787 electrical fires, they keep cropping up.

[EagleKeeper]

Link

JTSB clears battery maker, investigates Kanto Aircraft Instrument avionics
January 31, 2013
By Courtney Howard
Executive Editor

TOKYO, 31 Jan. 2013. Japan Transport Safety Board (JTSB) officials have closed their investigation of GS Yuasa, the Japan-based manufacturer of the lithium-ion batteries on Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft, and turned their attentions to Kanto Aircraft Instrument Co., maker of the 787 avionics system responsible for monitoring voltage, charge, and temperature of the lithium-ion batteries.

The Japan Transport Safety Board (JTSB), a division of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT), is Japan's authority for establishing transportation safety.

[LTC8K6]

I don't know what they are going to do, but I bet they wish they had stayed with the Saft ULM NiCads. They went with those in the 747-8i. Saft could probably have turned out a 32V version for the 787 with a lot less fuss.

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...22-12_en-2.pdf

[Red Squirrel]

At this point switching out the whole battery is probably their best bet. Lithium ion is actually not really meant to be in such large banks without very special cooling added to the battery. If these are not in the conditioned portion of the plane they are being put under extreme conditions.

[Number1]

Some progress so far, here are a few links for those interested.

Aviation Week

Boing 787 Electrical Systems

[OlafSicky]

Originally Posted by Red Squirrel

At this point switching out the whole battery is probably their best bet. Lithium ion is actually not really meant to be in such large banks without very special cooling added to the battery. If these are not in the conditioned portion of the plane they are being put under extreme conditions.

So why is it you know that and an army of Boeing engineers and the company that made them didn't know that?

[Kaido]

Originally Posted by OlafSicky

So why is it you know that and an army of Boeing engineers and the company that made them didn't know that?

You must not have much experience working at large companies A lot of stupid decisions are made for a variety of reasons, including to meet deadlines and to save face. And a lot of times the engineers & workers know that it's not going to work, but they're pushed into it by management, and since they value their jobs, they comply. Management figures the customer will already be invested and they can always fix the problems after shipping the product (re: Windows).

You can argue that the people in the know should do more about it, but one or a handful of people on just one component of a larger project are easy to dismiss from the company. Just look at the new iPhones...I'm a huge fan of Apple, but the iPhone 5 has been plagued by excessive purple flare in the cameras and the anodized finish flaking off out of the box...you can be sure they knew about those issues before shipping them because they test all of their stuff like crazy, but they were committed to a deadline and figured they could fix the issues in later revisions. Very few companies are willing to man up and fix the problems first at the expensive of deadline & feature changes

[LTC8K6]

http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releas...m?newsId=14394

FAA Approves Boeing 787 Certification Plan

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) today approved the Boeing Commercial Airplane Company's certification plan for the redesigned 787 battery system, after thoroughly reviewing Boeing’s proposed modifications and the company’s plan to demonstrate that the system will meet FAA requirements. The certification plan is the first step in the process to evaluate the 787’s return to flight and requires Boeing to conduct extensive testing and analysis to demonstrate compliance with the applicable safety regulations and special conditions.

“This comprehensive series of tests will show us whether the proposed battery improvements will work as designed,” said Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. “We won’t allow the plane to return to service unless we’re satisfied that the new design ensures the safety of the aircraft and its passengers.”

The battery system improvements include a redesign of the internal battery components to minimize initiation of a short circuit within the battery, better insulation of the cells and the addition of a new containment and venting system.

“We are confident the plan we approved today includes all the right elements to conduct a comprehensive evaluation of the battery system redesign,” said FAA Administrator Michael P. Huerta. “Today’s announcement starts a testing process which will demonstrate whether the proposed fix will work as designed.”

The certification plan requires a series of tests which must be passed before the 787 could return to service. The plan establishes specific pass/fail criteria, defines the parameters that should be measured, prescribes the test methodology and specifies the test setup and design. FAA engineers will be present for the testing and will be closely involved in all aspects of the process.

The FAA also has approved limited test flights for two aircraft. These aircraft will have the prototype versions of the new containment system installed. The purpose of the flight tests will be to validate the aircraft instrumentation for the battery and battery enclosure testing in addition to product improvements for other systems.

The FAA will approve the redesign only if the company successfully completes all required tests and analysis to demonstrate the new design complies with FAA requirements. The FAA’s January 16, 2013 airworthiness directive, which required operators to temporarily cease 787 operations, is still in effect, and the FAA is continuing its comprehensive review of the 787 design, production and manufacturing process.

[Number1]

Boeing Expects 787 Battery Tests To Be Completed In Weeks

[BUTCH1]

Originally Posted by Red Squirrel

At this point switching out the whole battery is probably their best bet. Lithium ion is actually not really meant to be in such large banks without very special cooling added to the battery. If these are not in the conditioned portion of the plane they are being put under extreme conditions.

You can't just throw in a lead-acid battery in a charging circuit designed for lithium-ion and be done with it, one would have to come up with a completely new setup designed from the ground up to work with a different battery type..

[Number1]

Looks like they have the problem, all possible problem with this system licked:

Identification of All Probable Causes and Development of Corrective Actions

Multiple Layers of Redundancy in Boeing's Measures

Meanwhile




Airbus Rolls Out First A350

[GTaudiophile]

That A350 is a beautiful bird. But so is the 787. Let the battle begin!

[Number1]

Originally Posted by GTaudiophile

That A350 is a beautiful bird. But so is the 787. Let the battle begin!

Competition is a beautiful thing.

Everybody wins.

[BUTCH1]

Originally Posted by Number1

Competition is a beautiful thing.

Everybody wins.

Hopefully the testing all goes well for Boeing, since none of the delivered units have been able to fly since mid January that's a lot of lost revenue to the carriers that bought the plane (and the delays in filling existing orders for the 787). With the airbus having such a head-start one has to wonder if the Dreamliner was pushed ahead too fast for proper systems evaluation, let's hope that's not the case or the FAA will NEVER get off their ass.

[BUTCH1]

Originally Posted by Number1

Looks like they have the problem, all possible problem with this system licked:

Identification of All Probable Causes and Development of Corrective Actions

Multiple Layers of Redundancy in Boeing's Measures

Meanwhile




Airbus Rolls Out First A350

This from one of your links,..."Adjust the torque appropriately to tighten the nut connecting the electrode"....huh? did some idiot forget to tighten the connector to the cell?, you would think that connector would have already had a hefty ft/lbs of torque applied to it, we've al seen what a loose connection on even a car battery can do..

[ElFenix]

Originally Posted by GTaudiophile

That A350 is a beautiful bird. But so is the 787. Let the battle begin!

they don't really compete. the 787 is roughly 767 size, while the A350 is roughly 777 size.



though the 777X project seems like it's quickly turning into boeing's A350. if you'll remember, the A350 started out as modest upgrades to the A330. but once you've got a new wing...