Ouch!!! The tax increase sucks

[episodic]

I always get pissed when they say we have lower taxes than other countries - what they don't figure is most of those other countries have healthcare for 'free' with their taxes. We have to pay taxes plus healthcare and we get doubly screwed.

[Imported]

Oddly enough, my medicare tax went down.. everything else went up though.

[Jeff7]

Originally Posted by Balt

I'm not unaware that children are very expensive, but having them is also a voluntary choice that a person makes. Not sure why they should get a tax deduction for it.

Ah, right.

I guess it's just an incentive to grow the tax base, as if people don't reproduce sufficiently on their own already.

I'd also say that it's a bit short-sighted, as there is indeed a finite limit to the surface area of this planet. I guess once it's standing-room-only, the next generation will just have to start a second layer. Heck, most life on this planet already just builds right on the (remains of) a previous generation. (Soil everywhere. Hell yeah.)

I've got no kids, but I can also stimulate the economy, dammit!

[cKGunslinger]

Originally Posted by episodic

I always get pissed when they say we have lower taxes than other countries - what they don't figure is most of those other countries have healthcare for 'free' with their taxes. We have to pay taxes plus healthcare and we get doubly screwed.

True, but I also like to think that we don't have to shit out on the train tracks, bathe in a river floating with dead bodies, worry about mortars hitting the house in the night, neighboring countries invading us, etc..

(Obviously, you are talking about 1st word countries, but I still think we have relatively reasonable taxes..)

[episodic]

Originally Posted by cKGunslinger

True, but I also like to think that we don't have to shit out on the train tracks, bathe in a river floating with dead bodies, worry about mortars hitting the house in the night, neighboring countries invading us, etc..

(Obviously, you are talking about 1st word countries, but I still think we have relatively reasonable taxes..)

Yea, because that happens in most of Europe. Yes, I read your parentheticals - but still. Sheesh. Don't know about you - but insurance is insane. I've been forced into high deductable which might as well be no coverage unless I pass out and am transported against my will insurance. Basically any little thing will cost my family 8 grand now (out of pocket max). Meanwhile, people on assistance can go get any thing done when they want. I'm wondering when it will profit me more to not work - at least I could finally get my knee and foot fixed.

[cKGunslinger]

Originally Posted by episodic

Yea, because that happens in most of Europe. Yes, I read your parentheticals - but still. Sheesh. Don't know about you - but insurance is insane. I've been forced into high deductable which might as well be no coverage unless I pass out and am transported against my will insurance. Basically any little thing will cost my family 8 grand now (out of pocket max). Meanwhile, people on assistance can go get any thing done when they want. I'm wondering when it will profit me more to not work - at least I could finally get my knee and foot fixed.

Wow - I don't follow insurance much. I have a family plan through work that costs me $5700k year. Then my co-pays are $20 for most everything and prescriptions (generics) are $7. I think our deductible on anything major is $400/year for the family ($200 per individual,) after which things are covered at 90-100%. That's all in-Network. Out-of-network is like $600/$1200 and 70%.

Now, I have friends who have adopted children from foster care, and as such, the kids are covered by Medicaid. While Medicaid does seem to cover many things, the system appears to be a complete and utter nightmare to use. Even finding doctors/dentists/therapists who accept Medicaid is a huge issue, and we live in a major metro area.

Now, for me, who has a dental cleaning twice a year, new glasses every other year and a check-up maybe every 3 years, that $6k is a waste, but since it covers my soon-to-be-ex wife's many, many jacked-up issues and medications, and all my kids' surgeries/shots, I guess that's a pretty good deal.

So, I've gotten off-topic - but I stick to the idea that taxes seem reasonable, from my perspective.


edit: I just checked, and my employer contributes $19k/year to our medical benefits on top of my $5700. So yeah, that shit is expensive!

[Red Squirrel]

Originally Posted by episodic

I always get pissed when they say we have lower taxes than other countries - what they don't figure is most of those other countries have healthcare for 'free' with their taxes. We have to pay taxes plus healthcare and we get doubly screwed.

Yeah and you guys pay tax on lot of stuff other countries don't. For example, any kind of winnings. Win The Price Is Right and get that brand new 70k sports car? Guess what, you have to pay 35,000 in taxes! (or whatever the percentage is) Don't have the money? Tough luck, the IRS is coming for you! Same with the lotto etc... I would hate if it was like that here. Not that I win stuff very often, but if I do, I don't want to be penalized for it.

[episodic]

Originally Posted by cKGunslinger

Wow - I don't follow insurance much. I have a family plan through work that costs me $5700k year. Then my co-pays are $20 for most everything and prescriptions (generics) are $7. I think our deductible on anything major is $400/year for the family ($200 per individual,) after which things are covered at 90-100%. That's all in-Network. Out-of-network is like $600/$1200 and 70%.

Now, I have friends who have adopted children from foster care, and as such, the kids are covered by Medicaid. While Medicaid does seem to cover many things, the system appears to be a complete and utter nightmare to use. Even finding doctors/dentists/therapists who accept Medicaid is a huge issue, and we live in a major metro area.

Now, for me, who has a dental cleaning twice a year, new glasses every other year and a check-up maybe every 3 years, that $6k is a waste, but since it covers my soon-to-be-ex wife's many, many jacked-up issues and medications, and all my kids' surgeries/shots, I guess that's a pretty good deal.

So, I've gotten off-topic - but I stick to the idea that taxes seem reasonable, from my perspective.


edit: I just checked, and my employer contributes $19k/year to our medical benefits on top of my $5700. So yeah, that shit is expensive!

Wait till your employer follows the trend other companies are taking and shifts that 19k burden to you - then offers you magical high deductable plans that don't cover anything till you exceed thousands of dollars in out of pocket expenses - while emphasizing how awesome it is you get to put money in an HSA account that you get to spend. See that money your employeer spends on healthcare (if we were in a 'civilized country' with health care for all) - could have been used to hire more employees or to compensate you more. Part of what is wrong with the economy.

[DrPizza]

Originally Posted by cKGunslinger

edit: I just checked, and my employer contributes $19k/year to our medical benefits on top of my $5700. So yeah, that shit is expensive!

Now, back to episodic's point that sure, in other first world countries, they pay more in taxes, but that also covers their health care: Take your annual salary, add that $24,700 to it. Then, adding together the taxes you pay along with that $24,700, figure out what percentage that works out to. Now compare it to what people pay in Europe.

Also, $24,700 seems kinda high. Unless I'm mistaken, $10 copays for doctor or specialist, $10 prescription, no referrals needed, $50 ER copay - unless I'm admitted. That's it. And, for less than $24,700.

[SSSnail]

If I have the time, or care enough, to list all the taxes and fees we have to pay as San Franciscans, it will make your heads spin.

[SSSnail]

Originally Posted by episodic

Wait till your employer follows the trend other companies are taking and shifts that 19k burden to you - then offers you magical high deductable plans that don't cover anything till you exceed thousands of dollars in out of pocket expenses - while emphasizing how awesome it is you get to put money in an HSA account that you get to spend. See that money your employeer spends on healthcare (if we were in a 'civilized country' with health care for all) - could have been used to hire more employees or to compensate you more. Part of what is wrong with tree economy.

I don't know of your specific plans, but I worked out some numbers and opening an HSA account was better for us. If you're young, and don't get sick often, it's the best plan out there. All my preventative visits are free, no co-pay; I also pay less in premiums per month, which are also subsidized by my employer. I also switched from HMO to PPO and the max out of pocket aren't much different.

My employer deposits money into the HSA account annually, I contribute, and I get to take that balance with me wherever I go, regardless of whether I remain employed at the current place.

[episodic]

Originally Posted by SSSnail

I don't know of your specific plans, but I worked out some numbers and opening an HSA account was better for us. If you're young, and don't get sick often, it's the best plan out there. All my preventative visits are free, no co-pay; I also pay less in premiums per month, which are also subsidized by my employer. I also switched from HMO to PPO and the max out of pocket aren't much different.

My employer deposits money into the HSA account annually, I contribute, and I get to take that balance with me wherever I go, regardless of whether I remain employed at the current place.

You'll get older someday, I did. Run the numbers then.

[sze5003]

My employer also puts fun into a health account. I think one time I went to the doc for a weird skin allergy. First time under the new insurance I paid 20 bucks. I'm single so I have a 950/1250 deductible plan, but all the preventative care is covered. For my skin allergy that later went away I think I got a bill for 30-40 bucks but my plan payed for it out of that health account.

It is quite expensive over the year but I don't particularly go to the docs often. Each year the company puts in I think 2-600 in that health account and it racks up for me since I rarely use it. But I think for non preventative visits I always pay a deductible.

Sucks the SSI went up, more taxes came out because of my raise and basically put me a little under but still bringing home almost the same amount. To say the least thinking of the word "raise" had me unmotivated when I saw the end result.

Lucky for us the company just hit 2 trillion in cash assets so every employee is getting $250 bucks as a gift...yay or basically 100 or whatever once they tax that too :/

[SSSnail]

Originally Posted by episodic

You'll get older someday, I did. Run the numbers then.

Well yeah, but here's how I see it. Your max out of pocket is your max out of pocket, there's nothing you can do to change that, whether you're on HMO, PPO or HSA. With the HSA, my max out of pocket is slightly higher than my max out of pocket with the HMO, or PPO. I can offset that with the lower monthly premiums, and extra annual contribution by my employer (on top of the 75% they're paying).

I'll get older, by then my HSA account will have a sizable amount in it, and I'd still have the PPO HSA for the rest, assuming everything continues on its current course. I'd just have to pay the max out of pocket annually using the HSA account. Contributions are pretax. Did I mention the money in the HSA account is there forever? For as long as I'm using it for healthcare purposes. Oh, I can actually buy ETFs with the money, too.

The alternative is that keep paying out of pockets, out of my own pockets, forever, and paying higher premiums until I get old, and pay some more out of pockets. Besides, starting next year, there won't be anything else, but HSA. Figures I start early.

[xeemzor]

Originally Posted by SSSnail

Well yeah, but here's how I see it. Your max out of pocket is your max out of pocket, there's nothing you can do to change that, whether you're on HMO, PPO or HSA. With the HSA, my max out of pocket is slightly higher than my max out of pocket with the HMO, or PPO. I can offset that with the lower monthly premiums, and extra annual contribution by my employer (on top of the 75% they're paying).

I'll get older, by then my HSA account will have a sizable amount in it, and I'd still have the PPO HSA for the rest, assuming everything continues on its current course. I'd just have to pay the max out of pocket annually using the HSA account. Contributions are pretax. Did I mention the money in the HSA account is there forever? For as long as I'm using it for healthcare purposes. Oh, I can actually buy ETFs with the money, too.

The alternative is that keep paying out of pockets, out of my own pockets, forever, and paying higher premiums until I get old, and pay some more out of pockets. Besides, starting next year, there won't be anything else, but HSA. Figures I start early.

HSAs are the best way to avoid paying taxes legally. Let it grow tax free in an investment account, pay medical expenses out of pocket, and keep records of all expenses. You can withdraw the amount of your expenses tax free when you turn 65. Between my 401K and HSA match I'm getting an extra $4k/year from my employer

[Jeff7]

Originally Posted by episodic

Wait till your employer follows the trend other companies are taking and shifts that 19k burden to you - then offers you magical high deductable plans that don't cover anything till you exceed thousands of dollars in out of pocket expenses - while emphasizing how awesome it is you get to put money in an HSA account that you get to spend. See that money your employeer spends on healthcare (if we were in a 'civilized country' with health care for all) - could have been used to hire more employees or to compensate you more. Part of what is wrong with the economy.

That probably spells bonuses or raises for someone at the top, for saving the company all that money.

Oh well....one way or another, health care needs to be paid for. Some countries do it by taxes, others itemize it, others try to tax and itemize it a little slice at a time, and others just can't seem to make up their damned minds about it.
The US is still in that great place of "I don't want to have to pay for someone else's care. That's socialism. But everyone else had damn well better pay for it when I need really expensive surgery that I can't afford on my own. That's freedomism."


I'm certainly wary of corruption there though. How much is your pharmacy billing against your insurance for a medication? Why not bill a little somethin' somethin' extra? Sure it's probably illegal, but we can't let that stand in the way of significant revenue streams. I'm sure they would never dream of doing anything like that.....
It's ok. Insurance will cover it!

[SSSnail]

Originally Posted by Jeff7

I'm certainly wary of corruption there though. How much is your pharmacy billing against your insurance for a medication? Why not bill a little somethin' somethin' extra? Sure it's probably illegal, but we can't let that stand in the way of significant revenue streams. I'm sure they would never dream of doing anything like that.....
It's ok. Insurance will cover it!

I'm sure one of the many reasons why they moved to HSA is precisely the reason you stated, which is to make the users more conscientious when choosing their healthcare provider. To shop around for the best services for the best prices. After all, if you don't shop, you'd be paying more.

[episodic]

Originally Posted by SSSnail

Well yeah, but here's how I see it. Your max out of pocket is your max out of pocket, there's nothing you can do to change that, whether you're on HMO, PPO or HSA. With the HSA, my max out of pocket is slightly higher than my max out of pocket with the HMO, or PPO. I can offset that with the lower monthly premiums, and extra annual contribution by my employer (on top of the 75% they're paying).

I'll get older, by then my HSA account will have a sizable amount in it, and I'd still have the PPO HSA for the rest, assuming everything continues on its current course. I'd just have to pay the max out of pocket annually using the HSA account. Contributions are pretax. Did I mention the money in the HSA account is there forever? For as long as I'm using it for healthcare purposes. Oh, I can actually buy ETFs with the money, too.

The alternative is that keep paying out of pockets, out of my own pockets, forever, and paying higher premiums until I get old, and pay some more out of pockets. Besides, starting next year, there won't be anything else, but HSA. Figures I start early.

They've rasied EVERY price related to health care. You don't think as the years fly by they are going to continue to raise the out pocket maxes until you are forced by your years and declining health to spend what is in your HSA pretty much every year and in effect you are in the exact same place? I hope you are not thinking warm fuzzy thoughts when it comes to this. Just to give you a price check - my son had a deviated septum that had to be fixed. He spent 'an afternoon' - in out patient care. The total 'adjusted' bill was over 15,000. 1 event - 1 need = your out of pocket max.

[SSSnail]

Originally Posted by episodic

They've rasied EVERY price related to health care. You don't think as the years fly by they are going to continue to raise the out pocket maxes until you are forced by your years and declining health to spend what is in your HSA pretty much every year and in effect you are in the exact same place? I hope you are not thinking warm fuzzy thoughts when it comes to this. Just to give you a price check - my son had a deviated septum that had to be fixed. He spent 'an afternoon' - in out patient care. The total 'adjusted' bill was over 15,000. 1 event - 1 need = your out of pocket max.

It's better than the alternative, which is having nothing. So in your scenario with your son, what is your portion of that 15k?