prepared for such things, even at the point of doing it for "free". So you either think poor people are to fucking stupid to manage on their own and you want to run their lives for them or like I've been going on for awhile now you've simply replaced God with Government and you pray at their alter instead.

It's people that think like this that hold the USA back

[nextJin]

Pretty sure I heard if you cut spending to what it was in the last few years of Clinton after adjusted for inflation you could abolish the income tax.

[Rainsford]

Sure, as soon as someone proposes a reasonable alternative. It's not enough to just complain that you don't like taxes...my response is "well me neither, is this the first time you've had that thought?". Massive tax cuts sound great, but how do you deal with the consequences of doing that?

[nextJin]

Originally Posted by KMFJD

It's people that think like this that hold the USA back

I always thought it was our outstanding Education system, which funny enough skyrocketed down from the top 3 in Math and Science after the Department of Education came about. Good thing government was there to show us how it is done.

[Anarchist420]

Originally Posted by nextJin

Pretty sure I heard if you cut spending to what it was in the last few years of Clinton after adjusted for inflation you could abolish the income tax.

If the income tax was abolished, then spending would have to be cut to the level you mentioned. If we can't get rid of the spending, then we should get rid of what enables the govt to spend.

Originally Posted by Rainsford

Massive tax cuts sound great, but how do you deal with the consequences of doing that?

The consequences will hurt most in the short term, but it's necessary for a good future.

That said, it's just a fucking pipe dream of libertarians, so don't worry about liberty coming here. I think we may have a VAT coming our way along with all the (short term) extra income tax revenue that should come from QE3 (as my friend alluded to)... all of that may very well bring in a Federal surplus, but then there will be a huge correction right after and there will have been less market savings than there otherwise would've been.

If they could just cut the god damn DoD to 5% of what it was this previous fiscal year and freeze it there, cut 1/3 of the bureaucracy spending, freeze it, and keep it there, plus abolish all subsidies to nvidia and AMD (with granting neither them nor intel new patents) without increasing revenue then that would be a somewhat acceptable start. When the DoE can get a few ten thousand good GPUs and "the consumer" can't easily get any, then you know the State has become a Leviathan. If people would stop being so satisfied with the shit we're given by these big corporations and start buying older, better stuff then I think that would help crash those asinine institutions too.

[Agent11]

This thread has an extra serving of fail sauce, with a side of ffs.

[shadow9d9]

Originally Posted by Incorruptible

You do realize that fiscal conservatives are different from social "conservatives"? Or do you just prefer to label them all the same?

"Fiscal conservatives" are a fantasy. They never have and never will exist in any government.

[Atreus21]

Originally Posted by momeNt

The idea is that there would then be too much money in circulation. Doing that would make the tax completely an inflation tax, historically speaking the inflation tax hurts the poor, so it would be entirely regressive. Inflation probably benefits the wealthy, the government does a poor job of taking away the benefit though, so the current fiat system is just a runaway freight train towards massive disproportion of wealth.

I don't see how the government having the money instead of the individual constitutes less money in circulation. It's not like the government isn't spending it (putting it into circulation).

[Anarchist420]

Originally Posted by Atreus21

I don't see how the government having the money instead of the individual constitutes less money in circulation. It's not like the government isn't spending it (putting it into circulation).

Individuals would be more likely to save what they weren't taxed. If capital gains were not taxed at all, then that could strengthen the dollar. So what they should do is not tax capital gains, give more exemptions for workers and maybe even reduce the top marginal rate for them closer to zero than to 35%. They can then eliminate the payroll tax too.

They also need to tax all businesses the same and at a flat marginal rate of 15%... they can leave in all the deductions (and give a 75k exemption to help startups) since they'd be worth less than they are now and so that individuals could use them. That way, businesses would probably being paying more than individuals.