Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[OCNewbie]

Originally Posted by echo4747

"thought Martin was someone he wasn't" What are you claiming GZ thought Martin was?

Tom believes (I'm sharing this based on previous posts of his) that GZ actually took a moment's contemplation before shooting TM, and figured "eh, what the heck, it's a burglar, so I'll be praised for doing this" and that's WHY he shot him. Not because GZ had been screaming for who knows how long, and TM was on top of him, and that TM had already allegedly broken his nose, allegedly slammed his head into the concrete multiple times, and allegedly struck him a number of times as well, or that GZ legitimately feared for his life. Despite the evidence that supports those things happening, I don't believe Tom thinks they actually happened.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by OCNewbie

We know GZ had injuries, TM had none, we know someone was screaming, and I think if we're honest we know that the person who had an obvious reason to be screaming was the one with the injuries. We know that GZ was on the bottom of TM, as confirmed by the witness closest to the action (which I believe, Tom, you'll probably want to dispute), we also "know" that ballistics show that TM was on top of GZ when the shot was fired

None of GZ's "mistakes", by themselves, would have caused any harm to come to anybody. There is no consensus on him making "rash" decisions. There is no conclusive proof that shows TM wasn't who GZ thought he was. TM was unarmed, but that didn't stop him from breaking GZ's nose, causing GZ to receive lacerations to the back of his head, etc.

You are selectively focusing on a very narrow cropping of "facts", and actually, only one of them (that TM was unarmed) is agreed upon by the majority of those on either side of the argument.

I'm not arguing the case. I'm arguing with your description of the simplest explanation, based on facts.

It isn't the number of mistakes Zimmerman made that matters, its what happened because of them. And if you are looking for the simplest conclusion you don't begin by ignoring the actual facts in favor of a story that is not supported by any facts at all.
Its possible Martin was a crazed maniacal burglar thug out looking for victims, but there's zero actual evidence of that. He was where he belonged, not carrying a gun a knife a screwdriver.

[soundforbjt]

Originally Posted by echo4747

"thought Martin was someone he wasn't" What are you claiming GZ thought Martin was?

"He's looks like he's on drugs or something"
"He's got something in his waistband"
"He looks like he's up to no good"
"We've had a lot of break-ins here recently"

[OCNewbie]

Originally Posted by Tom

We know Zimmerman made mistakes, made rash decisions, thought Martin was someone he wasn't, and killed an unarmed juvenile.

Those are facts. What you call the simplest explanation, isn't the simplest.

Originally Posted by Tom

It isn't the number of mistakes Zimmerman made that matters, its what happened because of them.

Please, so we can agree at least on what was factually a mistake made by GZ, and what the specific consequence was, that can be attributed ONLY to that particular mistake, I'd like to know.

Originally Posted by Tom

And if you are looking for the simplest conclusion you don't begin by ignoring the actual facts in favor of a story that is not supported by any facts at all.

You are picking and choosing what you want to label as facts, and coincidentally, none of them favor GZ's innocence.

Originally Posted by Tom

Its possible Martin was a crazed maniacal burglar thug out looking for victims, but there's zero actual evidence of that.

You're ignoring the actual arguments presented as nobody has claimed the above.

Originally Posted by Tom

He was where he belonged, not carrying a gun a knife a screwdriver.

Actually, unless you want to take GZ at his word, we don't have any idea about where TM was, or whether or not he was where he belonged. We only know for sure where his body ended up. If you want to take GZ at his word, then TM was walking between houses, where he was NOT supposed to be, as that's technically trespassing.

[OCNewbie]

Originally Posted by soundforbjt

"He looks like he's up to no good OR he's on drugs OR something" (Drugs were found in his system, and there's no way to prove what he was actually up to)
"He's got his hand in his waistband"
"We've had some break-ins in my neighborhood"

My corrections are underlined, my comments in bold

[echo4747]

I think both GZ and TM made rash decisions. In fact, TM was probably first. I say this because:
-He entered this Retreat view complex which clearly had signs stating it was a neighborhood watch community (tells a person its likely residents maybe "looking out" for each other)
- he was wandering around on the lawns of these townhouses during a rainy/windy evening (possibly staring at houses) with his hand in his waistband ..instead of walking down the sidewalk or street
-even though he had every right to be there as he was invited to stay at Brandi Greens place, TM should have known he would be viewed as a stranger to the residents there and this type of behavior would be viewed as suspicious.

I don't think those are things are prudent person does.

[umbrella39]

Originally Posted by EagleKeeper

Those rules were suspended.

However if the relaxation is abused those rules can be returned quickly and enforced.

Let's just hope the scrutiny isn't selective should they return... Sorry EK, but links with big fonts, bolds, colors and no personal commentary in rapid succession isn't appealing in an inbox and certainly not while browsing a forum. I don't want to put the guy on ignore he might actually have some good commentary so I don't see that as a good solution. When I enter someone's house for the first time I don't try and impose my will and go against the grain. When I see someone who does I think, now there is someone who has an agenda. Whether that be the case or not in this instance remains to be seen, less copy and paste and more actual keystrokes would be appreciated Dark but do as you see fit. So long as the mods don't take issue with it you don't need my two cents. Just a humble request that if you are going to take the time to post here actually do some posting...

[umbrella39]

Originally Posted by Darkman

Well, regardless if Trayvon was troubled or not, in gang or not ... he almost reached the status of Sainthood after his death ...

Only in eyes of those who have myopia... Saint or Thug... not sure that trying to paint Martin as the latter would be a wise road to travel down if I were Zimmerman's lawyer. Not sure how a jury would receive that considering his walk home from the 7-11 and up until his confrontation with Zimmerman was a fairly thug free experience... He will have his day in court and then all the speculation and the armchair scenarios can finally put aside and culpability can finally be put on one, the other, or both...

[OCNewbie]

umbrella... I don't get it... why are you being rational all of a sudden? Who hacked your account?!

[OCNewbie]

I thought this was interesting:

Unlike Zimmerman's team, the Martin family hasn't chosen to release photos. There is no stark image of Trayvon's dead body -- shot through the chest -- bloodied in the gardens of Sanford, with his knuckles bruised from a fight for his life.

From this article: http://www.theroot.com/views/has-geo...button_toolbar

I know people in here earlier were debating whether or not TM had bruises on his knuckles, but it's interesting to see a "Black News, Opinion, Politics and Culture" website stating that as fact.

[Darkman]

Has George Zimmerman Won the Media War?
A year after he shot and killed Trayvon Martin, the defendant's press
 blitz is paying off.
http://www.theroot.com/views/has-geo...-won-media-war

[Darkman]

Product Marketing – I Wonder If Most People Know The Origin or “Intent” Behind The Product…



http://theconservativetreehouse.file...13/02/lean.jpg

[airdata]

Team Zimmerman : George Zimmerman can defend himself with lethal force.

Team Zimmerman : Trayvon martin can't defend himself with non lethal force.

[airdata]

Originally Posted by Darkman

Product Marketing – I Wonder If Most People Know The Origin or “Intent” Behind The Product…



http://theconservativetreehouse.file...13/02/lean.jpg

sorry, why did you post this here? Trayvon's black, black people like lean, so black therefore the company making this is marketing toward black people? or are you just lost and don't know where to post this.

[They Live]

Originally Posted by Darkman

hopefully NOT riots, next ... with cities / towns burning .. and innocent people getting slaughtered by packs of wild thugs (aka animals).

What makes you think there won't be riots if he's convicted?

[OCNewbie]

Originally Posted by They Live

What makes you think there won't be riots if he's convicted?

Has it been GZ or TM supporters that have already held multiple marches at this point? The TM supporters have already shown their willingness to band together and take to the streets, and nothing like that (at least that I'm aware of) has yet taken place on the GZ side. Don't riots usually occur when people feel like someone has gotten away with a crime, especially against a minority, anyway? I imagine that's why most people wouldn't put equal odds for riots to occur if GZ is convicted.

[Darkman]

George Zimmerman’s lawyer may not cite ‘Stand Your Ground’ law to defend Trayvon Martin’s killer...

Mark O'Mara may use traditional self-defense argument. Says Zimmerman didn't even get a chance to 'stand his ground'

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1275249

[umbrella39]

Originally Posted by OCNewbie

umbrella... I don't get it... why are you being rational all of a sudden? Who hacked your account?!

OC this place had gotten so bad I started trolling, trolls. I'm not proud of it as it adds very little to the discussions... 12 stepping it, first step is acknowledging the problem

[They Live]

Originally Posted by OCNewbie

Has it been GZ or TM supporters that have already held multiple marches at this point? The TM supporters have already shown their willingness to band together and take to the streets, and nothing like that (at least that I'm aware of) has yet taken place on the GZ side. Don't riots usually occur when people feel like someone has gotten away with a crime, especially against a minority, anyway? I imagine that's why most people wouldn't put equal odds for riots to occur if GZ is convicted.

Usually, yes.

In the mind of many Zimmerman supporters, him getting convicted would be a crime. Thus, it's not out of the realm of possibility that those on his side who are extremely emotionally invested in this case may take their anger out onto the streets if he's convicted, especially since they believe he's being railroaded.

I'm not saying it would happen, just that it's very possible. Most tend to believe there will only be riots if he's acquitted. Me personally, I don't believe that's the case.

[OCNewbie]

Originally Posted by They Live

Usually, yes.

In the mind of many Zimmerman supporters, him getting convicted would be a crime. Thus, it's not out of the realm of possibility that those on his side who are extremely emotionally invested in this case may take their anger out onto the streets if he's convicted, especially since they believe he's being railroaded.

I'm not saying it would happen, just that it's very possible. Most tend to believe there will only be riots if he's acquitted. Me personally, I don't believe that's the case.

I'll concede that it's possible. Honestly though, if anything, I think there would more likely be protests, or marches or something, rather than car-burning, store-looting, random-person attacking, eggo-stealing, call-in-the-national-guard riots. We'll see.

[They Live]

Originally Posted by OCNewbie

I'll concede that it's possible. Honestly though, if anything, I think there would more likely be protests, or marches or something, rather than car-burning, store-looting, random-person attacking, call-in-the-national-guard riots. We'll see.

Just curious about something. You live in Orlando, which I imagine is pretty damn close to where this whole incident happened. Have you ever driven by the area, and perhaps taken a look at the neighborhood itself? Maybe possibly go inside the neighborhood and take a look at the exact area where this all happened?

[OCNewbie]

Originally Posted by They Live

Just curious about something. You live in Orlando, which I imagine is pretty damn close to where this whole incident happened. Have you ever driven by the area, and perhaps taken a look at the neighborhood itself? Maybe possibly go inside the neighborhood and take a look at the exact area where this all happened?

No, but I've thought about it. It would only be a 32 minute drive according to Google maps. I've been really tempted to go there to measure those damn sidewalk tiles, as that was debated heavily on here a while ago, and would give more insight into how far away from the "T" TM's body actually was. As it's a gated, private community, and with all the attention it's gotten, I'm a little concerned about possibly getting in trouble for trespassing though, tbh. Maybe my concerns are unwarranted, I dunno.

[They Live]

Originally Posted by OCNewbie

No, but I've thought about it. It would only be a 32 minute drive according to Google maps. I've been really tempted to go there to measure those damn sidewalk tiles, as that was debated heavily on here a while ago, and would give more insight into how far away from the "T" TM's body actually was. As it's a gated, private community, and with all the attention it's gotten, I'm a little concerned about possibly getting in trouble for trespassing though, tbh. Maybe my concerns are unwarranted, I dunno.

I don't think this would be an issue, IMO, as this guy who I believe doesn't live there has gone multiple times and made videos about it. He even took a "tour" with a George's friend Frank Taaffe.

https://www.youtube.com/user/marinadedave?feature=watch

[emperus]

Originally Posted by Darkman

How many innocent black youth get killed in Chicago on constant basis .. and you hardly ever hear about it..

And what point are you trying to make?

[emperus]

Originally Posted by Geosurface

A lot of it is gang on gang violence, so I'm not entirely sure about the "innocent" part. Though, certainly a LOT of the deaths are of innocent black youth. Just wanted to clarify that they aren't ALL so.

Lol. Still at Geo. You just can't help yourself can you?