Why not call gay marriage "garriage" and be done with it?

[Rob M.]

Originally Posted by zinfamous

Honestly, the only problem I have with the Church in this regard is when they insinuate themselves on public schoolboards and vote in creationist mumbo-jumbo spiritual malarky into the science classroom--that is them directly forcing themselves into the public good, and consequently dooming our children to a life of irrelevance from an employment standpoint.

Lol, there are people with college educations that are irrelevant that have no religious background.

What you say is completely false. I would argue that the stability and moral honestly that they bring to the workplace makes hiring them much more valuable.

So, if people believe in God, they have no place in society, is what you're saying?

[sandorski]

Originally Posted by Rob M.

So, if people believe in God, they have no place in society, is what you're saying?

No. Their Beliefs have no place within Society.

[zinfamous]

Originally Posted by Rob M.

Im simply sick to the backteeth of hearing time and again people like you saying religion is being forced and children are being indoctrinated through the same means of media that homosexuals/lesbians etc use to put their crap into people's homes...

well, if you read my previous post, I mentioned the only time I see Christians doing this is through politics. Through local school boards and public elections. Of course, this is far, far more insidious and directly damaging to people than are a handful of entertainment choices on the television. (seriously, you can just turn that off and gather the spuds around and read The Watchtower. No one is stopping anyone from that).

There is nothing about television entertainment that affects your life, or how you live. Nothing. You understand this--I hope-just as you understand that people have a choice not to go to church if they don't like it. We agree with that.

But to equate entertainment choices with the type of dedicated infiltration of public policy (trying to force our children to learn that mythology is equitable to science--an insidious form of social terrorism), is laughable.

And again--you aren't going to believe this because you have clearly painted me in to some invented stereotype as I have apparently painted you--I don't have a problem with the average religious person. I grew up Christian, I was baptized and confirmed, I come from a very religious half of a family (my mother is ordained methodist for fuck's sake), I spent many formative years in and around the church, doing good church things.

Do I hate Christians or the religious? No, not really. Do I hate the type that try to vocally force their mythology into my life, into the public education services that I pay for? Yes, I do. Do I recognize the good they do through charity and applaud them for it, yeah, I do. I participate.

I do this because in life, I have met very, very few religious people that are downright proselytizing assholes. Most are good folks that just want to live their lives, as do I, and aren't generally offended by things in life simply because, it really doesn't matter to them.

It's the blatant hypocrites that annoy me--those that demand the attention given to minorities somehow offends them and infringes on their rights--that they, as Christians, are now being attacked....are you FUCKING KIDDING ME? Christians own this fucking country. No one is shitting down any Christian's throat when you have an entrenched and all-powerful lobbying group with its cock balls-deep in the highest branches of government.

Sorry, it is absolutely everyone's right, in this country, to be offended and to offend. In fact, the ability to offend you is squarely protected by the first amendment. If you don't like it, then I suggest you go after that little piece of the constitution. If you don't understand this, then I suggest you re-evaluate the things you believe about the USA.

But be happy in life, avoid the things that offend you and bring discomfort, be a good Christian soldier and do what that communist Jesus bade you to do: be more tolerant, avoid being a dick, and so forth and so on.

[zinfamous]

Originally Posted by Rob M.

Lol, there are people with college educations that are irrelevant that have no religious background.

What you say is completely false. I would argue that the stability and moral honestly that they bring to the workplace makes hiring them much more valuable.

So, if people believe in God, they have no place in society, is what you're saying?

No not in the slightest. reading comprehension...sigh.


This is about presenting people with the proper form of information. Creationism is not science--simply put. To teach the two together, as if they were somehow "competing theories" is absolute intellectual dishonesty.

This confuses people/children, that are learnign these things for the first time. You don't go out and teach them simple arithmetic thusly:

2 + 2 =4

but also, there is a competing theory, that says:

2 + 1 = 4. You must choose which one you believe to be correct.

You see how that damages impressionable minds? It fosters an inability to discern logical factual information. To engage in knowledge, to engage in debate, to engage on an equal footing with a larger society of increasingly well-educated people.

Are there people with college degrees who are "irrelevant?" Sure, of course. But I don't know if you've been paying attention for the last decade, but this is now, and for the next many, many generations, be a workforce of college educated individuals. You see the effects right now. Why are so many laborers unemployed now? Easy--their jobs do not exist in this country. Right or wrong, the simple fact remains that you have to get that piece of paper to get in the door.

As an employer, would it make sense for me to put the person who knows and understands why 2 + 2 =4 on the same footing as the individual who believes, because they want to, that 2 + 1 = 4? No, that would be stupid.

What I am saying is not anti-Christian (I know this is hard for you to accept), as I know plenty of awesome Christians and people of faith that aren't stupid enough to believe that 2 +1 = 4 simply because someone told that that it could. These people did seek to be educated, and did seek to explore these issues logically.

[umbrella39]

Originally Posted by Pray To Jesus

I find it funny how in this thread all the insults and personal attacks are done by atheists, done while complaining how Christians are the bad ones.

I find it funny that modern day martyrs have the thinnest skin and the biggest mouths. Get down off the cross soldier... someone needs the wood.

[Rob M.]

Originally Posted by zinfamous

well, if you read my previous post, I mentioned the only time I see Christians doing this is through politics. Through local school boards and public elections. Of course, this is far, far more insidious and directly damaging to people than are a handful of entertainment choices on the television. (seriously, you can just turn that off and gather the spuds around and read The Watchtower. No one is stopping anyone from that)

Oh, I agree. They shouldn't have anything to do with Politics at all,... but they do.

There is nothing about television entertainment that affects your life, or how you live. Nothing. You understand this--I hope-just as you understand that people have a choice not to go to church if they don't like it. We agree with that.

Sure. We agree here. However, television can have an effect on your life and how you live. No, not me personally, becasue I don't watch certain programs because I know that I am only human, and can be affectefd by certain things that I know aren't good for me.

But to equate entertainment choices with the type of dedicated infiltration of public policy (trying to force our children to learn that mythology is equitable to science--an insidious form of social terrorism), is laughable.

You are under the assumption that teaching that God exists is damaging, which firstly isn't true, and secondly, your opinion.


I've personally always have believed that God exists, based on proof, and that we are created. Hasn't done a hint to damage to me... in fact, it gives me meaning to life. I am not burdened with the inconsistencies and ever-changing scientific opinion when it comes to the topic of creation v evolution.

And again--you aren't going to believe this because you have clearly painted me in to some invented stereotype as I have apparently painted you--I don't have a problem with the average religious person. I grew up Christian, I was baptized and confirmed, I come from a very religious half of a family (my mother is ordained methodist for fuck's sake), I spent many formative years in and around the church, doing good church things.

Hmmm.. what changed your mind?

Do I hate Christians or the religious? No, not really. Do I hate the type that try to vocally force their mythology into my life, into the public education services that I pay for? Yes, I do. Do I recognize the good they do through charity and applaud them for it, yeah, I do. I participate.

Personally, I think Churches are for religious education, not schools/colleges. However, kids are berated for having religious beliefs. Even on their personal lunchtime, reading a Bible... ON THEIR PERSONAL LUNCH TIME, is social suicide.

You have to realize (you prolly do) is that it doesn't have to be vocally conveyed for people to hate it. You can just say you have a religious affiliation and that's it for your social life in school.

That's the problem.

It's the blatant hypocrites that annoy me--those that demand the attention given to minorities somehow offends them and infringes on their rights--that they, as Christians, are now being attacked....are you FUCKING KIDDING ME? Christians own this fucking country. No one is shitting down any Christian's throat when you have an entrenched and all-powerful lobbying group with its cock balls-deep in the highest branches of government.

No, that stupid to me as well. They are NOT being attacked, they just want to control and force their stuff on people.

There really aint much else I can say. I tend to agree with you.

Sorry, it is absolutely everyone's right, in this country, to be offended and to offend. In fact, the ability to offend you is squarely protected by the first amendment. If you don't like it, then I suggest you go after that little piece of the constitution. If you don't understand this, then I suggest you re-evaluate the things you believe about the USA.

But be happy in life, avoid the things that offend you and bring discomfort, be a good Christian soldier and do what that communist Jesus bade you to do: be more tolerant, avoid being a dick, and so forth and so on.

What's your right aint always right though.

Maybe if people realized that, we would be better off. It's my right to be a jerk too, but how is that going to improve us socially?

I just don't get that line of reasoning sometimes....

[Rob M.]

Originally Posted by zinfamous

.

What I am saying is not anti-Christian (I know this is hard for you to accept), as I know plenty of awesome Christians and people of faith that aren't stupid enough to believe that 2 +1 = 4 simply because someone told that that it could. These people did seek to be educated, and did seek to explore these issues logically.

Again, your assuming that religious people in general can't/won't think for themselves and use God as some sort of crutch. Some, do and have. You also seem to be assuming that all "well-educated" people, do and alway have thought for themselves.

You need to stop painting that broad brush because you simply don't know what you're talking about...

[alzan]

Originally Posted by Rob M.

Oh... ok. So if it's a Church, it's forcing, but LBGT stuff, I can change it.

Gotcha....

You may choose to watch/not watch whatever television content you want, that was my point.

And no, I've never been told by the LGBT community that I'm going to a really horrible place when I die, unless I join their club; yet I've been told exactly that by strangers & relatives.

[Rob M.]

Originally Posted by sandorski

No. Their Beliefs have no place within Society.

Your bigotry has no place in society....

[zinfamous]

Originally Posted by Rob M.

You are under the assumption that teaching that God exists is damaging, which firstly isn't true, and secondly, your opinion.

that's not the criticism. The problem is teaching, specifically, Creationism (also known as "ID") as an equal, competing theory to Evolution. It is patently absurd. One is observable, testable, and disprovable. The other rejects the scientific method at all levels. This is the problem. I honestly don't give a shit if people want to teach creationism in schools--but it belongs in the Philosophy curriculum, or some religious studies elective

Concepts that reject Science do not belong in the Science classroom, as equal partners. Period.

I've personally always have believed that God exists, based on proof, and that we are created. Hasn't done a hint to damage to me... in fact, it gives me meaning to life. I am not burdened with the inconsistencies and ever-changing scientific opinion when it comes to the topic of creation v evolution.

We obviously have different standards of "proof." For me, my life is determined by evidence, proof doesn't really exist, to be honest. And more than anything else, there simply can be no proof, whatsoever, of God. Otherwise, you reject the concept of faith.

There are n inconsistencies in scientific opinion. That is simply how science works. We poke around and strive endlessly to find problems with the solutions that we have raised. When we find these problems, we raise new questions. The outsider thinks that science is the quest for answers. The scientist sees science as the quest for more questions. When we stop asking questions, we no longer accept science. This is why religion fails for so many people.

Hmmm.. what changed your mind?

Oh, nothing changed my mind. The ghost stories and false morality were always horseshit in my mind, but it was a good community of good people, and those in church that I grew up with remain my core group of best friends to this day. You would consider none of us religious, but if you know us, would not likely consider us immoral sinners. (well...maybe)

Church time was church time. Learning was reserved for the classroom. I never once likened what was taught in Sunday school to any kind of history or reality that had any bearing or consequence on anyone whatsoever. In fact--I never thought that was the intent. It seemed so silly, so hilarious.

Short answer: I did it for the boobs. (let's go back to the math theme to describe this time of my life: high school + hormones + church = AWESOME!)

Personally, I think Churches are for religious education, not schools/colleges. However, kids are berated for having religious beliefs. Even on their personal lunchtime, reading a Bible... ON THEIR PERSONAL LUNCH TIME, is social suicide.

You have to realize (you prolly do) is that it doesn't have to be vocally conveyed for people to hate it. You can just say you have a religious affiliation and that's it for your social life in school.

That's the problem.

Well, the solution is private schools. This is why they exist, also why homeschooling exists.

But if you look at where I grew up in North Carolina, despite my part of the state having a rather liberal bent to the general attitude of the community, there wasn't a public high school (including my own), that wasn't god friendly--and this is considered the best education in the state, and one of the better in the south east. There were at least 6 highly-popular Christian-themed clubs at my school. Not a damn person would ever consider attacking you for walking around with a bible, or criticizing you for it. Not one. (about 3k kids at the time)

Hell, even in the most impoverished, ignorant backwater part of the state where I first grew up (up until 3rd grade), you'd be hard-pressed to find someone berating you for reading a Bible. (but, you would get teased and abused for reading, though. "Learnin'" was simply uncool, and largely unacceptable. Belief in God is generally impervious to any such assaults, though.)

[Rob M.]

Originally Posted by alzan

You may choose to watch/not watch whatever television content you want, that was my point.

And no, I've never been told by the LGBT community that I'm going to a really horrible place when I die, unless I join their club; yet I've been told exactly that by strangers & relatives.

And I've been told that there's a special place in homophobic-ville for me if I don't join their club of acceptance, by strangers only...

[alzan]

Originally Posted by Rob M.

And I've been told that there's a special place in homophobic-ville for me if I don't join their club of acceptance, by strangers only...

There are those from all sides who do that. They've confused the message and use it as a threat or a reason to bash people emotionally and mentally.

But here's the thing: I know that there is no such a place as homophobic-ville, just as I know there's no heaven or hell waiting for me.

[Rob M.]

Originally Posted by zinfamous

We obviously have different standards of "proof." For me, my life is determined by evidence, proof doesn't really exist, to be honest. And more than anything else, there simply can be no proof, whatsoever, of God. Otherwise, you reject the concept of faith.

There are n inconsistencies in scientific opinion. That is simply how science works. We poke around and strive endlessly to find problems with the solutions that we have raised. When we find these problems, we raise new questions. The outsider thinks that science is the quest for answers. The scientist sees science as the quest for more questions. When we stop asking questions, we no longer accept science. This is why religion fails for so many people.

This is interesting.

Sure, we have different standards of proof, or evidence.

The reason why I bring up the inconsistencies in science isn't because I reject it, or think we shouldn't ask questions, however, I think we jump the gun on stuff, and have to find evidence to back the claims we make.

I think evoluntionary science is bent on "forcing" findings to fit their established theories. I've read things about some scientists finding ape-like skulls and concluding they could be early humans. Why can't they be extinct species of ape? Sure, they may resemble us, but they aren't identical.

That's where I am getting at.

[jackstar7]

Originally Posted by jackstar7

Why don't the folks with the mythological traditions just come up with a new word and leave marriage for the secular world that has adopted it?

Originally Posted by nehalem256

Why don't you quit claiming marriage is based on Christianity when it obviously isn't?

Or are you unable to make a case for gay marriage without resorting to calling anyone who opposes it a christian bigot?

Huh. Looks like you jumped to that conclusion by yourself...

[spittledip]

Originally Posted by sandorski

No. Their Beliefs have no place within Society.

Damn. That's some serious tyranny you got going there.

[wirelessenabled]

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Why don't we just have you bigoted pigs go fuck yourselves and let gay people get married. It's not that you worthless trash have any lock on virtue or represent anything sacred at all. There's nothing good about filthy bigots.

+3

[spittledip]

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Why don't we just have you bigoted pigs go fuck yourselves and let gay people get married. It's not that you worthless trash have any lock on virtue or represent anything sacred at all. There's nothing good about filthy bigots.

If there is anything sacred it doesn't come from people anyway. Everything that is sacred in this world is tarnished by man, but that does not mean we should tarnishing it even more.

[Pray To Jesus]

Originally Posted by zinfamous

It's the blatant hypocrites that annoy me--those that demand the attention given to minorities somehow offends them and infringes on their rights--that they, as Christians, are now being attacked
....
But be happy in life, avoid the things that offend you and bring discomfort, be a good Christian soldier and do what that communist Jesus bade you to do: be more tolerant, avoid being a dick, and so forth and so on.

Not under attack? See:

Originally Posted by sandorski
No. Their Beliefs have no place within Society.

Sandorski is a new atheist.

If people like sandorski are allowed to spread their ideals, soon Christians would be jailed for teaching their children about Jesus. Chuches would be closed. Public expression of faith made akin to child abuse.

The attack by the Evil One is not any specific events, but a slow and insidious corruption of the world.

[Moonbeam]

Originally Posted by Pray To Jesus

Not under attack? See:




Sandorski is a new atheist.

If people like sandorski are allowed to spread their ideals, soon Christians would be jailed for teaching their children about Jesus. Chuches would be closed. Public expression of faith made akin to child abuse.

The attack by the Evil One is not any specific events, but a slow and insidious corruption of the world.

And it already happened to you. You're so fucked up by religion you can't even see. The child abuse happened to you long ago. Now you work for the devil and think he's God.