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Old 02-27-2013, 08:52 AM   #26
Mark Rejhon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantmagnet View Post
Yeah, that's a review from Spachala, the Australian CoD pro competition gaming team, they were the champions of several competitions there. There's also more reviews by other media and I've heard more are coming in the next few months.

P.S. Just updated the LightBoost HOWTO with some additional tips for those affected by specific needs:
-- TIP: Improving Convenience, Stability & Eliminating “Control+T” (allows VSYNC OFF)
-- TIP: Turning Off The LightBoost Hack Without Uninstalling

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Old 02-27-2013, 09:02 AM   #27
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is this possible with the overclocked 120hz 1440p panels? i assume not
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:54 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantmagnet View Post
The fact you even claim to have a CRT monitor and don't see it as better than an LCD puts your whole post into question.

The smoothness that can be achieved with a CRT as you increase frame rates is unparalleled to LCDs. Going as far back as Quake 3 the difference in reaction times while whipping your view around was vastly different when comparing the two.


Here is a great review that shows off the practicality of lightboost even if he used one of the crappier monitors to do it. (by crappy I mean the flicker effect from doing this trick is pretty obnoxious)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzYZWbov8v4
Why? Its proven that people who use LCD for a long period of time going back to a CRT is not noticeable to them in everyday use. Its also proven that people prefer LCD now due to brightness and contrast just looks better on a LCD than CRT. This can be replicated over and over with all sorts of technology not just monitors. Its the some nostalgia that people get when they think about stuff from the past and "how better it was" when nothing supports it other than peoples thinking that. Like i said before, if some actual test was done with gamers that showed difference between this and plain chain non tweaked lcd in a blind test it would make more sense to people. You see it all the time in the real world people swearing by one thing and turns out to not be true.

I would venture to guess than majority of people would not notice a difference in blind test if you put tweaked lightboost monitor vs not one in gaming.

Last edited by imaheadcase; 02-27-2013 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:16 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaheadcase View Post
I would venture to guess than majority of people would not notice a difference in blind test if you put tweaked lightboost monitor vs not one in gaming.
As someone who has read your posts, I find your guesses to be founded in no part of reality.

Also, don't use the word "proven" without a citation that backs up the claim.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:02 PM   #30
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Hey there, Mark, I wanted to ask one question about the Samsung instructions.

I believe I was able to get to the right point (but ran out of time to test when my lady showed up), but there are some options in the OSD that seem... just a touch confusing and I don't want to ennable something irrelevant to the process or miss a key step.

Is it too absurd to ask for a walkthrough with OSD pics to confirm the exact steps? I think I'm also confused because it just seems too easy...
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:37 PM   #31
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damn me for reading this thread. Just upgraded fromy my old 120hz Asus (gen 1) to a new VG278HE just so I can try this out.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:18 PM   #32
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Assuming I am doing things right, then I'm not seeing the benefits as I would have expected. I used Half Life 2 as a test and I was not seeing positives, but was seeing more tearing and I have no idea why that would be. I'll test more later when I get the chance again.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:56 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by jackstar7 View Post
Assuming I am doing things right, then I'm not seeing the benefits as I would have expected. I used Half Life 2 as a test and I was not seeing positives, but was seeing more tearing and I have no idea why that would be. I'll test more later when I get the chance again.
I tried it again and it works. I did a simple desktop test while in the Nvidia 3D menu. I enabled 3D and dragged the window back and forth and I was able to read the small text as I moved it. It was difficult, but it was just about readable during motion.
I turned off the 3D and moved the window...no go. The small text was totally smeared. So, this trick works, its just too bad that the screen is so dark, but perhaps I can crank my screen brightness as I think it is turned way down right now.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:05 PM   #34
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Yep, turn it up!!!
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post
Two Titans is a mammoth investment but should be able to allow the Crysis series at 120fps (most of the time) with lots of settings enabled.

It's correct 144 Hz is not supported, but fortunately, LightBoost 120fps@120Hz has much clearer motion than 144Hz non-LightBoost. This is attributed to the sample-and-hold effect contributing to perceived motion blur -- versus the impulse driven mode (CRT motion effect) -- frames being displayed for 6.9ms at 144 Hz (1/144sec = 6.9ms), versus frames strobed for only ~1.4ms to 2.4ms with 120 Hz LightBoost with black period between frames.

Also enabling SLI adds a tiny bit of input lag; you may want to try one Titan if you're just playing older Source-engine games (and other less demanding games) -- they run at 120fps just fine on my one GTX 680 for Source Engine games with everything enabled (including 8X AA).

P.S. I see from your signature that you're using three VG236H's. You must have a big budget and are very familar with the CRT motion effect and miss having that on LCD. Vega from HardForum (Sony FW900 CRT user) got one, and then liked the LightBoost effect so much that he just purchased three VG248QE's for Surround LightBoost. You should easily be able to get 120fps@120Hz in Source-Engine games with 5760x1080 with your upcoming dual-Titan setup. If you're investing this much in all of this, be noted that the colors does go a little wonky during LightBoost, but 3D Vision Blog has an article that says they fixed LightBoost colors it via calibration (using nVidia Control Panel adjustment, since monitor adjustments are locked when LightBoost is enabled; due to tight tolerance requirements). Followed the calibration (took over an hours fiddling), and it now looks practically as good without LightBoost (just less brightness). Triple LightBoost needs different modified instructions, google "3D Vision surround" (Control+T to turn off stereoscopic), but best to test with just one monitor first to see if you like the LightBoost effect or not. Not everyone does, but you probably will if you're someone who clearly sees the CRT vs LCD motion difference.

Would love to hear your results.
First of all, I am testing exclusively with a single Titan first, as I hate input lag.

Secondly, I am currently only using a single monitor right now, gave the other two to friends as I was not using them much.

I did buy the new asus 144hz 24" monitor though, as you recommended the 1ms response. Maybe I will buy two more one day, who knows.

I actually haven't used a CRT in years, and never had a good one back in the day, I'm a relatively new PC gamer (about 8 years now) so LCDs were just becoming affordable back then.

Can't wait to see this 'glassy' CRT look though, I will do ANYTHING for a smooth gaming experience. Look for a review/testing thread of a number of things involving this in a handful of days.

lastly, is it difficult to switch to '3D' mode in games if you actually want to use Lightboost for the 3d feature it was meant for originally ? Bought some glasses.
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:44 AM   #36
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Input lag on Benq XL2411T is less than 2ms.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:28 AM   #37
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Everytime I jump in BF3 the display reverts to its 2D profile (VG278H). How do I get it to stay in 3D mode?
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:50 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Whitestar127 View Post
Input lag on Benq XL2411T is less than 2ms.
Tests by users have shown that the XL2411T and VG248QE had identical input lag (at least in non-LightBoost mode).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annisman* View Post
lastly, is it difficult to switch to '3D' mode in games if you actually want to use Lightboost for the 3d feature it was meant for originally ? Bought some glasses.
It's quite easy if you use the Control+T method. Just follow the nVidia instructions to run the game in 3D stereoscopic mode. Hitting Control+T switches between 3D glasses modes, and the 2D mode (but keeping the strobe backlight, resulting in the zero-motion-blur effect). This is the "Vendor Supported" method of instructions instead of the "Hack Method" of instructions.

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Everytime I jump in BF3 the display reverts to its 2D profile (VG278H). How do I get it to stay in 3D mode?
Does the LightBoost effect work properly in a different game? I know that some people in HardForum said it was a Battlefield 3 specific behavior, and they were able to solve the BF3 problem. I presume Control+T doesn't work with BF3? Also, google "3D Vision with Battlefield 3" -- there's been a known issue enabling 3D Vision with Battlefield 3 and the same thing seems to happen with LightBoost.

You have the VG278H which has the built in emitter and thus does not require the .INF file. However, try installing the registry file if you don't mind doing a portion of the hack method (disclaimer, disclaimer!) ForceLightBoostWithoutGlasses.reg -- found in my HOWTO -- and then follow the tip to make LightBoost stick. ("TIP: Improving Convenience, Stability & Eliminating “Control+T” found in LightBoost HOWTO). This will make LightBoost keep functioning, even when the "Enable 3D Stereoscopic" checkbox is turned off; which then improves convenience, makes games run more reliably, and makes LightBoost VSYNC OFF operation more reliable. (less input lag).

Last edited by Mark Rejhon; 02-28-2013 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:55 PM   #39
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I tried it again and it works. I did a simple desktop test while in the Nvidia 3D menu. I enabled 3D and dragged the window back and forth and I was able to read the small text as I moved it. It was difficult, but it was just about readable during motion.
I turned off the 3D and moved the window...no go. The small text was totally smeared. So, this trick works, its just too bad that the screen is so dark, but perhaps I can crank my screen brightness as I think it is turned way down right now.
Yes, the strobe backlight does darken the picture which actually is good if you're gaming at night, but not as good if gaming in a bright room.
To brighten the image:
- Raise monitor's OSD contrast to 90 for ASUS, or 65 for BENQ
- Raise monitor's OSD LightBoost to 100%
- Finish calibrating via nVidia Control Panel.

The effect is actually far more noticeable in fast-twitch games, especially with a gaming mouse. You can also test PixPerAn too.

P.S. You can disable the "3D Stereoscopic" checkbox, then switch to 60 Hz then back to 120 Hz (I use MultiRes to do that quickly), to keep LightBoost turned off when you don't need it.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:59 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by jackstar7 View Post
Assuming I am doing things right, then I'm not seeing the benefits as I would have expected. I used Half Life 2 as a test and I was not seeing positives, but was seeing more tearing and I have no idea why that would be. I'll test more later when I get the chance again.
Tearing is more noticeable on CRT than LCD because the LCD motion blur has a habit of masking tearing somewhat. This also happens with strobe backlights too -- all motion artifacts become amplified, so you need as perfect motion as possible (120fps@120Hz). For testing, try temporarily turning VSYNC ON (during testing), and comparing before/after. It adds input lag but may look better for solo gaming when lag isn't as important. VSYNC OFF looks much better if you can uncap your framerate (e.g. run at 360fps at 120 Hz in Source Engine games) because the tearing becomes progressively fainter the more massively you exceed the refresh rate; until you can no longer detect the tearing. A GTX 680 or better helps greatly here.

To gain maximum benefit on CRT's or LightBoost:
For VSYNC ON (e.g. solo gaming) -- try to get 120fps@120Hz
For VSYNC OFF (e.g. competitive) -- try to get framerate massively exceeding Hz

Install PixPerAn (popularly used by reviewers such as prad.de and pcmonitors.info) and do a before/after test.

Last edited by Mark Rejhon; 02-28-2013 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:03 PM   #41
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Is there any reason to turn lightboost on or off ?
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:33 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Annisman* View Post
Is there any reason to turn lightboost on or off ?
It depends.
-- Some people (me, Vega, etc) like always keeping it on, our eyes aren't bothered by 120 Hz CRT's.
-- Others (elvn, etc) only turn it on during video games because eyes get tired after a while, like when playing on CRT (but not nearly as tired as when using 3D glasses). After a while (and many breaks), you get used to it, like when coming back to CRT's after using LCD's for years, though not everyone.
-- Also, LightBoost (designed to brighten 3D by synchronized flashes with the shutter glasses) actually looks darker for 2D without 3D glasses. This may be an issue when playing in bright daylight.
-- LightBoost add its own very slight input lag, due to the wait for a refresh to finish before strobing. That said, dozens of competition gamers have now noticed that the zero motion blur effect is more important for fast-action events -- improved reaction time (less brain lag) massively outweighs the LightBoost-added input lag that most of them can't notice -- due to improved scores with LightBoost than without.

BTW, if you prefer to play VSYNC OFF -- you have a massively powerful GPU so it's best to uncap you framerate as much as you can, (e.g. >360fps in Source Engine). It makes a difference in reduced tearing artifacts (at 360fps, three tiny tearlines occur per 120 Hz refresh -- this is better than one coarse large-offset tearline that is easier to see). Having crazy-high framerates actually improves "VSYNC OFF" smoothness for sensitive people by minimizing input lag & minimizing tearing to the point it finally almost looks like the smoothness of VSYNC ON but without the input lag. Since strobe displays such as CRT's and LightBoost, makes tearing easier to see. Though for solo gaming, I sometimes prefer VSYNC ON (Since some games runs smoother with VSYNC ON & when I solo, I usually can't feel the input lag & situations when don't need the competitive advantage of VSYNC OFF).

In order to maximize smoothness with LightBoost:
- LightBoost with VSYNC ON or adaptive VSYNC, use 120fps@120Hz
- LightBoost with VSYNC OFF, uncap your framerate and make it very far beyond 120fps

Last edited by Mark Rejhon; 02-28-2013 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:33 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post
It depends.
-- Some people (me, Vega, etc) like always keeping it on, our eyes aren't bothered by 120 Hz CRT's.
-- Others (elvn, etc) only turn it on during video games because eyes get tired after a while, like when playing on CRT (but not nearly as tired as when using 3D glasses). After a while (and many breaks), you get used to it, like when coming back to CRT's after using LCD's for years, though not everyone.
-- Also, LightBoost (designed to brighten 3D by synchronized flashes with the shutter glasses) actually looks darker for 2D without 3D glasses. This may be an issue when playing in bright daylight.
-- LightBoost add its own very slight input lag, due to the wait for a refresh to finish before strobing. That said, dozens of competition gamers have now noticed that the zero motion blur effect is more important for fast-action events -- improved reaction time (less brain lag) massively outweighs the LightBoost-added input lag that most of them can't notice -- due to improved scores with LightBoost than without.

BTW, if you prefer to play VSYNC OFF -- you have a massively powerful GPU so it's best to uncap you framerate as much as you can, (e.g. >360fps in Source Engine). It makes a difference in reduced tearing artifacts (at 360fps, three tiny tearlines occur per 120 Hz refresh -- this is better than one coarse large-offset tearline that is easier to see). Having crazy-high framerates actually improves "VSYNC OFF" smoothness for sensitive people by minimizing input lag & minimizing tearing to the point it finally almost looks like the smoothness of VSYNC ON but without the input lag. Since strobe displays such as CRT's and LightBoost, makes tearing easier to see. Though for solo gaming, I sometimes prefer VSYNC ON (Since some games runs smoother with VSYNC ON & when I solo, I usually can't feel the input lag & situations when don't need the competitive advantage of VSYNC OFF).

In order to maximize smoothness with LightBoost:
- LightBoost with VSYNC ON or adaptive VSYNC, use 120fps@120Hz
- LightBoost with VSYNC OFF, uncap your framerate and make it very far beyond 120fps
This is exactly how I play, I can't stand input lag so Vsync is NEVER used by me.

Thanks for your wealth of information btw.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:13 AM   #44
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The new monitor comes in later today!
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:48 AM   #45
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As someone who has read your posts, I find your guesses to be founded in no part of reality.

Also, don't use the word "proven" without a citation that backs up the claim.
I didn't. I would ask the OP to do the same, it is what I WAS saying. Nothing backs up this claim other than word of mouth.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:34 AM   #46
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I didn't.
Third word of your post (#28 in this thread): "proven"
Comes up more than once.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:55 PM   #47
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I didn't. I would ask the OP to do the same, it is what I WAS saying. Nothing backs up this claim other than word of mouth.
Nothing backs up this claim of yours other than your own opinion from a few words of mouth that you happened to come across.. gotcha!


Quote:
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BTW, if you prefer to play VSYNC OFF -- you have a massively powerful GPU so it's best to uncap you framerate as much as you can, (e.g. >360fps in Source Engine). It makes a difference in reduced tearing artifacts (at 360fps, three tiny tearlines occur per 120 Hz refresh -- this is better than one coarse large-offset tearline that is easier to see). Having crazy-high framerates actually improves "VSYNC OFF" smoothness for sensitive people by minimizing input lag & minimizing tearing to the point it finally almost looks like the smoothness of VSYNC ON but without the input lag.
I used to believe the same thing, but even at 200-400+ fps, there would still be severe tearing in some instances. I think it's just the way the drawing synchronizes with the output, like looking at a fan spinning so fast, that sometimes it appears to be spinning backwards.. harmonics in oscillation, perhaps?
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:38 PM   #48
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I used to believe the same thing, but even at 200-400+ fps, there would still be severe tearing in some instances. I think it's just the way the drawing synchronizes with the output, like looking at a fan spinning so fast, that sometimes it appears to be spinning backwards.. harmonics in oscillation, perhaps?
Yep. There will always be some "wagon wheel" effects on any finite-framerate displays -- beat frequencies will interplay between fps and Hz. Also, smooth delivery of frames (microstutters) actually affects appearance of tearing. For example, a small freeze followed by a big frame jump would result in a large coarse-offset tearline, no matter if you were playing at 60fps or 500fps. And running fps_max=240 or integer multiples of refresh, can result in a slow-moving tearline effects (two stationary tearlines during consistent 240fps @ 120Hz, three stationary tearlines during consistent 360fps @ 120 Hz when running old games that maxes out at your fps_max cap). That is the harmonic effect in tearing during fps versus Hz. Tearlines, DO generally, on average, become more invisible though, the higher the framerate you go. But framerate consistency is super duper important in reducing the appearance of tearing appearance. You want a steady framerate, no microstutters, and a massively high framerate, so you want a powerful CPU and GPU to maximize the consistency of frame-to-frame. Older games such as Quake Live have great frame-to-frame consistency and thus tearlines are more consistent offsets between frames.

During fluctuating framerates; a tearline at 100fps has twice the horizontal offset as a tearline at 200fps, which has twice again the offset at 400fps. But this can still happen even at 400fps; if a microstutter happens and two adjacent frames are rendered 1/100sec apart by chance instead of 1/400sec apart. (For the same speed horizontal motion). Doubled frame render times (even if just adjacent pairs of frames) results in twice-the-offset tearlines. Quadrupled meand quadruple the offset, and so on. So you get bad microstutter, you WILL see tearing more easily, especially on LightBoost or CRT (since motion blur can mask tearing)

Some workarounds:
- Use an fps_max far higher than 120fps
- Use an fps_max at an odd number, like 415 or 999, so you don't get harmonics between fps vs Hz (manifests as multiple slowly rolling tearlines)
- Cap at an odd framerate such as 127fps may actually look better than capping at 119/120/121 due to rolling tearline effects (harmonics).
- Try lightboost at 100fps @ 100Hz and see if the tearing appearance is less objectionable. More input lag, but sometimes zero microstutters is more important than a tiny 1ms input lag difference. Worth testing.

Also temporarily turn on VSYNC. It is a dreaded setting, but sometimes the LightBoost effect behaves better, especially if your GPU is struggling or microstuttering. Also, adaptive VSYNC has less input lag than regular VSYNC ON, so try that option too as a compromise/workaround, too.

Worse comes to worse, try 144 Hz non-LightBoost. More motion blur but harder-to-see VSYNC OFF tearing. Many 144 Hz monitors happen to have LightBoost (120Hz) so you can try both settings; they are still great gaming LCD's.

Also, an SSD reduces stutters (game data loads), which in turns reduces those tear offsets during stutters. So you must eliminate all weak links. Core i7, SSD, Titan, LightBoost, and all.

I'm quite sensitive to tearing too (hate it), not just motion blur (hate it too).

Last edited by Mark Rejhon; 03-01-2013 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:28 PM   #49
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You're a man after my own heart Mark Rejhon !

I've got a 6 core i7 at 4.4Ghz, two Titans, my games running off a blazing fast SSD, gaming mouse/kb and soon a new 1ms response 144hz monitor + lightboost hack.

Think I've got the hardware part down.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:49 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Annisman* View Post
The new monitor comes in later today!
Out of curiosity, where did you order from?
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