sosa and mcgwire both belong in hof

[actuarial]

Originally Posted by SP33Demon

Piazza and Bagwell, there's no evidence against them so they should be in.

What about Piazza's back acne that cleared up as soon as they started testing for steroids? There is at least one person who left them off their ballot due to that evidence.

And while the Clemens evidence is very (extremely) strong, he has never admitted to it, has never tested positive, and has never been convicted of a crime relating to it.

And finally, what about all the people who have admitted to using other non-steroid PEDs that are already in the hall?

[JEDIYoda]

Originally Posted by rasczak

Yea, no. Neither of them belong in the HOF. Cheats should never, ever be given the opportunity. They simply do not deserve it.

were they cheating if everybody was using roids??

[SphinxnihpS]

Who goes to prison, criminals or caught criminals?

The punishment should fit the crime? No. The punishment should be a deterrent to committing crime, and should justly be excessive.

To me, like many others, being an American Big League player is a historical honor, and those that dishonor the institution should be banned from participating in it in any fashion, for life and death.

If you want to be moral relativists, you could make a better case for unbanning the Black Sox than putting any of the roiders in the Hall. They were all motivated by greed, but at least the Black Sox and players of their era were getting fucked by the owners back then, so there is some room for sympathy.

[SP33Demon]

Originally Posted by actuarial

What about Piazza's back acne that cleared up as soon as they started testing for steroids? There is at least one person who left them off their ballot due to that evidence.

And while the Clemens evidence is very (extremely) strong, he has never admitted to it, has never tested positive, and has never been convicted of a crime relating to it.

And finally, what about all the people who have admitted to using other non-steroid PEDs that are already in the hall?

Noone's ever testified against Piazza nor brought formal allegations, it's most likely a dumb story from a hater. The evidence just isn't there against Piazza.

Clemens just has too much going against him including the Mitchell report.

Non-steroid PEDs? Like what, greenies/amphetamines? Stimulants have same effect as caffeine, they weren't making the guys stronger/heal faster.

[KlokWyze]

fact: baseball is really exciting and interesting

[actuarial]

Originally Posted by SP33Demon

Non-steroid PEDs? Like what, greenies/amphetamines? Stimulants have same effect as caffeine, they weren't making the guys stronger/heal faster.

So why were they taking them then instead of just drinking coffee? And no, they weren't making them stronger/heal faster, they were allowing them to concentrate harder at the plate.

I just wanted to see if you were consistent with your 'cheaters don't belong', which apparently you aren't.

[SphinxnihpS]

Originally Posted by actuarial

So why were they taking them then instead of just drinking coffee? And no, they weren't making them stronger/heal faster, they were allowing them to concentrate harder at the plate.

I just wanted to see if you were consistent with your 'cheaters don't belong', which apparently you aren't.

Obviously you have never taken amphetamines or you would know that concentration is the opposite to the effect they produce. In the long-term, and with them long-term is a pretty short period, the effects are nothing but negative.

[angminas]

The real problem is having a hall of fame to begin with. We deify these people because they can hit a piece of leather with a stick. As if the money they make isn't enough compensation.

[SP33Demon]

Originally Posted by actuarial

So why were they taking them then instead of just drinking coffee? And no, they weren't making them stronger/heal faster, they were allowing them to concentrate harder at the plate.

I just wanted to see if you were consistent with your 'cheaters don't belong', which apparently you aren't.

They have slightly more of an amplified effect than Red Bull. Who gives a fuck? Steroids actually increase decision time on a pitch due to strength and bat speed increases. You're comparing apples to unicorns.

Also, nobody admitted to greenies before they were inducted unlike some of the new crop like McGwire.

[actuarial]

Originally Posted by SP33Demon

They have slightly more of an amplified effect than Red Bull. Who gives a fuck? Steroids actually increase decision time on a pitch due to strength and bat speed increases. You're comparing apples to unicorns.

Also, nobody admitted to greenies before they were inducted unlike some of the new crop like McGwire.

Yes, I am comparing apples to unicorns, but that's what happens when you make issues black and white like 'cheaters shouldn't get in'.

Technically, steroids were against the rules, but they neither tested players for their use nor had any penalties in place for players who took them. You would get a bigger penalty for charging the mound than taking steroids, so I know how MLB felt about them at the time.

At least Pete Rose was omitted from the hall for doing something that got him a lifetime ban from baseball. These guys are going to be omitted (actually I don't think they will, but for now) for doing something that baseball didn't even bother to penalize.

My opinion of this is coloured by the fact that I don't even think PED's should be against the rules in the first place.

[TallBill]

Fuck Sosa. Let everyone else in.

[SP33Demon]

Originally Posted by actuarial

Yes, I am comparing apples to unicorns, but that's what happens when you make issues black and white like 'cheaters shouldn't get in'.

Technically, steroids were against the rules, but they neither tested players for their use nor had any penalties in place for players who took them. You would get a bigger penalty for charging the mound than taking steroids, so I know how MLB felt about them at the time.

At least Pete Rose was omitted from the hall for doing something that got him a lifetime ban from baseball. These guys are going to be omitted (actually I don't think they will, but for now) for doing something that baseball didn't even bother to penalize.

My opinion of this is coloured by the fact that I don't even think PED's should be against the rules in the first place.

Steroids are illegal substances. While not all HOF players were angels (notice how their admissions to cheating came AFTER they got in such as Gaylord Perry and his infamous spitballs), we can still send a message that taking illegal substances is not ok and that we don't want our kids doing it - and set that example.It's pretty cut and dried, if you took something illegal and there's evidence, then you don't get in. Whether there's an admission after getting into the HOF, that matters not. Writers can only vote on guys with the evidence they have at the time.

Rose admitted to betting on his own team (allegedly only "winning"), why should he be allowed in the Hall? What if every manager did this? If Rose kept his mouth shut, maybe he would have been voted in. Hell, he may still get in after he dies just because he's the hit king. But you certainly cannot say the writers don't have a good reason to keep that sad-excuse for-a-human-being out of the HOF. Their reasoning is perfectly justified in my opinion.

[Vdubchaos]

When it comes to ANY sport, as long as there is ANY substance usage, I don't see an issue with players using ANY of them.

I don't care if some associations that makes some list of legal or illegal. Who the F are they to decide anyways.

Either no substance AT ALL (which will never happen) or let them do what they want (which is what's happening anyways).

It's just like Bicycling. These athletes take ALL kinds of substances, there isn't ONE that doesn't. But they have an agency telling them what they can/can't take.

BS if you ask me.

[actuarial]

Originally Posted by SP33Demon

Steroids are illegal substances. While not all HOF players were angels (notice how their admissions to cheating came AFTER they got in such as Gaylord Perry and his infamous spitballs), we can still send a message that taking illegal substances is not ok and that we don't want our kids doing it - and set that example.It's pretty cut and dried, if you took something illegal and there's evidence, then you don't get in. Whether there's an admission after getting into the HOF, that matters not. Writers can only vote on guys with the evidence they have at the time.

So is it because they did something illegal, or are we doing it for the children? I'm not saying the writers can do anything about those already in, but why aren't those so against cheating lobbying for the hall to kick out cheaters?

Originally Posted by SP33Demon

Rose admitted to betting on his own team (allegedly only "winning"), why should he be allowed in the Hall? What if every manager did this? If Rose kept his mouth shut, maybe he would have been voted in. Hell, he may still get in after he dies just because he's the hit king. But you certainly cannot say the writers don't have a good reason to keep that sad-excuse for-a-human-being out of the HOF. Their reasoning is perfectly justified in my opinion.

He should be allowed in the hall because he's one of the greatest baseball players to ever live, the whole reason for the hall, and he was gambling on games as a manager, not as a player (correct me if I'm wrong there though).

[lupi]

Big mac, yes.

"Sammy Susser", much more doubtful.

[SP33Demon]

Originally Posted by Vdubchaos

When it comes to ANY sport, as long as there is ANY substance usage, I don't see an issue with players using ANY of them.

I don't care if some associations that makes some list of legal or illegal. Who the F are they to decide anyways.

Either no substance AT ALL (which will never happen) or let them do what they want (which is what's happening anyways).

It's just like Bicycling. These athletes take ALL kinds of substances, there isn't ONE that doesn't. But they have an agency telling them what they can/can't take.

BS if you ask me.

If it's an illegal narcotic/steroid/hormone/whatever, they should not be in the HOF if there is ample evidence. We have a responsibility to set an example for our kids, unless you're perfectly ok with your kids taking illegal substances to try and make it.

This doesn't even bring into question the issue of kids cheating, whether it be on their tests, resume when applying for a job, writing a paper, switching pricetags at a store to pay less, i.e. any type of dishonesty to get something out of life.

[zinfamous]

Originally Posted by rasczak

Yea, no. Neither of them belong in the HOF. Cheats should never, ever be given the opportunity. They simply do not deserve it.

plenty of blatant cheaters hanging out in the HoF right now.

should they now be extracted?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...ll-of-cheaters

How about this gem?

But for all of those “baseball purists” I’ll remind you that the legendary Mickey Mantle missed the end of the 1961 season because of an infection from an injection site of, you guessed it, steroids. But I guess it is different, he was a Yankee.

damn. take Mantle out of the HoF. banned for life, right?

[SP33Demon]

Originally Posted by zinfamous

plenty of blatant cheaters hanging out in the HoF right now.

should they now be extracted?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...ll-of-cheaters

How about this gem?



damn. take Mantle out of the HoF. banned for life, right?

Bleacherreport is a reputable source (/sarcasm) perpetrating an urban myth. Keep in mind that NFL players weren't even using roids til the 70's, so you can decide for yourself by using common sense.

Mantle using roids is on the same stupidity as Babe Ruth using them (seriously some people believe this).

There is also the fact that these urban myths were not present when Mick got in the HOF, so who cares? Someone wrote a book about it last year off hearsay trying to make some cash. There is no evidence of this happening other than Mick being in the hospital for having severe flu while watching Maris belt his 61st.

Seriously, this is what people really believe and post (similar to you):
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...8135531AAt3spb

[Conscript]

Afree with OP, but at the end of the day, not going to get too worked up over a couple. Guys not getting little busts of themselves. Made, when they made millions playing a kids game very well.