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 10-03-2008, 11:01 AM #1 IceBergSLiM Lifer     Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: pistol wavin' new haven Posts: 29,943 flash point vs. boiling point say i have 80 proof 40% alc/vol rum how do i determine flash point and boiling point? __________________ PoopiePoems.Com - Keeping you regular since the 80's Team Bitcoin
 10-03-2008, 11:17 AM #2 Fenixgoon Lifer     Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lanesplitting on the 405 Posts: 24,174 flash point vs. boiling point the boiling point is when the vapor pressure of the liquid is equal to the atmospheric pressure. if i were really ambitious, i'd look it up in a thermo book, because generally it goes something like: ln(P) = A*T + B*ln(T) + C/T^2. you also have to account for the fact that you have a mixture (but it has complete solubility). so we'd use raoult's law and the other one, which i can't remember off the top of my head, heh. oh thermo, it's only been a year, but i've forgotten it all already :brokenheart: __________________ Official Member of the ATOT Night Crew heatware
10-03-2008, 11:19 AM   #3
IceBergSLiM
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flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
 Originally posted by: Fenixgoon the boiling point is when the vapor pressure of the liquid is equal to the atmospheric pressure.
how do i figure that out for an 80 proof rum?

10-03-2008, 11:31 AM   #4
IceBergSLiM
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Join Date: Jul 2000
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flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
 Originally posted by: Fenixgoon the boiling point is when the vapor pressure of the liquid is equal to the atmospheric pressure. if i were really ambitious, i'd look it up in a thermo book, because generally it goes something like: ln(P) = A*T + B*ln(T) + C/T^2. you also have to account for the fact that you have a mixture (but it has complete solubility). so we'd use raoult's law and the other one, which i can't remember off the top of my head, heh. oh thermo, it's only been a year, but i've forgotten it all already :brokenheart:
yeah that might as well be chinese for mje what are p, a, t, b, mean?

 10-03-2008, 11:31 AM #5 gorcorps aka Brandon     Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Bend Posts: 27,080 flash point vs. boiling point 80 proof rum means 40% by volume alcohol, which is ethanol. The other 60% is assumed to be water. Ethanol has a BP of 78.4°C and water at 100°C. You can use those temps and fractions to estimate the boiling point (with the assumption your atmospheric pressure is 1atm or 760mmHg(torr)). __________________ -So sayeth Brandon, knower of things PSN: gorcorps|||Steam: gorcorps HEATWARE
 10-03-2008, 02:31 PM #6 IceBergSLiM Lifer     Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: pistol wavin' new haven Posts: 29,943 flash point vs. boiling point flashpoint anyone? __________________ PoopiePoems.Com - Keeping you regular since the 80's Team Bitcoin
 10-03-2008, 02:34 PM #7 Paperdoc Golden Member   Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,433 flash point vs. boiling point You could try requesting an MSDS Data Sheet from a distiller. Those are the sheets that specify a whole bunch of safety-realted info, required in all industrial workplaces to ensure workers are aware of all hazards and safety precutions. They will ALWAYS specify the Flash Point if there is one, and many contain the boiling point also. I don't know if 80-proof alcohol has a Flash Point. That is the temperature for a liquid at which it will spontaneously burst into flame without exposure to a direct ignition source. While the rum may burn when lit with a match, that is not the same thing.
10-03-2008, 02:34 PM   #8
Brainonska511
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flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
 Originally posted by: gorcorps 80 proof rum means 40% by volume alcohol, which is ethanol. The other 60% is assumed to be water. Ethanol has a BP of 78.4°C and water at 100°C. You can use those temps and fractions to estimate the boiling point (with the assumption your atmospheric pressure is 1atm or 760mmHg(torr)).
Even then, you don't need to estimate the boiling point, as the ethanol will hit the BP of 78.4C and start boiling off at that constant temperature. After the ethanol boils off, the temperature will continue to rise until it hits the boiling point of water. This is the general idea behind distillation (boiling and recondensing so that the alcohol ends up in greater and greater concentrations).

As far as flashpoint, isn't that the temperature at which it will combust?
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 10-03-2008, 02:36 PM #9 darkxshade Lifer   Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Podunk Posts: 13,756 flash point vs. boiling point flash point = 6.8 boiling point = 4.7 Flash point wins __________________ Don't argue with an idiot, first they'll bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
 10-03-2008, 02:56 PM #10 Tiamat Lifer     Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Stafford, VA Posts: 14,078 flash point vs. boiling point Um, flash point is completely unrelated to boiling point. Flash point is the minimum temperature required for the it to become ignitable in air. If you want to flash your rum, its not going to be very easy since its ethanol content is low. Pure ethanol flashes at 12.8 celcius. Flash point of 54% rum is about 22 celcius. Normal rum will be higher while Bacardi 151 will be in between 13C and 22C as you can see this trend...
10-03-2008, 03:01 PM   #11
Itchrelief
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,387
flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
 Originally posted by: Tiamat Um, flash point is completely unrelated to boiling point. Flash point is the minimum temperature required for the it to become ignitable in air.
I'm talking out of my arse here, but I would suppose it would have some relationship with the volatility of the flammable substance, since it is usually the vapors that combust.

By wildly making assumptions, I would think you'd probably need to know the minimum % of alcohol vapors in air to sustain combustion, then find at what temperature you will get a partial pressure of alcohol that corresponds to that %.

Assuming the above is true, lower boiling point means more vapors = lower flash point, assuming the combustion occurs at the same % of vapors in air.

10-03-2008, 03:04 PM   #12
Tiamat
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flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
Originally posted by: Itchrelief
Quote:
 Originally posted by: Tiamat Um, flash point is completely unrelated to boiling point. Flash point is the minimum temperature required for the it to become ignitable in air.
I'm talking out of my arse here, but I would suppose it would have some relationship with the volatility of the flammable substance, since it is usually the vapors that combust.

By wildly making assumptions, I would think you'd probably need to know the minimum % of alcohol vapors in air to sustain combustion, then find at what temperature you will get a partial pressure of alcohol that corresponds to that %.

Assuming the above is true, lower boiling point means more vapors = lower flash point, assuming the combustion occurs at the same % of vapors in air.
see my edits.

Alcohol won't behave linearly, however, a rough guess can be had with linear interpolation.

Problem with flash point is the second you remove the ignition source, the flame goes away. If you want the flame to remain you have to reach the Fire Point, which is somewhat higher.

For this reason, Bacardi 151 is relatively easy to keep on fire at room temperature conditions (while normal Bacardi rum is not as easy).

If you want a more exact Flash and boiling point, you will need a chemistry lab and learn rudimentary thermodynamics through wikipedia.

 10-03-2008, 03:13 PM #13 oldsmoboat Elite Member     Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Kaliforniastan Posts: 47,801 flash point vs. boiling point MSDS? EDIT Guess they don't have them for "food". __________________ Know anything about external PC connections? Motorcycles aren't dangerous, distracted drivers are!
10-03-2008, 03:14 PM   #14
IceBergSLiM
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Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: pistol wavin' new haven
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flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
Originally posted by: Tiamat
Quote:
Originally posted by: Itchrelief
Quote:
 Originally posted by: Tiamat Um, flash point is completely unrelated to boiling point. Flash point is the minimum temperature required for the it to become ignitable in air.
I'm talking out of my arse here, but I would suppose it would have some relationship with the volatility of the flammable substance, since it is usually the vapors that combust.

By wildly making assumptions, I would think you'd probably need to know the minimum % of alcohol vapors in air to sustain combustion, then find at what temperature you will get a partial pressure of alcohol that corresponds to that %.

Assuming the above is true, lower boiling point means more vapors = lower flash point, assuming the combustion occurs at the same % of vapors in air.
see my edits.

Alcohol won't behave linearly, however, a rough guess can be had with linear interpolation.

Problem with flash point is the second you remove the ignition source, the flame goes away. If you want the flame to remain you have to reach the Fire Point, which is somewhat higher.

For this reason, Bacardi 151 is relatively easy to keep on fire at room temperature conditions (while normal Bacardi rum is not as easy).

If you want a more exact Flash and boiling point, you will need a chemistry lab and learn rudimentary thermodynamics through wikipedia.
f that shit. lol

10-03-2008, 03:20 PM   #15
Tiamat
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 14,078
flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
Quote:
Originally posted by: Tiamat
Quote:
Originally posted by: Itchrelief
Quote:
 Originally posted by: Tiamat Um, flash point is completely unrelated to boiling point. Flash point is the minimum temperature required for the it to become ignitable in air.
I'm talking out of my arse here, but I would suppose it would have some relationship with the volatility of the flammable substance, since it is usually the vapors that combust.

By wildly making assumptions, I would think you'd probably need to know the minimum % of alcohol vapors in air to sustain combustion, then find at what temperature you will get a partial pressure of alcohol that corresponds to that %.

Assuming the above is true, lower boiling point means more vapors = lower flash point, assuming the combustion occurs at the same % of vapors in air.
see my edits.

Alcohol won't behave linearly, however, a rough guess can be had with linear interpolation.

Problem with flash point is the second you remove the ignition source, the flame goes away. If you want the flame to remain you have to reach the Fire Point, which is somewhat higher.

For this reason, Bacardi 151 is relatively easy to keep on fire at room temperature conditions (while normal Bacardi rum is not as easy).

If you want a more exact Flash and boiling point, you will need a chemistry lab and learn rudimentary thermodynamics through wikipedia.
f that shit. lol
If you have some extra rum why dont you just try the experiment?

All you need is a thermometer, and a heat source.

1. Put rum in cup with thermometer.
2. Keep fire extinguisher very close by
3. Test rum at room temperature with a lighter. Did it light? (Yes/No). If not, increase temperature.

4. Record the temperature that the rum flashed.
5. Record the temperature that the rum started boiling.

6. What did you learn from this experiment?

 10-03-2008, 03:21 PM #16 Eli Super ModeratorElite Member   Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 50,005 flash point vs. boiling point The boiling point of ethanol, as someone mentioned, is 173.1ºF. The flash point of 40% ethanol/60% water is 78.8ºF. That's probably close enough for your rum. __________________ http://www.bumblebeebatteries.com 2001 Honda Insight 5MT, MIMA #163P - 158,388 miles and counting as of 7/2011 Best Trip - 82.0MPG over 1200 miles 2001 Honda Insight 5MT - 450,000 miles and counting as of 2/2012 (Fiancee's) Best Trip - 92.4MPG over 400 miles 2000 Honda Insight 5MT, MIMA #173P, BCM Gauge, OBDIIC&C Gauge, Upgraded 8Ah battery - 227,248 miles and counting as of 10/2011 Best Trip - 83.1mpg over 458mi
10-03-2008, 03:22 PM   #17
Tiamat
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Stafford, VA
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flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
 Originally posted by: Eli The boiling point of ethanol, as someone mentioned, is 173.1ºF. The flash point of 40% ethanol/60% water is 78.8ºF. That's probably close enough for your rum.
Seems reasonable compared to linear extrapolation from the data I supplied earlier.

10-07-2008, 10:15 AM   #18
IceBergSLiM
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Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: pistol wavin' new haven
Posts: 29,943
flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
 Originally posted by: Eli The boiling point of ethanol, as someone mentioned, is 173.1ºF. The flash point of 40% ethanol/60% water is 78.8ºF. That's probably close enough for your rum.
so buy your calculation if I'm drinking rum on a hot summer day its going to explode?

10-07-2008, 10:25 AM   #19
DisgruntledVirus
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 11,790
flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
Quote:
 Originally posted by: Eli The boiling point of ethanol, as someone mentioned, is 173.1ºF. The flash point of 40% ethanol/60% water is 78.8ºF. That's probably close enough for your rum.
so buy your calculation if I'm drinking rum on a hot summer day its going to explode?
With an ignition source it could ignite and burn, but not explode. The flash point is not the temp where a vapor will explode, but instead where it will ignite. It may or may not continue burning when the ignition source is removed.

Quote:
 The flash point of a flammable liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can form an ignitable mixture in air. At this temperature the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed
per wiki

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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Texashiker So dont hate on me for jumping to conclusions without the reading the whole story.

10-07-2008, 10:30 AM   #20
IceBergSLiM
Lifer

Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: pistol wavin' new haven
Posts: 29,943
flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
Quote:
 Originally posted by: Eli The boiling point of ethanol, as someone mentioned, is 173.1ºF. The flash point of 40% ethanol/60% water is 78.8ºF. That's probably close enough for your rum.
so buy your calculation if I'm drinking rum on a hot summer day its going to explode?
sorry guess I'm confusing flash point with auto ignition point

10-07-2008, 10:38 AM   #21
RapidSnail
Diamond Member

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,258
flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
Quote:
 Originally posted by: Eli The boiling point of ethanol, as someone mentioned, is 173.1ºF. The flash point of 40% ethanol/60% water is 78.8ºF. That's probably close enough for your rum.
so buy your calculation if I'm drinking rum on a hot summer day its going to explode?
No. The liquid must be 78.8ºF for it to be ignitable. How many people drink bear at ~80 degrees on a hot summer day?

10-07-2008, 10:39 AM   #22
DisgruntledVirus
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 11,790
flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Quote:
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
Quote:
 Originally posted by: Eli The boiling point of ethanol, as someone mentioned, is 173.1ºF. The flash point of 40% ethanol/60% water is 78.8ºF. That's probably close enough for your rum.
so buy your calculation if I'm drinking rum on a hot summer day its going to explode?
No. The liquid must be 78.8ºF for it to be ignitable. How many people drink bear at ~80 degrees on a hot summer day?
I want to know how many people drink bear
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Texashiker So dont hate on me for jumping to conclusions without the reading the whole story.

10-07-2008, 11:00 AM   #23
alkemyst
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flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
Quote:
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
Quote:
 Originally posted by: Eli The boiling point of ethanol, as someone mentioned, is 173.1ºF. The flash point of 40% ethanol/60% water is 78.8ºF. That's probably close enough for your rum.
so buy your calculation if I'm drinking rum on a hot summer day its going to explode?
sorry guess I'm confusing flash point with auto ignition point
guess it's the same with push and pull with you.

10-07-2008, 11:02 AM   #24
RapidSnail
Diamond Member

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,258
flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Quote:
Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Quote:
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
Quote:
 Originally posted by: Eli The boiling point of ethanol, as someone mentioned, is 173.1ºF. The flash point of 40% ethanol/60% water is 78.8ºF. That's probably close enough for your rum.
so buy your calculation if I'm drinking rum on a hot summer day its going to explode?
No. The liquid must be 78.8ºF for it to be ignitable. How many people drink bear at ~80 degrees on a hot summer day?
I want to know how many people drink bear
Oops. I should have said "bare." Which might make sense! :laugh:

10-07-2008, 01:39 PM   #25
Paperdoc
Golden Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,433
flash point vs. boiling point

Quote:
Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Quote:
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
Quote:
 Originally posted by: Eli The boiling point of ethanol, as someone mentioned, is 173.1ºF. The flash point of 40% ethanol/60% water is 78.8ºF. That's probably close enough for your rum.
so buy your calculation if I'm drinking rum on a hot summer day its going to explode?
No. The liquid must be 78.8ºF for it to be ignitable. How many people drink bear at ~80 degrees on a hot summer day?
Bear Beer, etc.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamm's_Beer_bear
http://beerblog.genx40.com/arc.../january/stoutsbigbear

I am having difficulty in accepting the idea that at 80F a glass of plain 80-proof rum (or other liquor) will spontaneously flash into flame, even if it quickly stops burning without a nearby ignition source. I expect the temperature to be much higher than that.