Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Hardware and Technology > Memory and Storage

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals with Free Stuff/Contests
· Black Friday 2013
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-23-2013, 07:14 PM   #1
Mfusick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 500
Default Please set the record straight. Does WD green drives have head parking ?

Quote:
NoTouch Ramp Load technology.
The recording head never touches the disk media ensuring significantly less wear to the recording head and media as well as better drive protection in transit.
Does that mean that the WD Green drives do or do not park the head after 8 seconds causing higher number of on/off cycles in 27/7 NAS or Server operations?

I've seen conflicting information and I am confused.

Does or does not WD green have head parking ?

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=780
Mfusick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2013, 07:46 PM   #2
Cerb
Elite Member
 
Cerb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,056
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Does that mean that the WD Green drives do or do not park the head after 8 seconds causing higher number of on/off cycles in 27/7 NAS or Server operations?
Neither.

All the quoted gibberish means is that WD has marketing weenies that are good at convincing people they are worth employing.

If a head touches a platter, you can kiss your data goodbye. If you're lucky, the hard drive will immediately show operational problems. That's not at all special. Also, any modern drive will park its heads when it turns off (when the coil loses power, the permanent magnet pulls it out of the way).

Power cycles are determined by the user's choices, the OS' settings, and the quality of service from your electrical service provider.

AFAIK, WD Greens, and most Scorpios, automatically park the heads, though WD greens do it often enough to affect Linux performance. It's a Linux performance issue. Nothing to do with reliability.

Finally, what you want is a Red, not a Green. No head parking while not told to be idle, TLER, specified for greater vibration tolerance, wear-leveling (for WORM data), and not as expensive as REs.
__________________
"The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows." - Frank Zappa
Cerb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 01:14 PM   #3
Mfusick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerb View Post
Neither.

All the quoted gibberish means is that WD has marketing weenies that are good at convincing people they are worth employing.

If a head touches a platter, you can kiss your data goodbye. If you're lucky, the hard drive will immediately show operational problems. That's not at all special. Also, any modern drive will park its heads when it turns off (when the coil loses power, the permanent magnet pulls it out of the way).

Power cycles are determined by the user's choices, the OS' settings, and the quality of service from your electrical service provider.

AFAIK, WD Greens, and most Scorpios, automatically park the heads, though WD greens do it often enough to affect Linux performance. It's a Linux performance issue. Nothing to do with reliability.

Finally, what you want is a Red, not a Green. No head parking while not told to be idle, TLER, specified for greater vibration tolerance, wear-leveling (for WORM data), and not as expensive as REs.
Thanks for intelligent reply.
Mfusick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 02:08 PM   #4
Turbonium
Golden Member
 
Turbonium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,653
Default

Cerb: so a Red is basically as good or better than a Green in EVERY way, including power consumption? Interesting.
__________________
For Sale thread
WTB thread
Turbonium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 02:20 PM   #5
beginner99
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,140
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbonium View Post
Cerb: so a Red is basically as good or better than a Green in EVERY way, including power consumption? Interesting.
it's also more expensive.
beginner99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 02:22 PM   #6
fuzzymath10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 464
Default

I do know that both my Greens (1.0 and 1.5TB EADS - from ~2009) make very little noise when active, then after a few seconds, they make an annoying buzz until they're used again, when the buzz goes away; I think this is related to a power saving feature. So, they're basically useless except when active or spun down. I recently got a 3TB Red, and it doesn't have this issue, nor do either of my 7200rpm Seagate drives (including a nearly 5-year old 7200.11) which only exhibit a low but unobtrusive hum probably from being 7200rpm.

I'm not sure if the new Greens eliminated this issue but I'm not willing to try them; I waited for a sale and got the 3TB red for $119 which I think is decent, and as low as I've seen the 3TB Green; I did get a 3TB Barracuda for $89 on Black Friday.
__________________
Antec NSK-1480: stock i5 2400 @ 1.04v, 4x4GB Mushkin Silverline, 160GB X25-M G2, Dell U2412M + U2211H
Lian-Li A04: stock Q8200 @ 0.98125v, 2x2GB Mushkin Silverline, 80GB X25-M G1, 1+1.5TB Caviar Green, 2x3TB Caviar Red, 1.5+2TB+3TB Barracuda, 1GB HD 5750 (passive), Sony BWU-100A BD-RE, all on Seasonic X460, hooked up to Sony 40" EX620 + KEF 2005.3 + Yamaha RX-V667
fuzzymath10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 04:39 PM   #7
Cerb
Elite Member
 
Cerb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,056
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by beginner99 View Post
it's also more expensive.
Yup. Green == AV < Blue < Black < RED < RE Green < RE. It's more expensive than a Blue, usually more than a Black, cheaper than a RE by a fair margin, but with a 3-yr warranty.

They know how to carve out their market niches, over at WDC.
__________________
"The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows." - Frank Zappa
Cerb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 05:34 PM   #8
GAO
Member
 
GAO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 68
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Does that mean that the WD Green drives do or do not park the head after 8 seconds causing higher number of on/off cycles in 27/7 NAS or Server operations?

I've seen conflicting information and I am confused.

Does or does not WD green have head parking ?

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=780
Yes they do, but it can be (painfully) disabled.
GAO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 08:36 PM   #9
birthdaymonkey
Golden Member
 
birthdaymonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,081
Default

My WD Green drives (currently down to two 2TB EARS) both have the head parking disabled via the wdidle3 utility, which requires a DOS bootdisk but otherwise isn't that annoying.

What was *really* annoying was the constant clicking of the drives as they parked their heads! Now they're virtually silent in my HTPC/server.
__________________
3770k@4.4 (NH-D14), P8Z77-V Pro, MSI GTX 760 Gaming, 8GB G.Skill 2133, 512GB 840 Pro, Seasonic X-660, Define XL R2, Realforce 87u 55g, G400, X-star DP2710, Audioengine D1, Sennheiser HD598
birthdaymonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 07:06 AM   #10
Mfusick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by birthdaymonkey View Post
My WD Green drives (currently down to two 2TB EARS) both have the head parking disabled via the wdidle3 utility, which requires a DOS bootdisk but otherwise isn't that annoying.

What was *really* annoying was the constant clicking of the drives as they parked their heads! Now they're virtually silent in my HTPC/server.
So disabling head parking actually made them stop clicking ?
Mfusick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 07:58 AM   #11
birthdaymonkey
Golden Member
 
birthdaymonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,081
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
So disabling head parking actually made them stop clicking ?
Yes it did.
__________________
3770k@4.4 (NH-D14), P8Z77-V Pro, MSI GTX 760 Gaming, 8GB G.Skill 2133, 512GB 840 Pro, Seasonic X-660, Define XL R2, Realforce 87u 55g, G400, X-star DP2710, Audioengine D1, Sennheiser HD598
birthdaymonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2013, 07:59 AM   #12
Mfusick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by beginner99 View Post
it's also more expensive.

Not very much and you get a longer warranty making it better value.
Mfusick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2013, 11:57 AM   #13
rsutoratosu
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,236
Default

All i know is all my greens went back for rma, 4 times in the last 2 month. Basically each drive failed 1-2 week after the other. and it is used in a 24/7 server operation.

5 2TB drive wd green ears rmaed, they send me back earx.

rsutoratosu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2013, 12:23 PM   #14
Piotrsama
Senior Member
 
Piotrsama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 289
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by birthdaymonkey View Post
My WD Green drives (currently down to two 2TB EARS) both have the head parking disabled via the wdidle3 utility, which requires a DOS bootdisk but otherwise isn't that annoying.

What was *really* annoying was the constant clicking of the drives as they parked their heads! Now they're virtually silent in my HTPC/server.
Question:
Even if you disable head parking.... when you turn off the PC, the heads gets parked, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsutoratosu View Post
All i know is all my greens went back for rma, 4 times in the last 2 month. Basically each drive failed 1-2 week after the other. and it is used in a 24/7 server operation.

5 2TB drive wd green ears rmaed, they send me back earx.

Are the EARX any better or they also failed?
Piotrsama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2013, 12:43 PM   #15
exdeath
Lifer
 
exdeath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,457
Default

Still messing with magnetic heads?
exdeath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2013, 01:23 PM   #16
birthdaymonkey
Golden Member
 
birthdaymonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,081
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsama View Post
Question:
Even if you disable head parking.... when you turn off the PC, the heads gets parked, right?

Are the EARX any better or they also failed?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the heads are parked when the drive is powered down, as they are in any hard drive.

With all these reports of EARS drives going down, I'm just waiting for my two 24/7 2TB EARS drives to fail. Hopefully they'll do so before the warranty expires!

EDIT: I just checked the warranty and they have until September 2014 to croak.
__________________
3770k@4.4 (NH-D14), P8Z77-V Pro, MSI GTX 760 Gaming, 8GB G.Skill 2133, 512GB 840 Pro, Seasonic X-660, Define XL R2, Realforce 87u 55g, G400, X-star DP2710, Audioengine D1, Sennheiser HD598

Last edited by birthdaymonkey; 02-27-2013 at 01:32 PM.
birthdaymonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2013, 03:21 PM   #17
Cerb
Elite Member
 
Cerb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,056
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsutoratosu View Post
All i know is all my greens went back for rma, 4 times in the last 2 month. Basically each drive failed 1-2 week after the other. and it is used in a 24/7 server operation.

5 2TB drive wd green ears rmaed, they send me back earx.

It happens. I, OTOH, have yet to see a Green fail. Small sample sizes are magical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsama View Post
Question:
Even if you disable head parking.... when you turn off the PC, the heads gets parked, right?
Yes. If power is cut to the armature, the head zooms off the platter, drawn by the permanent magnet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by exdeath View Post
Still messing with magnetic heads?
Still thinking everyone should have a $2k+ RAID array in their <$1k desktops and network-limited NAS boxes?
__________________
"The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows." - Frank Zappa
Cerb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2013, 02:36 AM   #18
BFG10K
Lifer
 
BFG10K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 20,407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbonium View Post
Cerb: so a Red is basically as good or better than a Green in EVERY way, including power consumption? Interesting.
Nope, the 1TB/platter Greens have much faster random access performance than the Reds (17ms vs 20-22ms).

Also this site measured better noise performance with the Greens: http://uk.hardware.info/reviews/3550...s-noise-levels
__________________
4790K | Titan | 16GB DDR3-1600 | Z97-K | 128GB Samsung 830 | 960GB Crucial M500 | 1TB VelociRaptor | X-Fi XtremeMusic | Seasonic X 560W | Fractal Arc R2 Midi | 30" HP LP3065
BFG10K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 10:04 AM   #19
Mfusick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsutoratosu View Post
All i know is all my greens went back for rma, 4 times in the last 2 month. Basically each drive failed 1-2 week after the other. and it is used in a 24/7 server operation.

5 2TB drive wd green ears rmaed, they send me back earx.




This sounds like me. Lol
Mfusick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 12:02 PM   #20
rsutoratosu
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsama View Post
Question:
Even if you disable head parking.... when you turn off the PC, the heads gets parked, right?



Are the EARX any better or they also failed?
not yet, most of the EARS failed after 1.9-2.1 years, so hopefully EARX are much better.
rsutoratosu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 12:15 PM   #21
Mfusick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 500
Default

Much of HDD life is luck. Green drives just appear to have generally low endurance.
Mfusick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 11:20 AM   #22
assassin24
HTPC Moderator
 
assassin24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Much of HDD life is luck. Green drives just appear to have generally low endurance.
I disagree.

I have multiple hard drives of all speeds and the Green drives that I use for storage are all still alive and well after multiple years. I have lost a few 7200RPM drives.

Doesn't mean that Green is good and Black is bad. You can't make an statistically significant conclusion unless your sample size is huge and using the exact same hard drive, platter size, firmware, other parts, etc.
assassin24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 12:21 PM   #23
sub.mesa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 611
Default

Quote:
You can't make an statistically significant conclusion unless [..]
Finally some words of wisdom!

The funny thing is that you guys are quarrelling over mostly firmware differences. Some might say: WD Green is bad because all that power saving crap is nonesense! While others might say that WD Reds are the only right choice for use with RAID arrays.

Of course, neither is true. Both are physically the same drives. WD just likes to annoy their customers by introducing two different products under the same product part number. Both Green and Red series come in different platter capacities. This leads to the Red getting better (lower) power consumption than the Green.

Some myths:
WD Green is not suitable for RAID (not suitable for low-quality RAID implementations, correct)
WD Green is not suitable for 24/7 (all drives are suitable for 24/7; all mechanical devices like nothing more than a static environment without any changes)
WD Green uses variable rpm called IntelliPower (no dude, it is static; dynamic rpm does not exist)
WD Green has high probability of failure (nonsense; it is physically the same as WD Red)
WD Green cannot be used in RAID arrays because it lacks TLER (only low-quality RAID implementations require TLER; 'proper' RAID likes WD Green just fine)
WD Green has that annoying headparking feature (true it is annoying; but 7200rpm drives also have it; it is not limited to green/5400rpm disks)
WD Green is slow (it is faster than many 7200rpm drives thanks to its high data density)
WD Green consumes even more power than WD Red (only if you do a false comparison between the 666GB platter version and 1000GB platter version)

As far as I know, the only differences between WD Green and WD Red:
- one year additional warranty (2 -> 3 years). Countries without warranty-protection by law will see an increase from 1 -> 3 years.
- Reds feature TLER=7 by default, while Greens have them locked at 120 seconds ('TLER disabled')
- Reds have headparking disabled while Greens require APM or wdidle to disable

Other than that, both drives are more than likely physically the same. Only the firmware and warranty is different. On the other hand, the 'RE' series more than likely is physically different, due to different specs on various mechanical components. Basically it is something between a consumer and enterprise drive with
sub.mesa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 12:56 PM   #24
spandexninja
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 40
Default

My WD Scorpio Blue (2.5" 1TB) parks every 8 seconds and WD wdidle3 doesn't support the Scorpio Blue

I have to turn the APM to maximum performance in CrystalDiskInfo to stop it from constantly parking.
spandexninja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 05:50 PM   #25
assassin24
HTPC Moderator
 
assassin24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sub.mesa View Post
Finally some words of wisdom!

The funny thing is that you guys are quarrelling over mostly firmware differences. Some might say: WD Green is bad because all that power saving crap is nonesense! While others might say that WD Reds are the only right choice for use with RAID arrays.

Of course, neither is true. Both are physically the same drives. WD just likes to annoy their customers by introducing two different products under the same product part number. Both Green and Red series come in different platter capacities. This leads to the Red getting better (lower) power consumption than the Green.

Some myths:
WD Green is not suitable for RAID (not suitable for low-quality RAID implementations, correct)
WD Green is not suitable for 24/7 (all drives are suitable for 24/7; all mechanical devices like nothing more than a static environment without any changes)
WD Green uses variable rpm called IntelliPower (no dude, it is static; dynamic rpm does not exist)
WD Green has high probability of failure (nonsense; it is physically the same as WD Red)
WD Green cannot be used in RAID arrays because it lacks TLER (only low-quality RAID implementations require TLER; 'proper' RAID likes WD Green just fine)
WD Green has that annoying headparking feature (true it is annoying; but 7200rpm drives also have it; it is not limited to green/5400rpm disks)
WD Green is slow (it is faster than many 7200rpm drives thanks to its high data density)
WD Green consumes even more power than WD Red (only if you do a false comparison between the 666GB platter version and 1000GB platter version)

As far as I know, the only differences between WD Green and WD Red:
- one year additional warranty (2 -> 3 years). Countries without warranty-protection by law will see an increase from 1 -> 3 years.
- Reds feature TLER=7 by default, while Greens have them locked at 120 seconds ('TLER disabled')
- Reds have headparking disabled while Greens require APM or wdidle to disable

Other than that, both drives are more than likely physically the same. Only the firmware and warranty is different. On the other hand, the 'RE' series more than likely is physically different, due to different specs on various mechanical components. Basically it is something between a consumer and enterprise drive with
Solid post.

Is there actually any evidence (meaning data) that the head parking is even a real issue in terms of reliability? Its an interesting theory and all but until there is data behind it I don't think we can really draw any conclusions. My personal experience tells me that for storage its likely not much of an issue.

Last edited by assassin24; 03-06-2013 at 05:54 PM.
assassin24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.