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Old 02-19-2013, 11:48 PM   #1
Retro Rob
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Default Doctrinal discussion from Catholic Church thread

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Originally Posted by DixyCrat View Post
The bible says nothing of the requirements for joining the roman catholic church; And the ONLY requirement for joining the Holy Catholic Church (which is every christian, no matter domination) is:

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Almost all of the founding members of Christianity considered themselves Jews and Jesus teaches that we are adopted into the family of Abraham and Issac.
So, ones actions have absolutely nothing to do with it?

Confessing "Jesus is lord" is all that's needed no matter what?

You have to realize that before you believe something in your heart, you have to be at least practicing your "faith" to the extent that it reaches you heart, or that "confession" means absolutely nothing. This includes living a morally upright life, including the rejection of homosexuality.

Personally and no offense to you, but a fundamentalist reading of the Bible and strict literal interpretation has done a huge disservice to the Bible and as heaped great reproach on the Book and is probably the one of the main reason people reject it. An example of the is the erroneous teaching that Jesus is God and that God sacrificed Himself, to himself, for himself, and resurrected himself. I can easily see why Atheist laugh at this.

Creationism is derived the exact same way. So no, I reject your stance that "believing" in your heart is all that is needed to become a Christian, because it's false, and undermines the entire Bible.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:28 AM   #2
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So, ones actions have absolutely nothing to do with it?

Confessing "Jesus is lord" is all that's needed no matter what?
The believe in your heart portion is important; but yes you do nothing to be saved but accept it.

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You have to realize that before you believe something in your heart, you have to be at least practicing your "faith"
This is entirely contrary to Christian doctrine (and my own experience in how God changes people). You start by accepting and confessing and in doing so God works in you; but you don't have to do anything. It is likely that various other-hurting self-serving lust and pride (this is the definition of sin) will fall away as you are turned more into christ and less into your sinful self.

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the erroneous teaching that Jesus is God and that God sacrificed Himself, to himself, for himself, and resurrected himself. I can easily see why Atheist laugh at this.
Laugh as you like sr. It is what the bible says and what Jesus says of himself in it, and I believe it.

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Creationism is derived the exact same way. So no, I reject your stance that "believing" in your heart is all that is needed to become a Christian, because it's false, and undermines the entire Bible.
The word Yom, or 'day' in the old testament can also mean "period of work" and day and night mean the beginning and end of said period. So young earth creationism is not needed from a literalist reading of the bible.

But I prefer to hang my hat on new testament creation:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understooda it."
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This includes living a morally upright life, including the rejection of homosexuality.
Christ brings a completion of the jewish law thus removing all of those old testament requirements. Finally, homosexuality is mentioned in the new testament as bringing punishment upon itself which I interpret to mean is physiologically bad for you (and without a condom or anti-biotics gay sex can have major negative health consequences); in other circumstances, mentions of 'homosexuality' is a translation of term that refers to the rape of children (and I would argue is translated homosexuality for political reasons).
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The fundamental ethos of Christianity is tolerance, turning the other cheek, caring for those in need, etc., but that is not what today's Christianity is about. We can say we're about loving our neighbor until we're blue in the face, but unless our actions start matching our words, it's meaningless.

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Old 02-20-2013, 12:40 AM   #3
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The believe in your heart portion is important; but yes you do nothing to be saved but accept it.
I think you're missing my point. Of course you believe it -- what I am saying is that you can't live an immoral life and then expect to be "saved" just by saying it.

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Laugh as you like sr. It is what the bible says and what Jesus says of himself in it, and I believe it.
I am not laughing,... I am no Atheist. But the thing is that they laugh at stuff like this because there is OVERWHELMING evidence that God is NOT Christ, and that Trinity isn't even found in the Bible. This is something folks made up by blatanly ignoring all scripture pointing to the contray. The evidence against this false teaching is enourmous.

Of course, if you read the NT you'll see that instead of taking, for instance, John 1:1 and running with it while ignoring everything else.

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The word Yom, or 'day' in the old testament can also mean "period of work" and day and night mean the beginning and end of said period. So young earth creationism is not needed from a literalist reading of the bible.
True, but creationists don't read it this way, which is absurb.

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Further, Christ brings a completion of the jewish law thus removing all of those old testament requirements. Finally, homosexuality is mentioned in the new testament as bringing punishment upon itself which I interpret to mean is physiologically bad for you (and without a condom or anti-biotics gay sex can have major negative health consequences); in other circumstances, mentions of 'homosexuality' is a translation of term that refers to the rape of children (and I would argue is translated homosexuality for political reasons).
Ok -- believe what you will. If you think that God doesn't condemn homosexuality (in the sense of same-sex relationships), you are probably ignoring scripture to gain political ground, or caving in to pressure.

Nothing new. Religion has a history of being blatanly wrong and willfully ignorant. They're saddled with guilt,.. and are compromising as a result because of the amount of blood they've shed.

Last edited by Retro Rob; 02-20-2013 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:41 AM   #4
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what I am saying is that you can't live an immoral life and then expect to be "saved" just by saying it.
'just by saying it' ? If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved; this is what the bible teaches and what I believe. This is the only salvation issue and understanding that salvation is by faith through grace and not by your own good works is the essential Christian doctrine.

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But the thing is that they laugh at stuff like this because there is OVERWHELMING evidence that God is NOT Christ, and that Trinity isn't even found in the Bible.
This conflates two issues. Christ as God and the Holy Spirit as the other two. Since you don't have to accept this doctrine inorder to confess that Jesus is Lord believe that he was resurrected by God, it is not a "salvation issue"; so I don't much worry about it except on academic grounds.

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you are probably ignoring scripture to gain political ground, or caving in to pressure.
I think attributing my disagreement with orthodox interpretations to being a 'sell out' while your disagreement is because of 'overwhelming evidence' is about as solipsistic as you can get. But, again, your position on homosexual sex is not a salvation issue.

I accept that your concept of 'overwhelming evidence' is as strong as mine; and we've come to contrary conclusions in these two circumstances: the difference is that I don't attribute maliciousness political maneuvering to your conclusions.

You are not the only thinking creature on earth and people can come to reasonable, intelligent, and contrary conclusions.
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The fundamental ethos of Christianity is tolerance, turning the other cheek, caring for those in need, etc., but that is not what today's Christianity is about. We can say we're about loving our neighbor until we're blue in the face, but unless our actions start matching our words, it's meaningless.

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Old 02-20-2013, 06:55 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by DixyCrat View Post
'just by saying it' ? If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved; this is what the bible teaches and what I believe. This is the only salvation issue and understanding that salvation is by faith through grace and not by your own good works is the essential Christian doctrine.
I understand that you can't *earn* it by your works - this much is clear and what I wasn't disputing. I think we're talking past each other, so I will clear myself up:

True, belief is essential, but say for instance that a reformed murderer comes to the Christ. While he does believe in his heart, and confesses that belief... if he continues his fomer way of life (murdering people) he has forfieted his salvation.

If this is what you're saying that salvation is somehow guaranteed (once saved always saved), you're grossly misrepresenting the Bible's definition of salvation. You do know that Satan was once "saved" and in the truth, and Jesus pointed that out that he didn't stay in the truth - John 8:44. And I am sure we all know what's going to happen to him. Satan isn't "once saved always saved" by any means because of his "works".

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This conflates two issues. Christ as God and the Holy Spirit as the other two. Since you don't have to accept this doctrine inorder to confess that Jesus is Lord believe that he was resurrected by God, it is not a "salvation issue"; so I don't much worry about it except on academic grounds.
This doesn't conflate the two issues; it exposes your interpretation as flat out wrong, to be honest, and condems the myth that God is some "triune" God -- and that God came down in human form. Again, this is a fundamental "taking every single thing at face value" without reading surrounding text and ignoring context and, as a result, stubbornly sticking to your meaning.

Because of this, many people believe that God is Jesus, and that at the same time, he isn't Jesus. This is unintelligent and dishonest becasue he either is, or he isn't.. then you have a copout by saying that it isn't necessary to accept the teaching. I fear you say that because "God is a mystery, the trinity is a mystery". I have talked to many Trinitarians in my lifetime and they've yet to offer any sort of coherent Biblical reason as why the believe what they believe.

The point is, you're ignoring the many, many scriptures that confuses your argument and instead of admitting you could be wrong (which I think you are) you act as if both can be taught side-by-side. That further confuses people and make the Bible even more contradictory that what people already believe.

Sorry, but I get personally upset reading about garbage teachings like the Trinity which has no Biblical support, and has been formed based on one backward reading and deliberate fabrication of John 1:1.

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I think attributing my disagreement with orthodox interpretations to being a 'sell out' while your disagreement is because of 'overwhelming evidence' is about as solipsistic as you can get. But, again, your position on homosexual sex is not a salvation issue.
No, it's not about my opinion being right.. it's about the mountains of evidence that you and people like yourself ignore. This reminds me of the time Gallileo proposed the Sun didn't move, but the Earth did and how the Churches viewed him as a heretic and probably wanted him dead. No, the Bible never taught that the Earth was the center of the universe, this was a teaching of religion.

Everything you can't explain seems to be a "non-salvation" issue.

Quote:
I accept that your concept of 'overwhelming evidence' is as strong as mine; and we've come to contrary conclusions in these two circumstances: the difference is that I don't attribute maliciousness political maneuvering to your conclusions.
You have no evidence. All you have is John 1:1. Read down to verse 18. Read John 4:34, or when Jesus died and the Roman soldier, after the quake, sad: "this really was God's Son". Or when he died and yelled "father, father, why have you forsaken me?!?".

The evidence is clear.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:26 AM   #6
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Everything you can't explain seems to be a "non-salvation" issue.
If you want to get in an argument about the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity, start a thread on that(if that is allowed), be ready to get into the Koine Greek. I just prefer not derail this one now that the ability of someone to be a Christian and a homosexual has been established.

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The Pope at the time told his friend Galileo that he knew he was right, as I hear it, but that for political reasons there was no way he could allow Galileo to promote his ideas.
Actually, far from bring obviously right: Galileo was demonstrably wrong. The Catholic Church of the time was well informed and highly logical, they had good empirical reasons for disagreeing with the earth-movement hypothesis: namely, that the predictions of a moving earth did not bear out! As, if the earth moved around the sun we should see a parallax effect when we look at the stars. Galileo agreed that this was a problem with his theory and had to argue that the stars are ridiculously far away from us; a convenient, absurd, argument that turned out to be true (but not one that was by any means obvious at the time).
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The fundamental ethos of Christianity is tolerance, turning the other cheek, caring for those in need, etc., but that is not what today's Christianity is about. We can say we're about loving our neighbor until we're blue in the face, but unless our actions start matching our words, it's meaningless.

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Old 02-20-2013, 09:20 AM   #7
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Actually, far from bring obviously right: Galileo was demonstrably wrong. The Catholic Church of the time was well informed and highly logical, they had good empirical reasons for disagreeing with the earth-movement hypothesis: namely, that the predictions of a moving earth did not bear out! As, if the earth moved around the sun we should see a parallax effect when we look at the stars. Galileo agreed that this was a problem with his theory and had to argue that the stars are ridiculously far away from us; a convenient, absurd, argument that turned out to be true (but not one that was by any means obvious at the time).
Copernicus placed the Sun in the center instead of the Earth and then Galileo went on to support it. A small mistake was that he placed the sun in the center of the universe though. The Pope wasn't happy that Galileo published a book that defended Copernicus and he was ordered to stand trial for heresy. The Church refused to accept it since he couldn't prove how far away the stars were and he was sentenced to house arrest.

Regardless of what you think, Copernicus and Galileo proved that the geocentric model was wrong. The old model claimed that the Earth was the center of the universe and everything would come towards us. However they could see the moon and they knew it wasn't coming to earth. They could see Jupiter and 4 of the biggest moons as well. What the Church did was plain stupid and stubborn. It wasn't until 1757 that they gave in after Newton published his works. I figure that by the year 2300 the Church should be ready to accept evolution.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:02 AM   #8
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Copernicus placed the Sun in the center instead of the Earth and then Galileo went on to support it. A small mistake was that he placed the sun in the center of the universe though. The Pope wasn't happy that Galileo published a book that defended Copernicus and he was ordered to stand trial for heresy. The Church refused to accept it since he couldn't prove how far away the stars were and he was sentenced to house arrest.

Regardless of what you think, Copernicus and Galileo proved that the geocentric model was wrong. The old model claimed that the Earth was the center of the universe and everything would come towards us. However they could see the moon and they knew it wasn't coming to earth. They could see Jupiter and 4 of the biggest moons as well. What the Church did was plain stupid and stubborn. It wasn't until 1757 that they gave in after Newton published his works. I figure that by the year 2300 the Church should be ready to accept evolution.
The Ptolemaic model (the one which places Earth at the center of things) is actually mathematically correct and therefore cannot be proven wrong. It has simply been discarded because another mathematically correct model (the Copernican model) is simpler. In the end there are infinitely many models that can explain any observable phenomenon so we rely on parsimony (i.e. we choose the simplest) to select one that is "right." It's important to remember that this selection is arbitrary and philosophical in nature rather than being scientific.

That said, it's absurd to label someone a heretic for championing a model of anything.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:15 AM   #9
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The Ptolemaic model (the one which places Earth at the center of things) is actually mathematically correct and therefore cannot be proven wrong. It has simply been discarded because another mathematically correct model (the Copernican model) is simpler. In the end there are infinitely many models that can explain any observable phenomenon so we rely on parsimony (i.e. we choose the simplest) to select one that is "right." It's important to remember that this selection is arbitrary and philosophical in nature rather than being scientific.

That said, it's absurd to label someone a heretic for championing a model of anything.
That model failed once they showed that Venus showed phases just like the moon.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:42 PM   #10
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That model failed once they showed that Venus showed phases just like the moon.
I think you missed the point. The Ptolemaic model can be adapted to account for all such things just as a model centered around Jupiter, Pluto, a random asteroid, or an arbitrary point in space.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:09 PM   #11
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The story of Galileo's situation with the church:

http://catholiceducation.org/article...ce/sc0021.html
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:01 PM   #12
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They maintained that Earth was the center of the universe in a time when we were landing men on the moon.
Well, that's not accurate.

They've largely accepted science as I understand it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:56 AM   #13
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I am not laughing,... I am no Atheist. But the thing is that they laugh at stuff like this because there is OVERWHELMING evidence that God is NOT Christ, and that Trinity isn't even found in the Bible. This is something folks made up by blatanly ignoring all scripture pointing to the contray. The evidence against this false teaching is enourmous.
You say the evidence against is enormouse....links or proof??
So where is your enormous evidence against the TRINITY??


Some people who do reject the Trinity doctrine often claim that the word "Trinity" is not found in Scripture. Of course, there is no verse that says "God is three Persons" or "God is a Trinity." This is all quite evident and true, strictly speaking, but it proves nothing. There are many words and phrases that Christians use, which are not found in the Bible. For example, the word "Bible" is not found in the Bible.

More to the point, opponents of the Trinity doctrine claim that a Trinitarian view of God’s nature and being can’t be proven from the Bible. Since the books of the Bible are not written as theological tracts, this may seem on the surface to be true. There is no statement in Scripture that says, "God is three Persons in one being, and here is the proof. . ."

However, the New Testament does bring God (Father), the Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit together in such a way as to strongly imply the Trinitarian nature of God. Three Scriptures are quoted below as a summary of the many other biblical passages that bring together the three Persons of the Godhead. One Scripture is from the Gospels, another is from the apostle Paul and a third is from the apostle Peter. The words in each passage referring to each of the three Persons are italicized to emphasize their Trinitarian implication:

•All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].
•May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].
•To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].

Here are three passages in Scripture, one on the lips of Jesus, and the other two from leading apostles, each bringing together the three Persons of the Godhead in an unmistakable way. But these are only a sampling of other similar passages. Among others are the following: Romans 14:17-18; 15:16;1 Corinthians 2:2-5; 6:11; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:6-8; 1Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-6. The reader is encouraged to read each of these passages and note how God (Father), Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit are brought together as instruments of our salvation.

Certainly, such passages show that the New Testament faith is implicitly Trinitarian. Of course, it’s true that none of these passages say directly that "God is a Trinity. . ." or "This is the Trinitarian doctrine. . ." But they don’t need to. As mentioned above, the books of the New Testament are not formal, point by point treatises of doctrine. Nonetheless, these and other Scriptures speak easily and without any self-consciousness of God (Father), Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit working together. The writers show no feeling of strangeness in joining these divine Persons together as a unity in their salvific work. Systematic theologian Alister E. McGrath makes this point in his book Christian Theology:


The foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity are to be found in the pervasive pattern of divine activity to which the New Testament bears witness. . .There is the closest of connections between the Father, Son, and Spirit in the New Testament writings. Time after time, New Testament passages link together these three elements as part of a greater whole. The totality of God’s saving presence and power can only, it would seem, be expressed by involving all three elements...[page 248].

Such New Testament Scriptures answer the charge that the Trinity doctrine was only developed well into the church age and that it reflects "pagan" ideas, and not biblical ones. If we look at Scripture with an open mind regarding what it says about the being we call God, it’s clear that he is shown to be Triune in nature.

We can confidently say that the Trinity, as a truth regarding God’s essential being, has always been a reality. Perhaps it was not completely clear in the dim ages of man, including even in the Old Testament. But the Incarnation of the Son of God and the coming of the Holy Spirit revealed that God was Triune. This revelation was made in concrete fact, in that the Son and the Holy Spirit broke into our world at definite points in history. The fact of the Triune revelation of God in historical time was only later described in the word of God we call the New Testament.

James R. White, a Christian apologist, says in his book The Forgotten Trinity: "The Trinity is a doctrine not revealed merely in words but instead in the very action of the Triune God in redemption itself! We know who God is by what He has done in bringing us to himself!"

http://www.gci.org/God/3Bible

**************************************************

From the Second Century to our present age many people have found the biblical doctrine of the Trinity hard to understand. The doctrine of the Trinity recognizes the God in one God, co-existing in three distinct Persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In our material existence the concept that God is One God, yet He exists as three distinct persons is foreign to us. However, the doctrine of the Godhead (Trinity) is without questions revealed in God's word.

The biblical term is "Godhead" (theiotes) and it is used three times in Scripture, Act 17:29; Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9. The word "Trinity" is not found in Scripture, which is a theological word Christians use to refer to the Godhead.

· "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." (Acts 17:29)

· "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20)

· "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9)

The doctrine states that the Godhead, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit consist of three distinct Persons, yet these three are one God. There are many arguments espoused by those that deny the Trinity, but the most prevalent is how God can be One God and at the same time be three Persons?

In Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus gave His disciples the Great Commission stating they were to teach and baptize in the names of the Godhead, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Jesus

Further 1 John 5:7 states "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."[1] That God did not inspire the writers of Scripture to use the modern word "Trinity" does not mean it is not a biblical truth. Some who object to the doctrine of the Trinity respond noting the Bible does not use the word “Trinity.” However, there are many words and phrases that Christians use to express a biblical doctrine that are not found in the Bible. One is the word "Rapture." The word is not found in Scripture, by the phrase “shall be caught up” harpagēsometha” is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and means to “catch away” or Latin “rapiēmur”meaning to be snatched away. In fact the word "Bible" is also not found in the Scriptures. Would we dismiss the existence of the Bible because the word is not found in Scripture.[2]

Those that deny the Trinity are denying the Godhead. They rationalize that it is physically impossible for three distinct persons to be only one. They are both right and wrong and this is what this article will address. They are right in the sense that it is impossible for us to explain, or this can be a reality in our physical/material world. But they are wrong in denying that God is a Triune God. The approach of this paper will be first to authenticate the biblical doctrine by presenting biblical statements attesting to this truth. Those that believe this doctrine do so because the Bible clearly teaches monotheism, meaning that God is One God. Yet, the Scriptures unmistakably refer to the plurality of God as existing in Three Persons. Secondly, this paper will present a practical explanation of the doctrine in human terms.

Overwhelmingly the Bible teaches the Trinitarian concept of one God existing as three persons. The Bible does not teach polytheism which says that there are three separate Gods called the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nor does the Bible say God is one person who took three forms or that the God the Father became the Son, who then became the Holy Spirit as taught by some false churches. The Bible does not teach that God is only one person and that Jesus is not God, but only God's procreated son.[3] The Bible specifically states that God is Spirit and was never a man. (See Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29 ) The Bible further plainly states that Jesus Christ, being God, is eternal as is the Father. (See John 1:1-2, 8:58, 10:30, Rev. 1:8, 11, 21:6, 22:13)

How Does the Bible Teach the Doctrine of the Trinity?

The following chart shows some of the many passages in the Bible from which the doctrine of the Trinity is derived. Note that God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all called God and all have the same attributes, which are attributes that only God has.

THE TRIUNE GODHEAD PRESENTED IN SCRIPTURE

FATHER
SON
HOLY SPIRIT

Called God
Phil. 1:2
John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9
Acts 5:3-4

Creator
Isa. 64:8; 44:24
John 1:3
Col. 1:15-17

Resurrects
1 Thess. 1:10
John 2:19, 10:17
Rom. 8:11

Indwells
2 Cor. 6:16
Col. 1:27
John 14:17

Everywhere
1 Kings 8:27
Matt. 28:20
1 Kings 8:27 Psa. 139:7-10

All knowing
1 John 3:20
John 16:30; 21:17
1 Cor. 2:10-11

Sanctifies
1 Thess. 5:23
Heb. 2:11
1 Pet. 1:2

Life giver
Gen. 2:7: John 5;21
John 1:3; 5:21
2 Cor. 3:6,8

Fellowship
1 John 1:3
1 Cor. 1:9
2 Cor. 13:14; Phil. 2:1

Eternal
Psa. 90:2
Micah 5:1-2
Rom. 8:11; Heb. 9:14

A Will
Luke 22:42
Luke 22:42
1 Cor. 12:11

Speaks
Matt. 3:17; Luke 9:25
Luke 5:20; 7:48
Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2

Love
John 3:16
Eph. 5: 25
Rom. 15:30

Searches the heart
Jer. 17:10
Rev. 2:23
1 Cor. 2:10

We belong to
John 17:9
John 17:6

Savior
1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; 4:10
2 Tim. 1:10; Tit. 1:4; 3:6

We serve
Matt. 4:10
Col. 3:24

Believe in
John 14:1
John 14:1

Gives joy
John 15:11
Rom. 14:7

Judges
John 8:50
John 5:21,30




Passages in the Old Testament that Teach Plurality in the Oneness of God.

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Deuteronomy 6:4

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD"

The Bible, in this verse, emphatically states there is only one God.[4] "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark 12:29) Literally the verse says, "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is a united Jehovah." The Bible is the inerrant inspired Word of God and this statement can only be understood that God is telling us He is One God. (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:21).

The Hebrew word for one is Echad and "stresses unity while recognizing diversity with that oneness."[5] This same word is used in Genesis 2:24, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one (Echad) flesh." Therefore God says that two individuals, Adam and Eve, were one flesh. In Exodus 24:3, states " . . . All the people answered with one (Echad) voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do." Note that all the people, which were a great multitude replied with one voice. There are many other instances where the word is used to show the oneness of many individuals. In other words the Hebrew word Echad allows for plurality within oneness, allowing that God, who is emphatically described as one God, to be three Persons who are One God.

There is another Hebrew word that means "one" which is "Yahad." This word is always singular and can only mean one and its use allows no plurality. God could have used this word in Deuteronomy 6:4, but chose Echad instead which allows the concept of God being One God who is in essence is three individual Persons. Thiessen says, "A unity is, however, not inconsistent with the conception of the trinity; for a unity is not the same as a unit.”[6]

This concept can be further seen in the descriptions of the Person of God in the Old Testament:

· The Person of God no one is allowed to see. "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live" (Ex. 33:20).

· The Person of God we can see. "And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day" (Genesis 18:1, See 2-33). (This is a preincarnate appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ)

· The Person of God that cannot be seen. "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Gen. 1:2). (The Holy Spirit is in essence a spirit and cannot be seen by physical beings)

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Genesis 1:1

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

The Old Testament begins by teaching that God is One in three Persons. In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew name for God is "Elohim" which is used more than two thousand times in the plural form in the Bible.[7] Further the name "Elohim" occurs only in Hebrew and in no other Semitic language. [8] This is a plural noun, but the verb is singular. This is not a normal use of grammar. Normally a plural noun would have a plural verb. But if you wanted to teach that God is one and also a plurality, using the unique grammatical construction of using of a plural noun with a singular verb would be used. Therefore this passage teaches that there is one God who exists in a plurality.

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Genesis 1:26

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness . . . "

Again in Genesis 1:26, God is spoken of as plural. "And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . " The same word for “one” is used in Genesis 2:24, speaking of the oneness of a husband and wife. God sees a husband and wife spiritually as being one. This another verse that helps to establish that two or more can spiritually be one.

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Genesis 11:7-8

"Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city."

Genesis 11:7-8 says the LORD scattered the antediluvians abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. God is spoken of in the plural (let "us" go down) and in the singular (Jehovah = " the existing One") at the same time. This passage summarizes the Bible's teaching about God that He is one, but exists in a plurality of three Persons.

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Psalm 45:6-7

"Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

According to Hebrews 1:8-9, God the Father is speaking in Psalm 45, and He is referring to the Son as God. "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows "(Heb. 1:8-9).

The question is if the Son Himself was God, why did He address the Father as God? The answer is that the Son addressed the Father as God for the same reason that the Father addressed the Son as God, because they are both God!

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Isaiah 48:16-17

"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go."

God the Father in this verse states He is the "Lord GOD; I am the Lord thy God." He then unmistakably further says He is thy "Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 44:24 proclaims the Redeemer made Israel and the heavens, "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Both these verses refer to the promised Messiah who is Jesus and God is saying Him Jesus is the Redeemer. The LORD(Jehovah) states that He is the Creator. Therefore the Bible is saying that it is Jehovah God, who is the Father, who is the Creator and at the same time that the Bible is stating that Jesus Christ is the Creator. (See John 1:3-4, Eph. 3:9, Col. 1: 16)

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Jeremiah 23:5-6

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

The verse identifies the person speaking as being "the Lord" (Jehovah) and Jehovah is talking about another person who will in the future come to earth who is David's descendent, a King who will reign, prosper and will judge the earth. Jehovah then gives His name as "JEHVOAH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is a reference to the promised Messiah will be a man and a descendant of David. God the Father identifies Himself in the Old Testament at "Jehovah" and here He says the Messiah's name is also called "Jehovah" which is the sacred name of God. It would be blasphemy to call any man "Jehovah" yet, this is plainly the name by which the Messiah would be called. There can be no mistake that God the Father is saying the Messiah Jesus is God.

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Isaiah 9:6

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

This is another prophecy foretelling the birth of the Messiah. Note that the Messiah is called "The mighty God, The everlasting Father." There can be no doubt that this passage is saying a human child would be born who is identified as God and the Father. Why would God the Father state that the Messiah, a man, is God and the Father if He was not? Proverbs 30:4-5 states God's word are pure, "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him." God is saying His words are pure and that He is the Creator and He has a Son. Clearly this passage is saying that Jesus Christ (Christ = Messiah) is God incarnate in man.

NEW TESTAMENT PASSAGES THAT TEACH THE TRINITY

The New Testament clearly says the Trinity that Jesus is God (John 1:1,14); it says the Father is God (Phil. 1:2); and it says the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Since the Son speaks to the Father, they are separate persons (John 17). Since the Holy Spirit speaks also (Acts 13:2), He too is a separate person. There can be no question that the New Testament proclaims there is only One God and that He exists in three distinct persons.

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John 1:1, 14

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . .And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."

The verse plainly says that the "Word" (Logos) was God. John 1:14-15 unmistakably proclaims that the "Word" was made flesh that it establishes the incarnation of God. God can to earth as a man. The passage unquestionably identifies Jesus Christ as the Word, who was God and stating the John the Baptist bare witness of Him.

John 1:3 says that it was Jesus Christ, the Word (Logos) who created all things. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3) However, Genesis 1:1 states that "In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth." This passage without a doubt establishes the deity of Jesus Christ that He is God and that He created all things. Speaking of Christ Colossians 1:16 states, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." Further Colossians 1:17 adds "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (See Heb. 1:3,10)

God plainly states in Exodus 34:14 that man is not to worship any other God. "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Colossians 1:18 states that Jesus is to have the preeminence in all things. "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Col. 1:18). Further Jesus was worshiped many times while on earth. (See Matt. 2:11; 18:26,29; Mark 3:11; 5:33; Luke 5:8; 8:23,28,41; 17:16; John 11:32; Rev. 5:8,14; 19:4; 22:8.) Jesus accepted the worship of men because He is God.

Obviously, there is a pattern presented by these Scriptures that God the Father is emphatically said to have created the heavens and the earth and at the same time Jesus is proclaimed to be the Creator. In Genesis 1:2, the Holy Spirit is shown as "moving upon the face of the waters." (Also see Psalms 104:30) The only way these statements can be true is that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one God.

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John 8:58

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

John 8:58 ended Jesus' confrontational discourse with the religious Jews and proclaimed that He was "I am" which is a name that only applies to God the Father. The Jews then rioted and took up stones to kill Jesus, but He eluded them and passed through the midst of them unharmed. What caused them to riot was that Jesus said plainly that He was Jehovah God, the "Self-Existent One." (Exodus 3:14) Using the name "I am" He identified Himself as the One who sent Moses to the Children of Israel when they were in captivity in Egypt. The Jews fully understood what He had said and were so angry with Him making the statement that they rushed to kill Him. There can be no mistake that Jesus stated He was Jehovah God which certainly confirms the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

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John 10:30

"I and my Father are one."

In John 10:30, Jesus said that "I and my Father are one." The word “One” is in the neuter gender. This statement rules out the meaning that they are only one in purpose as some misinterpret this verse to say. It affirms that Jesus and God are separate persons, but one God, with the Holy Spirit. The verse says they are in perfect unity in their natures and actions. Jesus emphatically stated on this occasion that He was God. The Jews who heard Him saw a man standing before them and they fully understood what He had just stated. They were so offended at His statement that they took up stones to put Him to death, "because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:32). These Jews fully understood that God presents Himself in the Old Testament as monotheistic which in their minds precluded that Jesus could be God also.[9] Here again the Bible unmistakably is telling us from Christ's own words that God the Father and Jesus Christ are One.

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Matthew 1:23

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

The angel announced to Joseph that Mary was with child and the Son she would give birth to would be called "Emmanuel" meaning God with us. Matthew clearly claimed not only that Christ was born of a virgin, but that this was anticipated by the prophecy of Isaiah as being the method by which God would become a man.[10]

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1 Timothy 3:16

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

This passage begins with "without controversy" as if anticipating those who would deny the Trinity. It then soundly affirms the doctrine. The phrase "without controversy" means simply "obviously" or "beyond all question." The next statement "The mystery of Godliness is great" denotes the importance and magnitude of this now revealed mystery or truth that was not revealed in the Old Testament. A mystery in the Bible is simply a previously unrevealed truth. In other words in the Old Testament this truth was not stated.

The mystery is that "God is manifest in the flesh!" This is as straightforward a statement as can be made on the matter. This verse says that God is manifested in the flesh or God is incarnate in flesh. The Greek word is "phneroo" meaning, "to make visible." (See John 1:1-14, 14:7, Col. 1:15, 1 Tim. 1:17) Jesus was "justified in the Spirit" proclaiming that it was not the flesh that justified, but the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was thus vindicated in the Spirit at His resurrection. Some believe this means Jesus was "seen of angels" but the word is "angelos" which means a messenger. Contextually it is referring to the Apostles who saw the Lord in the flesh and preached the Gospel to the Gentiles. Jesus was "preached among the Gentiles" refers to the scope of His ministry that He came to save all nations, not just the Jews. He was more than the Jewish Messiah, but the Savior of the world. Jesus was "believed on in the world" being proven to be the Redeemer and is believed on and accepted as Savior by those who seek after God. He was when His ministry and work "received up into glory." Today Christ is at the right hand of God, making intercession for those who by faith are trusting in Him.

There can be no mistake that this verse reveals that Jesus Christ is God and attests to the fact that Jesus and God are One.

SUMMARY

The verses presented and many others clearly teach that God is One God. These passages state that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are also God. Thus the Bible affirms one of the most important doctrines in Scripture that God one God existing in a unity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The full importance of understanding and accepting this truth is found in the Epistle of 1 John:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1 John 4:1-3).

It must be noted that the phrase "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" is a direct reference to His deity and that GOD came to the earth in flesh. All men are "born in the flesh" therefore this verse has no significance unless it is referring to God coming in the flesh. John says those that deny this revealed truth of the Trinity are not of God and the denial of this doctrine comes from the spirit of the antichrist who is directed by Satan.

The biblical doctrine of the Trinity was not invented by man or any church. Its origin is in the plain and unmistaken statements made in the Bible that is God's word. It is revealed truth and salvation, and seek God must accept who He is and what is His revealed nature.

How Can We Understand that God is One God Existing in Three Distinct Persons?

How can we understand that God can be One God, yet be three distinct persons? The answer is really quite simple and easy to understand if we accept that the Bible is the very word of God and what we are reading is God's revelation to man about Himself. Thiessen states, "His (God) being is simple; man's is compound, having both a material and an immaterial part. But God is spirit and is not susceptible of such division." [11]

Is it reasonable for us to demand that we understand perfectly everything about our Magnificent and Almighty God? Do we understand fully everything we believe and know to be true? We do fully understand our own selves or most things in the world in which we live? How can we expect fully to understand the eternal, wholly spiritual, Almighty God?

The answer is “No.” Man knows very little about the world in which is exists. 2 Timothy 2:23 rightly warns us to avoid foolish and unlearned questions.[12] A foolish question is one that is used to attempt to overthrow a plain Bible teaching, such as questions about the Trinity, or the resurrection, or the incarnation of Christ, or the condition of man after death.

The false teacher asks foolish questions which causes people to doubt the Word of God. The true teacher encourages people to believe the Word of God despite whether its teachings seem perfectly reasonable to human understanding or not.[13] The problem is not with what the Bible reveals, but with man's unwillingness to accept and understand what God has stated as fact.

The following illustration is not a perfect example, but helps illustrate a point. We all believe in gravity but we cannot explain it. Our inability to explain or even understand what gravity is does not mean there is no gravity. It exists and we can see what it does. We cannot see it or touch it or in any way explain what it is. (See John 3:8) Gravity is the most important force in the universe and affects everything in it. The physicist tells us even the smallest particle of subatomic matter are held in place by the force of gravity, yet no one knows what gravity is or what makes it work.

Wouldn’t it be reasonable and logical to accept that although we do not understand with human reasoning how it is possible that God is three Persons and One God? If we deny the possibility of the Trinity then we must also declare that we are omniscient which means our knowledge is infinite and absolute. Do we know everything there is to know about everything? Do we even under everything about our physical world. How then can we honestly proclaim we know everything in the realm of the spiritual world that God exists. When we consider, as this paper shows, that the Bible that is God’s own word on the matter, plainly establishes Trinity, how can we set ourselves up as judges of God’s word and declare that God is not a Trinity?

Do we deny the existence of gravity, atoms, electrons, protons, and the atomic particles of the Universe because we do not know how they exist or can explain them? We accept it by faith because scientists, who we trust, tell us they exist and we accept their statements. They reveal to us the existence of atomic and subatomic particles that we cannot see. Do we call the scientists, who have knowledge of these things, liars because we cannot understand or see what they reveal to us? In a similar way we accept the truth of the Trinity, although not being able to fully understand it or explain it, because God, who certainly knows who He is, has revealed it to us in His written word.

Why then is it so hard for some men to accept the biblical truth of the Trinity? The key to this misunderstanding lays in man’s microfying our infinite Creator. In other words, making Him finite like ourselves. This act demeans and debases our omnipotent and glorious God and brings Him down to the level of man. God is not man and the immensity of His being is so far beyond our finite understand we cannot even begin comprehend who He is truly. However, He has revealed to us through His word the Bible, all we need to know about Him and thereby to fully believe and trust in Him.[14]

John 3:19 says, "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." The verse says that "light" referring to God's revealed truth of Jesus Christ the Savior, has been given to us by God, but because of their sin man refuses to accept it.

We must understand that man lives in a material universe and is subject to physical limitations of this world and to time and space. However, God exists in a spiritual world outside our universe that is not material nor subject to time and space. God says He is Spirit (John 4:24), which is simply revealed truth from God about Himself. God does not explain what a Spirit is because we cannot understand it. There is nothing in our material world to compare with the spiritual realm of God. But we do know that it is different from the material universe that we live in, and that God's essence as spirit is difference than us.

In our physical world we can only describe something by using words, terms or things that are familiar to us. If I try to tell someone what a house is I have the advantage of that person having seen other houses. Therefore they understand what the word "house" is generally referring too. Yet, when we try to describe God as a Spirit or the Trinity we have no such advantage. There is nothing in our material world with which we can compare a Spirit or the spiritual realm that God exists in. God exists outside the universe and in a spiritual dimension beyond our human ability to perceive. The physical laws of our universe do not apply. Our world is material not spiritual and therefore the concept is foreign to us. This is why God does not attempt to explain the Trinity to us in His word. We cannot understand it because we are material beings and only know material things. Yet, the doctrine is true because God has revealed it to us as fact in His word. The Bible teaches that God is one God existing in three distinct persons, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Those who believe and trust God, believe this doctrine because it is revealed truth from God who cannot lie.

The Bible also reveals that God is eternal, yet some of the same people who deny the Trinity, will accept that God is eternal and infinite. Yet, the idea that God is an eternal God is just as foreign to our understanding as the Trinity. In our world nothing is eternal and everything had a beginning and will have an end, but not so with God who is not subject to time and exists in a realm in which there is no time. Psalm 90:2, states, "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." The term "everlasting to everlasting" means that God is infinite in time having no beginning or end. This is another revealed truth that we cannot comprehend. Man is as a material being is limited by time and space. Being limited by time, we cannot conceive of an infinite God that exists outside time. This universe, and that means you and I had a physical beginning and we will have a physical end. Yet, says He is eternal having not beginning or ending. God reveals Himself in His word saying "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev. 22:13).

Many who deny the doctrine of the Trinity also deny other clear teachings of the Bible such as the deity of Jesus Christ, salvation by grace apart from works, the miracles, the prophecies, and a host of other cardinal doctrines God has revealed to us. These truths are the supernatural works of God. Man is not able mentally to perceive of God's unity, spirituality, independence, immutability, eternity, and immensity. Drawing from man's limited material existence and prejudice, those that deny these carnal doctrines conclude that these things are impossible in a material world and therefore illogically proclaim they do not exist. Humanly speaking the supernatural acts of God are impossible for mortals in a material universe to understand. What so many fail to understand is that God is a supernatural Being. He is not limited to the restrictions of a material universe. God is Spirit and thus a supernatural Being that exists outside the universe. He, from the realm of His spiritual dimension called Heaven, drawing from His infinite power, created our material universe "exhilo" which means out of nothing. Being supernatural, which means being beyond material limitations, God simply spoke the universe into being. That too is a reality we cannot comprehend. In our material world it is impossible to create something out of absolute nothing. Yet, with God all things are possible.[15]

No one can mistake that the Bible is a supernatural Book which reveals the supernatural works of God in creating and working with man through the ages. The Bible presents mankind with God's ultimate and supernatural plan, that man by simple faith in Jesus Christ the Savior, can have forgiveness for sins and eternal life and receive the spiritual nature of God. Those who believe and receive Jesus Christ as their Savior become a part of Heaven with is a spiritual place and the children of God.

True Christians should not be frustrated because the world does not understand the clear teachings of the Bible. It is the ministry of God, the Holy Spirit, to reveal truth, but one cannot understand spiritual things until they are spiritually reborn. The beginning of wisdom says God is a fear of God. (See Prov. 9:10) That means accepting that He is and who He is and humbling oneself to Him as one's maker.

The unbeliever by his unbelief rejects God does not submit himself to God. He cannot understand the things of God because he does not have the capacity to do so. He has not truly accepted God and he is bound to his earthy and carnal understanding because he has not received the new nature of God and thereby become a "new man" in Christ Jesus. (See Eph. 4:24, Col. 3:10)

God explains this in 1 Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."



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Conclusion

The carnal man has a false idea of God because he tries to liken God to being like himself and his material world. This limits one from an understanding the reality of who God is. Further man, instead of believing in our infinite Creator, invents degraded gods that are like himself. (See Isa. 44:9-18, Rom. 1:20-23) The mark of a cult and false religion is that they all have gods who are made in man's image and are limited in power and existence to material limitations.

That is what Romans 1:23 says: "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." (Underline added)

The false gods that men invent are always patterned after man himself or things he sees in nature. Some false religions go as far as to teaching that God was a man or that men can become gods. In other words they deify man. Deify means to make something a god and worship it. God says He created man . . . and it is foolishness to suggest that man created God. Yet, this is plainly what is done when Almighty God is said to be a man or that a finite man could become God. The perfect example of this absurd idea in found in Mormonism. How could a man, born into the universe that existed before he did, be the creator of himself and the universe? God as Genesis 1 and 2 state created all things. Man was created on the sixth day of the Creation week and was very last act of creation. It was God created man. Everything was created before man, how then could a man have created the universe?

Most of mankind has no real idea of who God really is. The gods of unbelieving men are small and do not take into account the immensity of Almighty God as He is presented in the Bible. J.B. Phillips wrote a book in 1952 called, “Your God Is Too Small.” He exposed the misconceptions that many have about God in that their understanding of God superimposed upon Him human characteristics.[16] In His greatness and power the Bible says He spoke the universe into existence. God states this truth saying “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. “ (Hebrews 11:3)

Believing that God is a man or any material being shows one does not comprehend the true omnipotence (all powerful), omnipresence (present everywhere), omniscient (knows all things) nature of our sovereign God and Creator, nor does he bow in humility to his Creator. Like Satan, the lost man seeks to elevate himself to God's level and above. Therefore many men miss the truth and reality of God's essence because they ignorantly try to perceive Him as being as a physical being as are they. God has revealed Himself to all men in His word the Bible and it would behoove all men to believe what their Creator has said about Himself. Paul stated God's mandate when addressing the unbelieving Athenians as recorded in Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent."

John said, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world" (1 John 4:1-3 ).

His statement makes it absolutely vital that a person fully believe in the Trinity, which means to accept who and what God really truly is. Because all men are lost in sin, only our supernatural Creator can save this lost and dying world and only by fully believing God's promise of salvation can one be saved and receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life. The truth of the Trinity is unconditionally tied to accepting Him as He is.

(December 2001, September 2005, February, 2012)



http://www.bible-truth.org/Trinity.html
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:19 AM   #14
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The appeals to "mounds of proof" and hand waving when it comes to facing equivocation regarding grace means that what he's likely referring to is the "research" done by a church that has teachings against these two things: ie JW or Mormon.

Your well founded biblical hermeneutics are likely pearls of wisdom for which you will be bitten: I say this because I've already invited said "proof" and it was not forth-coming and because that was the response I got for presenting my own ideas. He's made it clear that his views are 100% evidence based whilst disagreeing with him means you are compromising for political gain.

Given that JW/Mormon is likely, there is explicit dismissal of the most accurate translations of the bible (because of modern translation /apostasy); but I'm prepared to speak to these 'evidences' on their own terms (the greek/pre-apostasy) I just need to know what philosophical grounding I'm speaking to.


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His statement makes it absolutely vital that a person fully believe in the Trinity, which means to accept who and what God really truly is. Because all men are lost in sin, only our supernatural Creator can save this lost and dying world and only by fully believing God's promise of salvation can one be saved and receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life. The truth of the Trinity is unconditionally tied to accepting Him as He is.
It's hard to argue against this: it is clear in 1st John that those that deny the divinity and fleshy nature of Jesus are anti-christ, and that no evil spirit can admit to the trinity; such is the test of what spirits are good v. evil.

That said, I think that ignorance/denial of the trinity does not mean you can't confess Jesus as lord and believe that God resurrected him. But, much as with the murderer that becomes a Christian, the natural outcome of the Christian walk will be accepting the Trinity and the natural outcome of the self-serving other-hurting lust and pride in your life is to become less like that and more like Christ.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:03 AM   #15
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That said, I think that ignorance/denial of the trinity does not mean you can't confess Jesus as lord and believe that God resurrected him. But, much as with the murderer that becomes a Christian, the natural outcome of the Christian walk will be accepting the Trinity and the natural outcome of the self-serving other-hurting lust and pride in your life is to become less like that and more like Christ.
i AM IN AGREEMENT WITH YOU!!
It is my experience that many times the water gets muddied by things that really have no bearing on confessing Jesus as Lord and that God resurrected him!

Let me say for the record...on this forum anyways...the individual was called on his statements and he did not come forth with proof......if could be mis-speaking but I believe when called upon for proof he is suppose to come forth with his proof....
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:19 AM   #16
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You guys are side tracking this thread with a bunch of hand waving. It's not on topic and quite frankly using the bible as proof that god exists is idiotic.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:05 AM   #17
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The false teacher asks foolish questions which causes people to doubt the Word of God. The true teacher encourages people to believe the Word of God despite whether its teachings seem perfectly reasonable to human understanding or not.[13] The problem is not with what the Bible reveals, but with man's unwillingness to accept and understand what God has stated as fact.




http://www.bible-truth.org/Trinity.html
That's gullibility, just believe and ignore any questions you may have contrary to what the Church has dogmatically taught.

No, I wave my hand when people don't like to be questioned or challenged (ahem, Catholic Church, IMO) and then assert that questioning amounts to 'false teaching", or on other words, heresy.

Intelligent people asks questions, gullible ones don't. You can't expect a reasonable person to "believe" something that doesn't make sense to him.

People that have questioned the Trinity doctrine throughout history have been burned, dismissed from the Church, murdered... simply becasue they looked into the Bible and had legitimate questions.

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It is my experience that many times the water gets muddied by things that really have no bearing on confessing Jesus as Lord and that God resurrected him!
I thought God WAS Jesus, so how can God resurrect "Him" (you've just separated the two). Shouldn't you have said "God resurrected himself"?

You've just made them two separate beings with this statement.

Again, I hand-wave false dogma -- the Trinity is full of it.

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Old 02-22-2013, 08:20 AM   #18
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A small mistake was that he placed the sun in the center of the universe though.
I don't mean this in a mean way, but wanted to say I laughed out loud at the sentence.

I know how you meant it, but read it and it does sound pretty funny to call it 'small'.

'The president effectively got the problem with the nuclear bombs fixed, but made a small mistake in launching them at the wrong countries'.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:23 AM   #19
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Just to emphasize...

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That's gullibility, just believe and ignore any questions you may have contrary to what the Church has dogmatically taught.
Having been on the receiving end of this exact sort of statement, I'm sure you know how it feels, and can do your fellow Christians the favor of not directing same at them.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:26 AM   #20
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Just to emphasize...



Having been on the receiving end of this exact sort of statement, I'm sure you know how it feels, and can do your fellow Christians the favor of not directing same at them.
I gotcha'.

For the record, I don't consider myself a 'fellow Christian', fyi.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:27 AM   #21
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I don't mean this in a mean way, but wanted to say I laughed out loud at the sentence.

I know how you meant it, but read it and it does sound pretty funny to call it 'small'.

'The president effectively got the problem with the nuclear bombs fixed, but made a small mistake in launching them at the wrong countries'.
lol funny. You know what I meant though. The placement of the sun in the universe was irrelevant to the discussion they were having back then. They were arguing whether the Earth was the center of the universe or the Sun. It was a couple hundred years before Hubble even proved there were other galaxies.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:16 AM   #22
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Let me say for the record...on this forum anyways...the individual was called on his statements and he did not come forth with proof......if could be mis-speaking but I believe when called upon for proof he is suppose to come forth with his proof....
Actually, my proof is in your own argument, as a wiki acticle defines the Trinity as currently a mystery.

So we have the complete Bible, with all the prophecies that we now understand, and one teaching is still a "mystery", however, you have many a quote so-called showing us what the Trinity is, but we don't understand it... it's a mystery.

Actually, one thing Jesus said was "your word is truth" - John 17:17, and truth isn't "mysterious" or confusing to many like this dogma is.

One thing I know about anything that's truth is that leads to little or no confusion among adherents, yet, this dogma is full of "mystery", "confusion" and has caused the death of many that dare attempt to uncover what this really is.

There are three main reasons I scoff at this teaching:

1) It's confusing, "mysterious", impossible to explain to anyone with half a brain, yet, the Bible has been completed for 2,000 something years, and yall can't even understand "who" God really is -- is he Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God himself, or is he all-in-one.

2) People are told to just "believe" and that their salvation isn't dependant upon understanding or accepting this Trinity dogma. Then, why is it taught, may I ask?

3) It has it's roots when Contanstine wanted unity within his ranks.


This is a man-made doctrine all the way and it was forced on people, by threat of banishment and death, yet Christ didn't force anyone to accept him, yet the "Church" has a history of forcing things on people and shedding innocent blood.

This isn't something Jesus taught -- to abuse power and influence to get converts, stealing pagan Holidays such as Christmas, adopting Greek philosophy such as Plato's "immortalilty of the soul", etc.

Sorry, I will pass on your interpretation of a "triune" God until you can rid your religion of the false stuff currently in it, and prove that you guys really are "Christian".
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:24 AM   #23
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i AM IN AGREEMENT WITH YOU!!
It is my experience that many times the water gets muddied by things that really have no bearing on confessing Jesus as Lord and that God resurrected him!

Let me say for the record...on this forum anyways...the individual was called on his statements and he did not come forth with proof......if could be mis-speaking but I believe when called upon for proof he is suppose to come forth with his proof....
How can one provide proof for a book of fiction?

Similar to like how the Church(es) became embroiled in an uproar over the Da Vinci Code.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:46 AM   #24
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I gotcha'.

For the record, I don't consider myself a 'fellow Christian', fyi.
What denomination are you? Jehovah's Witness?
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- Albert Einstein

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Old 02-22-2013, 11:49 AM   #25
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How can one provide proof for a book of fiction?

Similar to like how the Church(es) became embroiled in an uproar over the Da Vinci Code.
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I agree with what you are saying!

but I also will tell you that is where the word - FAITH come in.....if we take what I am saying as the protestants would; then lets use a verse out of the scriptures...Ephesians 2:8 -- For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God. .......

The whole issue of religion boils down to one word in my opinion -- Faith......

We can talk all day about proof or lack of proof yet in the end we will truly know one way or the other when we have passed on.....
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