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Old 02-26-2013, 11:55 AM   #1
busydude
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Default The rise of anti-vaccination movement in the US.

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.co...ount/Home.html

First of all, it is not right to blame only McCarthy for the rise of anti-vaccination movement in the US, but it is undeniable that she played a huge role in using her public image to propagate pseudo-science and sway the opinion of the gullible towards anti-vaccine.

The rise in outbreaks of measles and whooping cough is of a real concern, thanks to the role played by parents in opting their children out of vaccinations.

This is a neat infograph that speaks for itself:



Here is the link to an article detailing the rise of pertussis in Vermont and how the anti-vaccination movement is getting more powerful by the day.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health...ne.single.html

On a personal note, I grew up in the third world and saw how people suffered first hand due to not being vaccinated. Just because people here in the US haven't experienced these.. that doesn't mean the reality of danger isn't there. It is deeply concerning that people who have cognitive bias are the ones who tend to be more vocal and they generally try to be willfully ignorant of facts that contradict them.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:06 PM   #2
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I don't know of two sides to this issue - only the one that says yes, be careful - which I think we are - and how do we better educate people and vaccinate more widely?

An issue comes up not with what's right on vaccination, but the issue of a parent's right to do the wrong thing for their child.

It can sound terribly infringing on parental authority to say 'yes, your child has to be vaccinated' - but we infringe when it comes to having the kid smoke cigarettes.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:33 PM   #3
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I don't know of two sides to this issue - only the one that says yes, be careful - which I think we are - and how do we better educate people and vaccinate more widely?

An issue comes up not with what's right on vaccination, but the issue of a parent's right to do the wrong thing for their child.

It can sound terribly infringing on parental authority to say 'yes, your child has to be vaccinated' - but we infringe when it comes to having the kid smoke cigarettes.
It is the parents responsibility to make sure they do their homework on what is right or wrong. They have to decide on behalf of the child on what is good for him/her. Right now studies overwhelmingly state that vaccinations do improve the chances of a child to survive vs not getting vaccinated.
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:16 PM   #4
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An issue comes up not with what's right on vaccination, but the issue of a parent's right to do the wrong thing for their child.
It's trickier than that. If a parent doesn't vaccinate their child, that child is unlikely to die of measles, say, even if they get it. The children most likely to die of measles are the ones that don't have fully-functioning immune systems yet (i.e. those that are also too young to be vaccinated), who rely on herd immunity.

As a result, the parent who doesn't vaccinate their child is hurting some other child more than they're hurting the one that isn't vaccinated.

You know what the funny part is? The disease from which measles comes--rinderpest--has been eradicated. The last cow known to have the disease was found in 2001. It's oddly easier for us to eliminate the disease from cattle than from humans. Go figure.
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:57 PM   #5
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<car_analogy> It's like a drunk driver with air bags -- they might survive after plowing into someone else and killing them. </car_analogy>

This is a case where they are endangering others through their anti-science beliefs, so in my mind they give up some rights doing this.

I can see two options:
- Force them to live in like-minded communities with other anti-science parents (e.g. some Amish community)
- Force them to get their children vaccinated if their children will be allowed to interact with others who have not chosen to deny facts about disease transmission.

That sounds harsh, but it's a crime to fire a gun at random into a town, and letting a measles-infected kid wander around infecting others is equally irresponsible.

I'm strongly in favor of the rights of the individual, but not when exercising those rights endangers others.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:03 PM   #6
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It is the parents responsibility to make sure they do their homework on what is right or wrong. They have to decide on behalf of the child on what is good for him/her. Right now studies overwhelmingly state that vaccinations do improve the chances of a child to survive vs not getting vaccinated.
Not all have the ability and interest to become sufficiently and reliably informed.

Vaccinations are not just a private decision but of great concern to society. Society and the medical community have a great responsibility to help EVERYONE become well informed and be made well aware that neglecting vaccinations may not only increase the risk of harm to these peoples' own children but also increase the risk upon far more children and adults that are well disconnected from a personal bubble. Civilisation is connected.

Your framing is incorrect. A focus only upon individualism is an unrealistic disconnect from the greater world. It is very wrong and ill to portray this issue as only that of a responsibility of individual parenting.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:14 PM   #7
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I've absolutely got to make a comment on this. Just like DaveSimmons, I'm strongly in favor of the rights of the individual, but NOT when exercising those rights endangers other citizens.

I'd also like to tack on another point or two.

First as a practicing ER/trauma nurse, I see this at least once a week. I've heard all kind of lame excuses, including using Jenny McCarthy as a reference(insaneeeee!!) But one of the worst I heard was last week. A roughly 21 year old brought her 3 year old in, for fever, runny nose, cough...and I asked her in triage if her child was vaccinated(standard question we ask), she said to me and I quote, "I don't believe in the science of vaccines and therefore will not get my child vaccinated."

My head dang near exploded from my neck. The stupidity of her statement was just so insane to me. You don't believe in the science?? Science doesn't REQUIRE your beliefs because it seeks out FACTS. And facts are truth. They don't require faith or worship.

Moreover, her son ended up having pertussis, or whooping cough. Something they vaccinate for. Just so insane to me.

We human beings enjoy our longevity in part due to vaccinations. We are healthier because of vaccines. I'm going to stop now before I rage post like a crazy man.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:32 PM   #8
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We human beings enjoy our longevity in part due to vaccinations. We are healthier because of vaccines. I'm going to stop now before I rage post like a crazy man.
This is the reason why (some) people don't think vaccinations are necessary - because we don't see these diseases anymore (or rarely, until the anti-vac movement started). I've heard many people say things along the lines of "Nobody gets polio anymore, my child doesn't need the vaccine". What they can't seem to understand is that the reason people don't get those diseases anymore is BECAUSE of the vaccines!
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:22 PM   #9
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It's trickier than that. If a parent doesn't vaccinate their child, that child is unlikely to die of measles, say, even if they get it. The children most likely to die of measles are the ones that don't have fully-functioning immune systems yet (i.e. those that are also too young to be vaccinated), who rely on herd immunity. As a result, the parent who doesn't vaccinate their child is hurting some other child more than they're hurting the one that isn't vaccinated.
I can easily envision a scenario where a population basically serves as a breeding ground for these nearly-eradicated diseases because they insist on being stupid. They would allow these diseases to continue spreading, affecting those with weakened immune systems (or those where the vaccine could not be administered or was not effective) and in the long run, endanger the efficacy of the vaccine itself, as the diseases would have more time to mutate and 'beat' the protections the vaccines offer.

Chemophobia seems to be running rampant in society. It's a sorry state, as science has brought so much good, vaccines being one of the major triumphs. As a biophysical chemist, it also bothers me to no end when people start spouting their ignorant drivel and the masses flock to them. I don't go to their place of work, totally ignorant of what they do, and start telling them they are wrong. Plus, it's not like there isn't a mountain of evidence in support of vaccination.

People have to accept that at some point, sometimes they just have to trust the experts. No one can be an expert in everything.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:27 PM   #10
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Right now studies overwhelmingly state that vaccinations do improve the chances of a child to survive vs not getting vaccinated.
AS MUCH AS i FAVOR VACCINATIONS....
The way you worded this sounds exactly like when somebody says -- everybody knows.....link your studies...
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:22 AM   #11
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You educated me that there is such a movement in the US, I would have always assumed diseases we cured were returning through immigration on our southern border.

As much as I dislike the risk associated with vaccines, everyone in my family has been through them, myself included. Therefore I cannot make any reasonable claim against them. I will have any children I have vaccinated.

I do hope that we research safer means of delivery, as some people do seem to have adverse reactions to the current injection solution. There are even claims of mercury being in them, or that the age we vaccinate is too young. Those are some issues I'd be happy to see the government address.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:54 AM   #12
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What danger does someone pose who isn't vaccinated to someone who is?

Mostly in response to DaveSimmons.

I can see the dangers of people saying not to get vaccinated.

I can see the dangers of parents not vaccinated their kids.

I'm unsure of the dangers that someone who isn't vaccinated poses to anybody else. It's basically a completely contained problem, unless you are concerned about other people's children or other people in general.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:45 AM   #13
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You educated me that there is such a movement in the US, I would have always assumed diseases we cured were returning through immigration on our southern border.

As much as I dislike the risk associated with vaccines, everyone in my family has been through them, myself included. Therefore I cannot make any reasonable claim against them. I will have any children I have vaccinated.

I do hope that we research safer means of delivery, as some people do seem to have adverse reactions to the current injection solution. There are even claims of mercury being in them, or that the age we vaccinate is too young. Those are some issues I'd be happy to see the government address.
The government pretty much has addressed them (despite the Republican efforts to kill pretty much everything government except military spending).

On this, Robert Kennedy, Jr. has some blame. I like Kennedy on nearly every issue - but he went off prematurely based on early evidence on vaccinations.

IMO, science has found his position to be baseless, but I have not seen him admit a mistake, disappointingly.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:47 AM   #14
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What danger does someone pose who isn't vaccinated to someone who is?

Mostly in response to DaveSimmons.

I can see the dangers of people saying not to get vaccinated.

I can see the dangers of parents not vaccinated their kids.

I'm unsure of the dangers that someone who isn't vaccinated poses to anybody else. It's basically a completely contained problem, unless you are concerned about other people's children or other people in general.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/op...nate.html?_r=0
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:50 AM   #15
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I think someone who doesn't vaccinate is the ultimate egoist, and he endagers his kids life too since due to this anti-science fad, not vaccinating is nowadays outright dangerous.

The statistics are facts.

The side effects of vaccines are rare enough.

It's like hating on DDT ignoring the fact that it eradicated malaria from many places. Or hating the industrial revolution because all that coal smog killed lots of people. Each of these things slashed the amount of deaths.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:34 AM   #16
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AS MUCH AS i FAVOR VACCINATIONS....
The way you worded this sounds exactly like when somebody says -- everybody knows.....link your studies...
It's quite difficult to link individual child survival with getting vaccinated, since in a vaccinated community, the individual is reasonably well protected. As I said earlier, It's not as much the electively unvaccinated child as the child too young to be vaccinated that's at risk.

What you can do, though, is look at what happened on the whole when the measles vaccine was introduced:



Or how about Pertussis?


Or tetanus?



There's a bunch of other diseases I could quote with equally impressive results (mumps, diptheria, etc.), but you get the point.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:23 AM   #17
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It's basically a completely contained problem, unless you are concerned about other people's children or other people in general.
Quite an unrealistic and detached disclaimer there.

There actually are people who are concerned about the health of strangers...

Despite your underlined prioritised feeling, society is not that of isolated and individualistic pens.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:31 AM   #18
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I have friends that are so anti vaccine that it's almost ridiculous. They won't travel if it requires shots and they would rather let their kids die than get a vaccine. Their fears are autism predominantly but there's also a fear of bowel movement disorders.

When I called them on it I was linked a number of "papers". To them they're scientific papers that justify their position. They also link to anecdotal stories about people getting sick right after getting vaccinated. If you read these papers though you quickly realize there's nothing scientific about them. When they link to a published scientific paper it is always the 1998 paper in the Lancet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy

When you confront them about the fact that the paper was debunked and the man lost both his job, his medical license, and that deaths have been linked to the scare they ignore that. I have confronted my friends to the point where it was literally tearing the fabric of their reality apart but at that point I had to back off or risk losing their friendship. You can see their bodies react in a way that can best be described as what I'd expect a Christian would experience if you could prove Jesus and God don't exist. There is nothing that can be done to persuade them that there is no medical research to support their views.

It's very much like religion. They believe in this and there's nothing you can do to change them. Uneducated people like Jenny Mccarthy don't help matters much. 25% of parents get their autism information from her. She published a book around the same time as the debunked article and I don't think she has stepped back from her position despite the study being discredited.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:36 AM   #19
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What danger does someone pose who isn't vaccinated to someone who is?

Mostly in response to DaveSimmons.

I can see the dangers of people saying not to get vaccinated.

I can see the dangers of parents not vaccinated their kids.

I'm unsure of the dangers that someone who isn't vaccinated poses to anybody else. It's basically a completely contained problem, unless you are concerned about other people's children or other people in general.
It's called Herd Immunity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

It's especially important if your child is going to daycare with kids that are not vaccinated.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:26 AM   #20
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I am only against some vaccines. Like flu vaccines and chicken-pox. Flu, because i believe that as we keep fighting it with vaccines it will just become stronger. I also dont like the fact about giving a baby a flu shot. Chicken pox i am against as you still have a good chance getting it as an adult and it is much more deadlier as an adult. If the child doesnt get the chicken pox by 18 then they may consider it. I got the chickenpox 35 years ago as a kid and I remember all my moms friends bringing their kids over to catch it from me. Ah, the good old 60s/70s.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:35 AM   #21
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I am only against some vaccines. Like flu vaccines and chicken-pox. Flu, because i believe that as we keep fighting it with vaccines it will just become stronger. I also dont like the fact about giving a baby a flu shot. Chicken pox i am against as you still have a good chance getting it as an adult and it is much more deadlier as an adult. If the child doesnt get the chicken pox by 18 then they may consider it. I got the chickenpox 35 years ago as a kid and I remember all my moms friends bringing their kids over to catch it from me. Ah, the good old 60s/70s.
Never even heard of people getting a Chicken Pox vaccine. I'm with you on that. Handcuff the kid to a wall (at least that's what I wanted), cover them in lotion, and bring all the neighborhood kids over who haven't gotten it yet.

I only get the Flu shot when I'm traveling to a 3rd world country and want to minimize my chances of getting sick there.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:32 AM   #22
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I think someone who doesn't vaccinate is the ultimate egoist, and he endagers his kids life too since due to this anti-science fad, not vaccinating is nowadays outright dangerous.

The statistics are facts.

The side effects of vaccines are rare enough.
Egoist and stupid. It greatly saddens and confounds me that it seems to be gaining ground.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:43 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Oyeve View Post
I am only against some vaccines. Like flu vaccines and chicken-pox. Flu, because i believe that as we keep fighting it with vaccines it will just become stronger. I also dont like the fact about giving a baby a flu shot. Chicken pox i am against as you still have a good chance getting it as an adult and it is much more deadlier as an adult. If the child doesnt get the chicken pox by 18 then they may consider it. I got the chickenpox 35 years ago as a kid and I remember all my moms friends bringing their kids over to catch it from me. Ah, the good old 60s/70s.
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Never even heard of people getting a Chicken Pox vaccine. I'm with you on that. Handcuff the kid to a wall (at least that's what I wanted), cover them in lotion, and bring all the neighborhood kids over who haven't gotten it yet.

I only get the Flu shot when I'm traveling to a 3rd world country and want to minimize my chances of getting sick there.
Ever hear of Shingles? It's a very painful disease that occurs as a direct result of the dormant chickenpox virus (which happens when the initial infection goes away).

Additional complications can arise from the lesions that form on children's skin with the infection. And then even worse for immune compromised individuals (where vaccine efficacy would be very low).

As for the flu - to think that vaccines make the flu stronger is just a preposterous assertion and completely ignores how immunizations and disease actually works. Influenza readily changes on its own and you would see the same effects if people gained 'natural' immunity through illness instead of vaccination. If we didn't vaccinate, more people would get sick, more people would die, and there would be greater economic loss for people taking sick days.

Edit:
I cannot think of a good scientific reason to be against vaccinations of any sort. I mean, you might as well just say, "I'd rather get sick." Utterly preposterous.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:48 PM   #24
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Articles like this don't help.

Study boosts link between flu vaccine, sleep disorder

Quote:
AFP - A study in England has strengthened evidence from Scandinavia that a vaccine used to prevent pandemic flu boosted the risk of sleep disorder among teens and children, doctors said on Tuesday.

Using the Pandemrix vaccine increased the risk of narcolepsy among people aged four to 18 by a factor of 14 compared to those who did not get the jab, they said.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:16 PM   #25
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I can see two options:
- Force them to live in like-minded communities with other anti-science parents (e.g. some Amish community)
Having grown up in an Anabaptist community, I want to assure you that most (not all) Amish do get vaccinations. They also pray a lot.
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