Tom Brady is the "greatest" quarterback since the merger.

[Capt Caveman]

Originally Posted by SP33Demon

And BB and Brady didn't deny it and paid the fine without a peep. Guilty as charged. Those petty little details...

Take all 3 SB rings from BB and Brady and give them to players like McNabb, Delhomme, and Warner who actually earned it.

BB and Brady haven't won any titles in my book, just as Bonds and Lance should have asterisks.

Keep on crying. You'll do more of that after the SB.

[Capt Caveman]

Originally Posted by Phokus

Why don't you explain to us the advantage of taping signals gave BB. I know exactly why they did it but it wasn't for the reason you think. You don't know football sorry.

Jimmy Johnson said he taped with the cowboys and dolphins and it didn't really do much.

He can't. He's just a bad troll.

[SP33Demon]

Originally Posted by Phokus

And Sp33dDemon, just to show how wrong you are, look at the advanced stats for the Patriot's offense, you don't know what you're talking about, the Patriot's offense has been WAYYYYYYYYY better post-spygate.

Superbowl Winning Years:

4.7 2001
6.3 2003
21.8 2004

Post Spygate Years:

40.1 2007
23.3 2009 (2008 brady was out for the year)
45.3 2010
31.1 2011
28.3 2012

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff2012

I'm not saying the Pats system is bad. It's bad that they cheated during the games to win rings against evenly matched opponents and then admitted to it and lost $$+ draft picks as a result.

[techs]

Originally Posted by Phokus

And Sp33dDemon, just to show how wrong you are, look at the advanced stats for the Patriot's offense, you don't know what you're talking about, the Patriot's offense has been WAYYYYYYYYY better post-spygate.

Superbowl Winning Years:

4.7 2001
6.3 2003
21.8 2004

Post Spygate Years:

40.1 2007
23.3 2009 (2008 brady was out for the year)
45.3 2010
31.1 2011
28.3 2012

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff2012

Yes. Clearly it was the decline of the defense that hurt the Pats. In todays NFL you only have enough money to build and maintain either offense or defense. When you have the greatest qb ever in Brady the decision to go for offense is easy.

[Phokus]

Originally Posted by SP33Demon

I'm not saying the Pats system is bad. It's bad that they cheated during the games to win rings against evenly matched opponents and then admitted to it and lost $$+ draft picks as a result.

You still haven't explained the advantage taping signals gives a team. Given that all teams change their defensive signals week to week, please, tell me, what advantage did the Pats have over the Eagles in their superbowl when they didn't even play the Eagles that year.

[Childs]

Originally Posted by Phokus

You still haven't explained the advantage taping signals gives a team. Given that all teams change their defensive signals week to week, please, tell me, what advantage did the Pats have over the Eagles in their superbowl when they didn't even play the Eagles that year.

Better question to ask is if it didnt give any advantage, why did they do it for so long?

[Phokus]

Originally Posted by techs

Yes. Clearly it was the decline of the defense that hurt the Pats. In todays NFL you only have enough money to build and maintain either offense or defense. When you have the greatest qb ever in Brady the decision to go for offense is easy.

I would disagree that you can't have both: see the 49ers.

They have an offensive DVOA ranked 5th and a defensive DVOA ranked 2nd (their offiensive rank is actually understated because Kaep took over later in the year for Smith)

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff

The niners drafted well, the patriots haven't drafted as strongly. If you hit it in drafts consistently you can have both.

[SP33Demon]

Originally Posted by Phokus

You still haven't explained the advantage taping signals gives a team. Given that all teams change their defensive signals week to week, please, tell me, what advantage did the Pats have over the Eagles in their superbowl when they didn't even play the Eagles that year.

The common logic is the Pats were taping DURING the SB. No way they could have guessed right on that many blitzes in a row in XXXIX.

Asterisk X3.

[Phokus]

Originally Posted by Childs

Better question to ask is if it didnt give any advantage, why did they do it for so long?

From what i've read, they did it to keep a record of how quickly defensive coaches got their signals in. That's why in that tape that was leaked of the video of them taping, they tape the jets coaches giving the signal, then look at the playclock to see how much time is left. So if a team gets in their signals slowly, they're more suseptible to the hurryup offense.

They could have done the same thing with pen and paper.

But to say they had signals for future use is hilariously stupid. If you can steel signals with video, you can do it with your own eyes. That is why teams change their signals week to week.

[Phokus]

Originally Posted by SP33Demon

The common logic is the Pats were taping DURING the SB. No way they could have guessed right on that many blitzes in a row in XXXIX.

Asterisk X3.

Now you're just making things up.

You don't have enough time to rewind the tape, play the tape and decode the plays.

[SP33Demon]

Originally Posted by Phokus

Now you're just making things up.

You don't have enough time to rewind the tape, play the tape and decode the plays.

BS you can't.

[techs]

Originally Posted by Phokus

I would disagree that you can't have both: see the 49ers.

They have an offensive DVOA ranked 5th and a defensive DVOA ranked 2nd (their offiensive rank is actually understated because Kaep took over later in the year for Smith)

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff

The niners drafted well, the patriots haven't drafted as strongly. If you hit it in drafts consistently you can have both.

While you can put together both for a season or two or at most three you can't keep it together. Or rather it is extremely difficult and rare to.

[Capt Caveman]

Originally Posted by SP33Demon

The common logic is the Pats were taping DURING the SB. No way they could have guessed right on that many blitzes in a row in XXXIX.

Asterisk X3.

Yes, Brady doesn''t do that every game nowadays. I suggest you watch some football games with Peyton Manning or Brady playing. It wouldn't have nothing to do with the team not hiding their blitzes very well.

[Phokus]

Originally Posted by SP33Demon

BS you can't.

Lol, you're so stupid. You don't have enough time to go into halftime to rewind tape and go through an entire half to get their signals.

It's so much faster to do it in real time. Even Mike Shanahan agrees:

"It's no rumor, pal. "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter.""

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ins...ife_of_reilly/

And this is why most teams also change their signals by halftime as well.

[Childs]

Originally Posted by Phokus

From what i've read, they did it to keep a record of how quickly defensive coaches got their signals in. That's why in that tape that was leaked of the video of them taping, they tape the jets coaches giving the signal, then look at the playclock to see how much time is left. So if a team gets in their signals slowly, they're more suseptible to the hurryup offense.

They could have done the same thing with pen and paper.

But to say they had signals for future use is hilariously stupid. If you can steel signals with video, you can do it with your own eyes. That is why teams change their signals week to week.

They filmed offensive signals as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Na...pes_in_advance

Hines Ward says the Pats D would change because on offensive audible signals...

"Oh, they knew," the Steelers' Hines Ward said, referring to the New England defense in the two AFC title games it won in Pittsburgh. "They were calling our stuff out. They knew, especially that first championship game here at Heinz Field. They knew a lot of our calls. There's no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sport...40137200_x.htm

Hines might have somewhat of an axe to grind, but if there was no advantage they wouldnt do it. And knowing the signals is a definite advantage. Especially situationally, when one or two plays can determine the game.

[Phokus]

Originally Posted by Childs

They filmed offensive signals as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Na...pes_in_advance

Hines Ward says the Pats D would change because on offensive audible signals...



http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sport...40137200_x.htm

Hines might have somewhat of an axe to grind, but if there was no advantage they wouldnt do it. And knowing the signals is a definite advantage. Especially situationally, when one or two plays can determine the game.

You can't 'tape' offensive signals because offensive signals are verbally communicated into the QB's headset. Defensive signals are hand signals by assistant coaches (defensive players don't have headsets, at least not back then; they might changed it like they were rumored to have considered it recently).

Your wiki link doesn't mention anything about stealing offensive signals.

Again, nobody is stupid enough to keep the same signals week to week.

Edit: Hines wards saying they 'stole' offensive signals without any evidence is not 'evidence'.

[Zargon]

Originally Posted by Phokus

Lol, you're so stupid. You don't have enough time to go into halftime to rewind tape and go through an entire half to get their signals.

yeah......you probably do

beyond that its an NFL team. they probably have staff sitting in a room breaking it down from play 1.

It's so much faster to do it in real time. Even Mike Shanahan agrees:

"It's no rumor, pal. "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter.""

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ins...ife_of_reilly/

And this is why most teams also change their signals by halftime as well.

dont doubt any of that

but I'd have to agree, that if they were getting no benefits on doing that, compared to what they can do inside the rules, why were they doing it? and surely you dont think that BB would ever EVER tell anyone the truth about it outside his deathbed do you?

Originally Posted by Phokus

You can't 'tape' offensive signals because offensive signals are verbally communicated into the QB's headset. Defensive signals are hand signals by assistant coaches (defensive players don't have headsets, at least not back then; they might changed it like they were rumored to have considered it recently).

Your wiki link doesn't mention anything about stealing offensive signals.

.

actually it specifically mentions a tape of offensive playcalls


the D gets one green helmet too now, in chicago it was Urlacher

[Phokus]

Originally Posted by Zargon

yeah......you probably do

beyond that its an NFL team. they probably have staff sitting in a room breaking it down from play 1.

Uh, no you probably dont'

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/timing

"Each period is 15 minutes. The intermission between the periods is two minutes. Halftime is 12 minutes, unless otherwise specified."

You're saying you can run back to the locker room, rewind the tape, and figure out the signals in that amount of time? And remember, there are usually multiple defensive coaches giving signals, several giving false signals, to make it harder to decode.

dont doubt any of that

but I'd have to agree, that if they were getting no benefits on doing that, compared to what they can do inside the rules, why were they doing it? and surely you dont think that BB would ever EVER tell anyone the truth about it outside his deathbed do you?

Whatever it is, it's not to steal signals. Having a record of how quickly defensive assistants get their playcall in is a much better explanation.

actually it specifically mentions a tape of offensive playcalls


the D gets one green helmet too now, in chicago it was Urlacher

Ever watch football? The offensive coordinator talks into his headset, and they all use their playsheet to cover their mouths.

[Childs]

Originally Posted by Phokus

You can't 'tape' offensive signals because offensive signals are verbally communicated into the QB's headset. Defensive signals are hand signals by assistant coaches (defensive players don't have headsets, at least not back then; they might changed it like they were rumored to have considered it recently).

Your wiki link doesn't mention anything about stealing offensive signals.

Two tapes, one offensive signals and one defensive signals, from the Dolphins game on October 7, 2001

Edit: Hines wards saying they 'stole' offensive signals without any evidence is not 'evidence'.

"They were calling our stuff out. They knew, especially that first championship game here at Heinz Field. They knew a lot of our calls. There's no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff." I would take his word over yours, as he played in the game. Not to mention that the Pats were breaking the rules, and they got busted for it. Documented cheaters. Cheaters dont get the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not saying other teams dont cheat, but the Pats are documented cheaters.

[techs]

Let's lay out the facts.

Taping the opposing team was perfectly legal as long as you did it from a location with two walls and roof (hey, thats the rules the NFL made).

The ONLY thing that was admitted to by the Pats and stated by the league was that indeed the Pats taped from field level.

Everything else, from bizarre claims they taped prior to the Super Bowl to the idea that they used the tapes they made at halftime have either been denied by Belichek or the league or Roger Goodell. There is no credible evidence at all.



Now the reality:

Teams can and did tape. In fact you were allowed to (see above). The practice of doing it at field level was so widespread that Goodell issued a memo reminding teams of the rules.

The Patriots could have fought the penalties by just exposing all the other teams who did it. They decided for the good of the league to just admit it and move on.

Whiny ass punk bitches like Hines Ward should just stfu about how they know they Patriots cheated. When you get outplayed and outsmarted just go back and work harder to outplay and outsmart the other team. "Deducing" they must have cheated because they played so well just makes you a punk ass bitch.

How much did taping help the Pats, or for that matter all the other teams who did it? Well, in the Pats case their offense didn't change one bit. And if anything was a lot better than the first 6 plus seasons they did it.

[Childs]

Originally Posted by techs

Everything else, from bizarre claims they taped prior to the Super Bowl to the idea that they used the tapes they made at halftime have either been denied by Belichek or the league or Roger Goodell. There is no credible evidence at all.

Convenient that the league destroyed the tapes. If they did tape the Rams before the Superbowl, that would have been one hell of a mess.

[techs]

Originally Posted by Childs

Convenient that the league destroyed the tapes. If they did tape the Rams before the Superbowl, that would have been one hell of a mess.

Like I said taping was widespread. Which is why Goodell burned the tapes and the Pats just took the penalties.

A lot of people in this thread would be eating crow if every team that was taping from a position not enclosed was revealed.

If there was a "coverup" it was not covering up the Pats but the rest of the league.

[SP33Demon]

Originally Posted by Childs

Convenient that the league destroyed the tapes. If they did tape the Rams before the Superbowl, that would have been one hell of a mess.

And Eagles, and Panthers... which is why the Pats get an asterisk by their SB "wins".

[Zargon]

Originally Posted by Phokus

Uh, no you probably dont'

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/timing

"Each period is 15 minutes. The intermission between the periods is two minutes. Halftime is 12 minutes, unless otherwise specified."

You're saying you can run back to the locker room, rewind the tape, and figure out the signals in that amount of time? And remember, there are usually multiple defensive coaches giving signals, several giving false signals, to make it harder to decode.




Whatever it is, it's not to steal signals. Having a record of how quickly defensive assistants get their playcall in is a much better explanation.





Ever watch football? The offensive coordinator talks into his headset, and they all use their playsheet to cover their mouths.

LOL 15 minutes of play my ass. 6 miuntes of play, 6 minutes of playcalling and 3 minutes of doing absolutely nothing

I can watch a game on my dvr in between 40 and 50 minutes depending on use of hurry up. hurry up means my auto skip 30 seconds cant be used so I wont fast forward between plays

there is not that much playcalling going on during a quarter of football, and what makes you think it would be one guy doing it anyways

'ever watch football'? have you? probably not if you think a football game is actually as long as the timing periods

[techs]

One thing that is not in dispute is that Brady had the greatest home of any qb ever.

Its a 20 million dollar custom built mansion in Los Angeles that has a moat. Yes, a moat. Brady appreciates the protection of a good offensive line and a medieval defensive fortification.

Here's a video of Bradys new mansion:
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...4957--nfl.html