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Old 02-20-2013, 12:10 PM   #51
Moonbeam
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TraumaRN: So I feel I should say this first, I realize I'm potentially opening a can of worms with this thread, and potentially testing the potential limits of this new forum. I sincerely hope not as the discussions so far seem very civil and well argued. With that out of the way onwards to the topic at hand.

M: I don't think this is the new forum.

T: Morality without religion or god(s). This has been a quietly hot button issue in my life over the last few months especially because I'm an atheist. I believe myself to be literal anecdotal proof that you don't need religion to be moral. I believe the function of morality is make life around us more ordered, to make coexisting with others less of a struggle. I believe we are rational animals who can make a reasoned and intelligent choices regarding cause/effect of our actions, and that morality allows us to live happier, more harmonious, more peaceful lives. Morality should allow to live our lives without suffering, or at least minimize any suffering.

M: Why do you believe this? It is because you know something. You can taste it. You have felt it all your life. What is the matrix.

You do not believe in God but He believes in you. You do not see Him because you are looking for Him out there. But He is in your words and He drives them. He is beyond suffering and He's calling to you to join Him, to transcend the prison you have been put in.

"Did you but suffer you would not suffer", the words of Christ, so I'm told, from the Apocrypha. The Buddha sat under the Bo tree and felt everything, he pierced the vale and returned to his true state, oneness with everything. The Oneness is real and its absence is why we suffer, we believe things that do not exist, that there is good and evil, God and NoGod, Opposites that do not exist. There is only the direct apperception of what exists in the now, the timeless place where there are no questions, no suffering, nothing but awareness of love.

It is that big love in oneness that you desire and that drives you, that you can feel and that makes you long for good. You are nothing but that good but you and all of us have been damaged and have lost true faith, the faith that love exists nowhere but in our own heart. Because you are driven by this feeling, this longing for something you can't put your finger on, you should feel no need to tell anybody you don't believe in God. You do, but for you He needs a different name.

T: But whenever I end up in a discussion of morals with people, I find my lack of belief in god being thrown back in my face.

M: Because the religious feel the same pull but were taught that God is out there.

T: Such as one of the doctor's I work with saying that without God she wouldn't have the strength to care for sick people and that without God her patients would die because she wouldn't care as much about that, and that without God you just can't be moral and just. Let's just say when she said that I immediately recused myself.

M: You and God recused her. She uses God to open her door to a better self and feels that it is better. She does not want to lose that and believes it's a requirement. You don't need a God for a door stop. Your love has already opened that door. As a believer in God you may allow the war with the faithful to end. You are the proof of your faith just as you said. Know it. The need for affirmation that a man can be loving without a God disappears in loving. Real love admits no doubt.

T: Let me just say for the record how terrifying it is to hear someone claim they need God or anything else to be able to care for sick people. It makes me think you have no empathy, no ability to care for others. As an aside this same doctor refused to give Plan B to a rape victim in our ER because her religion and morals wouldn't allow her to do that. Thankfully another provider stepped in to help, but I digress(that will be another thread I think). It goes without saying I try to avoid working with this particular doctor.

M: There is no room in love for terror nor any need for anger. She is blind and you can see. Love ends duality. The more conscious person always bears the greater moral weight. If you suffer you will not suffer.

T: The second example was one of my former friends, I broke the news to her I was atheist and her reaction was not good. She told me that I had turned away from God and towards evil and that she couldn't trust me because I didn't have God as a proverbial anchor for my morals.

M: You turned away from the belief that God is out there. Your God is your moral belief, the love that makes you feel empathy. God is love. Everybody knows that, no?

T: Which brings me to my point for debate. I personally think that part of the problems specifically in America is our moral beliefs. I think too many of the people in power use religion as a basis for morals and it is causing massive amounts of harm. I believe that we have a massive lack of critical thinking as a society at large. We are too selfish, too enamored with this idea of "I'm self reliant you should be too, if you aren't you get nothing!" My own profession of health care is the perfect example of that. Why in 2013 do people have to make a choice between paying for food and keeping the lights on or paying for their own health. That is morally reprehensible to me. Cheap(or free access) to health should be a basic human right for EVERYONE, regardless of your circumstances. And let me be clear on my final point, I'm not advocating atheism by any means here, I'm advocating for using critical thinking, reason and intelligence to build a more moral society. Sorry if I got a little wordy!

M: Yes, critical thinking, reason, and intelligence would be nice when it's love that drives them. You are not alone and the kingdom of heaven is within you.

As the Divinely Beloved who loves you more than you can possibly ever love yourself once said, 'Relax and be happy."
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:17 PM   #52
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As mentioned above, morality in the context of "the greater good" can differ from morals created from religious values.

Examples: Having an abortion on a fetus that resulted from incest, or for a deadbeat dad that would ultimately result in a bitter child that grows up to be a serial killer, would be moral in the sense of the "greater good" in that it helped the world be a slightly less messed up place to be. In religious terms, the abortion is immoral, since it's regarded as killing. This is one of the hot-button issues that causes conflict between those who base morals from their religious background, versus those who create their morals for the greater common good.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:17 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by waggy View Post
who is to say that's not pure?

very contradictory though heh.
I suppose I could have wrote that better. We're Meat, God eats Meat, demands us to be Pure in many ways, it also seems to be rather Picky about things. God also talks a lot about Harvesting and Feasting. Impure cast into fire, Pure taken to his home where a feast occurs.

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Old 02-20-2013, 12:18 PM   #54
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If there are no absolutes, how is reasoning better than religion then, if two people can reason themselves to opposite conclusions?
Reason solves Problems.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:21 PM   #55
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The question is perhaps more interesting or at least relevant when phrased as "Are morals relative or absolute". From the perspective of someone who believes that morals are given by a creator of all things, it's the latter. If one believes that we're it, then morals are arbitrary constructs of whatever one's society happens to be. In essence there is no right or wrong in absolute terms. Slavery now is consisted immoral, but in the past no, and as one cannot assign absolute immutable qualities to the ephemeral, we are in no position to judge other cultures or times.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:24 PM   #56
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The question is perhaps more interesting or at least relevant when phrased as "Are morals relative or absolute". From the perspective of someone who believes that morals are given by a creator of all things, it's the former. There is no higher authority. If one believes that we're out, then morals are arbitrary constructs of whatever one's society happens to be. In essence there is no right or wrong in absolute terms. Slavery now is consisted immoral, but in the past no, as one cannot assign absolute immutable qualities to the ephemeral.
Slavery was ok, according to the Bible.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:26 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Juddog View Post
As mentioned above, morality in the context of "the greater good" can differ from morals created from religious values.

Examples: Having an abortion on a fetus that resulted from incest, or for a deadbeat dad that would ultimately result in a bitter child that grows up to be a serial killer, would be moral in the sense of the "greater good" in that it helped the world be a slightly less messed up place to be. In religious terms, the abortion is immoral, since it's regarded as killing. This is one of the hot-button issues that causes conflict between those who base morals from their religious background, versus those who create their morals for the greater common good.
What's this greater common good of which you speak? Who gets to define it? What if there are conflicts in our definitions?
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:26 PM   #58
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. Cheap(or free access) to health should be a basic human right for EVERYONE, regardless of your circumstances.
Judging by your username... I take it you are a nurse. How much do you get paid? How long were you in school? Are you willing work for free to provide cheap healthcare?

If I could push a button and have a plate of nutritional food in front of me that materialized from thin air... I would say food should be a basic human right. But someone has to pay for seed and fertilizer, grow the food, pick the food, ship the food, etc. I can't expect anyone to do that for free.

Now the moral side of me says help those who cannot help themselves. So I donate to a local food bank or to organizations that provide healthcare to those who cannot afford it.

What if I cannot find any farmers or doctors to work cheap or for free? Do we make them do it at gunpoint?
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:28 PM   #59
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Slavery was ok, according to the Bible.
Source?
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:29 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by rudder View Post
Judging by your username... I take it you are a nurse. How much do you get paid? How long were you in school? Are you willing work for free to provide cheap healthcare?

If I could push a button and have a plate of nutritional food in front of me that materialized from thin air... I would say food should be a basic human right. But someone has to pay for seed and fertilizer, grow the food, pick the food, ship the food, etc. I can't expect anyone to do that for free.

Now the moral side of me says help those who cannot help themselves. So I donate to a local food bank or to organizations that provide healthcare to those who cannot afford it.

What if I cannot find any farmers or doctors to work cheap or for free? Do we make them do it at gunpoint?
And thus the Hammer of Rationality came down upon the Appeal from Emotion.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:30 PM   #61
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Source?
err..have you read the bible?
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:56 PM   #62
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And thus the Hammer of Rationality came down upon the Appeal from Emotion.
Here's the thing, the vast majority of the developed world has some kind of health care for everyone regardless of ability to pay. The nurses and doctors still make decent wages. Why is that so hard to do in America? Oh wait all those poor impoverished people are just lazy welfare kings/queens give them nothing until they pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I see peoples lives get destroyed all the time because they can't afford healthcare. So yeah you could say I'm a bit emotional about it. And damn me for caring about my fellow human beings and trying to improve peoples lives.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:57 PM   #63
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So I feel I should say this first, I realize I'm potentially opening a can of worms with this thread, and potentially testing the potential limits of this new forum. I sincerely hope not as the discussions so far seem very civil and well argued. With that out of the way onwards to the topic at hand.

Morality without religion or god(s). This has been a quietly hot button issue in my life over the last few months especially because I'm an atheist. I believe myself to be literal anecdotal proof that you don't need religion to be moral. I believe the function of morality is make life around us more ordered, to make coexisting with others less of a struggle. I believe we are rational animals who can make a reasoned and intelligent choices regarding cause/effect of our actions, and that morality allows us to live happier, more harmonious, more peaceful lives. Morality should allow to live our lives without suffering, or at least minimize any suffering.

But whenever I end up in a discussion of morals with people, I find my lack of belief in god being thrown back in my face. Such as one of the doctor's I work with saying that without God she wouldn't have the strength to care for sick people and that without God her patients would die because she wouldn't care as much about that, and that without God you just can't be moral and just. Let's just say when she said that I immediately recused myself. Let me just say for the record how terrifying it is to hear someone claim they need God or anything else to be able to care for sick people. It makes me think you have no empathy, no ability to care for others. As an aside this same doctor refused to give Plan B to a rape victim in our ER because her religion and morals wouldn't allow her to do that. Thankfully another provider stepped in to help, but I digress(that will be another thread I think). It goes without saying I try to avoid working with this particular doctor.

The second example was one of my former friends, I broke the news to her I was atheist and her reaction was not good. She told me that I had turned away from God and towards evil and that she couldn't trust me because I didn't have God as a proverbial anchor for my morals.

Which brings me to my point for debate. I personally think that part of the problems specifically in America is our moral beliefs. I think too many of the people in power use religion as a basis for morals and it is causing massive amounts of harm. I believe that we have a massive lack of critical thinking as a society at large. We are too selfish, too enamored with this idea of "I'm self reliant you should be too, if you aren't you get nothing!" My own profession of health care is the perfect example of that. Why in 2013 do people have to make a choice between paying for food and keeping the lights on or paying for their own health. That is morally reprehensible to me. Cheap(or free access) to health should be a basic human right for EVERYONE, regardless of your circumstances. And let me be clear on my final point, I'm not advocating atheism by any means here, I'm advocating for using critical thinking, reason and intelligence to build a more moral society. Sorry if I got a little wordy!
That just makes me sad that your friends need a GOD/RELIGION to tell them not to rob, rape and murder their neighdors, well eat them too while we are at it. WAIT A MINUTE!!! If you read the Bible, GOD does give his loyal followers permission/orders to do all of that.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:03 PM   #64
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Source?
Holy Bible, Olde Testament. Bibles are free at most second hand stores/food banks, please get one and read instead of asking for free education on the internet.
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After thirty years of union busting, deregulation, tax breaks for the rich and etc. nearly duplicating the economic conditions preceeding the Great Depression, you wonder why we had another one? 90% tax on the rich, that made this country great! Then Kennedy dropped it to 70% and it's been down hill ever since. Conservative's worst nightmare come true; a second term Obama Presidency. Rush Limbaugh the American Osama Bin Laden.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:03 PM   #65
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Source?
He told you. The bible.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:05 PM   #66
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Here's the thing, the vast majority of the developed world has some kind of health care for everyone regardless of ability to pay. The nurses and doctors still make decent wages. Why is that so hard to do in America? Oh wait all those poor impoverished people are just lazy welfare kings/queens give them nothing until they pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I see peoples lives get destroyed all the time because they can't afford healthcare. So yeah you could say I'm a bit emotional about it. And damn me for caring about my fellow human beings and trying to improve peoples lives.
You didn't just say you care, you said it was a RIGHT, which is different, and which rudder addressed. And what does this have to do with morality?
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:08 PM   #67
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And when did I say that?
You bolded the part, and responded to it with a "no one does that". Relying on religion for your morals is that.

People don't always "choose", very often it's because that's what was taught from a young age. Fear tactics and brainwashing, aka indoctrination.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:13 PM   #68
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Holy Bible, Olde Testament. Bibles are free at most second hand stores/food banks, please get one and read instead of asking for free education on the internet.
The Old Testament is very specific and detailed regarding Slavery. However, even the New Testament discusses Slavery without raising even the slightest quibble of moral protest against it.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:22 PM   #69
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Source?
Old Testament: too many to count.

New Testament (for the people that ignore the old testament):
Ephesians 6:5
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."

Timothy 6:1
"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered."
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:26 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Mursilis View Post
What's this greater common good of which you speak? Who gets to define it? What if there are conflicts in our definitions?
Here is a good listen to, when you have some time:
http://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_...t_s_right.html
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:32 PM   #71
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Old Testament: too many to count.

New Testament (for the people that ignore the old testament):
Ephesians 6:5
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."

Timothy 6:1
"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered."
That text merely reflects that slavery was practiced at the time, but doesn't endorse it.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:34 PM   #72
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Here is a good listen to, when you have some time:
http://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_...t_s_right.html
Any original answers?
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:35 PM   #73
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That text merely reflects that slavery was practiced at the time, but doesn't endorse it.
Doesn't condemn it either. Gives tacit approval.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:37 PM   #74
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Doesn't condemn it either. Gives tacit approval.
First sentence is correct, but not the second.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:40 PM   #75
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First sentence is correct, but not the second.
Incorrect. If Slavery is Immoral and Morality comes from God/Bible, why does the God/Bible never condemn it?
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