Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Software > Console Gaming

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Home and Garden
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals with Free Stuff/Contests
· Black Friday 2014
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-07-2013, 05:00 PM   #151
American Gunner
Platinum Member
 
American Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,398
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoberFett View Post
Fail. This has been debunked over and over. Used games do support the market, because used games were once new games. Without the ability to sell something you no longer need, the value of a new game MUST decrease. If the price of games does not decrease to match the lessened value, then fewer people will buy the new item.

This is pretty basic economics.
Sold used game= $0 for developer. That is pretty basic economics.
American Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 05:02 PM   #152
BoberFett
Lifer
 
BoberFett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 33,839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaurusX View Post
Here's a novel question: How do you expect to be able to play the DRM'd games of today 20 years from now? If you need an always-on internet connection or code verification to some server at the publisher's HQ, what happens when that server is turned off? The retro games of the 80's and 90's are still easily enjoyed, because they were stand alone products and not tenuously connected bits of far flung programming code.
You've hit on another reason for DRM. The industry doesn't just want to sell every gamer their own copy. They want to sell every gamer their own copy multiple times. They see what the online marketplace has done for vintage games and emulators, and they want more of that moving forward. Right now you have the option to find an old console and play old cartridges on it if that's your style. They want to eliminate that.
__________________
"You had me at Meat Tornado." -- "I was born ready. I'm Ron f***ing Swanson."
BoberFett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 05:02 PM   #153
BoberFett
Lifer
 
BoberFett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 33,839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Gunner View Post
Sold used game= $0 for developer. That is pretty basic economics.
Wow. You've successfully mapped all of economics into a single transaction. The Nobel committee will surely want to hear from you.
__________________
"You had me at Meat Tornado." -- "I was born ready. I'm Ron f***ing Swanson."
BoberFett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 05:19 PM   #154
Tweak155
Diamond Member
 
Tweak155's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9,091
Default

I just hope they set up a way out. It sounds like it could lead to disaster. I for one would not buy the console if I couldn't sell my unused games. And I 9/10 buy new.

They'd have to drop the price like Steam-level.
__________________
Organo Gold Coffee

Heatware 92-0-0
Tweak155 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 10:16 AM   #155
Raduque
Lifer
 
Raduque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cplusplus View Post
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with being cheap, because there isn't. I'm saying that the price difference isn't there, especially if you're willing to take store credit instead of cash. Multiple stores will give you $20 off a game in store credit by pre-ordering it (I can give you specific examples from Best Buy, Microsoft's online store, and Amazon), and some will offer games for $10-12 off the price directly before release (Newegg). And that is for a game that you will either be able to pick up the day it releases, or have it shipped to you that day. That right there is much better than buying used from places like Gamestop, and about on the same level (if not a little better, as I don't use Ebay for buying games) as buying used from Ebay, but without the hassle of having to go through the various issues you might have with an Ebay purchase. So if gamers are buying used instead of looking around and using deals like this, then yes, I'm going to call them lazy, because that's exactly what they're being, and costing themselves money by doing so.
What about people like me, who wait 6+ months to get a better deal. Games get cheaper as they age - I just bought Heavenly Sword used for $10 two months or so ago.

Saving $10 or $15 off the price of a new game isn't worth it when I can just wait a while and get it for $30-40 off.
__________________
Wrote a note said Be Back in a Minute
Bought a boat and I sailed off in it
Don't think anybody's gonna miss me anyway


Heat
ForSale
Raduque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 03:01 PM   #156
KentState
Diamond Member
 
KentState's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 5,783
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Gunner View Post
Sold used game= $0 for developer. That is pretty basic economics.
That's a pretty narrow sighted view of game sales. If I have the possibility of recouping part of the purchase price on a game, I'm more likely to take a risk and buy more games. Take that option away and my purchases will be far less.
__________________
Asus Maximus VI Hero | Intel - 4770k | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB RAM | EVGA GTX 780 Ti SC | Samsung 840 EVO 500GB | Plextor M3 256GB | Samsung 840 250GB x4 | XFX 750W | HP ZR2740W | Windowns 8
Asus P8Z77-V Deluxe | Intel - 3770k | G.Skill 32GB RAM | Vortex 3 120GB | VMWare ESXi 5
MSI GT60 | Intel - 4700MQ | 16GB RAM | NVidia 780M | 128GB SSD | Windows 8
PSN/XBL/Steam: bucknut2006
KentState is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 04:19 PM   #157
Doppel
Lifer
 
Doppel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 13,313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Gunner View Post
Sold used game= $0 for developer. That is pretty basic economics.
So you're saying the perceived residual value of a product has no influence on its price when new? Are you really saying this?

Before you answer that with a yes please consider homes, cars, art work, firearms, etc.
Doppel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 10:48 PM   #158
cmdrdredd
Lifer
 
cmdrdredd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 20,382
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Gunner View Post
Sold used game= $0 for developer. That is pretty basic economics.
However, the developer gets their money as soon as it hits the shelves. The retailer pays an amount for each copy. The retailer makes up for it and then a profit on top. Used games do NOT hurt developers.

The only reason developers are afraid of used is because theyr games have increasingly become garbage shovelware or yearly map packs sold at $60 with additionmal DLC including day one DLC at $5 or more. They will lose that market if people stop buying new titles.
__________________
Asus Maximus V Gene | 3570k @ 4.5 | 8GB Samsung 30nm @ 2133 | EVGA GTX 670 FTW SLI @ 1230/6765
2x 128GB Crucial M4 SSD | WD 300GB Velociraptor | Lite-On HBS212 BD-R | Corsair HX1000 PSU
Cooler Master HAF 932 | Yamakasi Catleap Q270 | Windows 8.1 Pro
cmdrdredd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 02:26 AM   #159
cplusplus
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 91
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raduque View Post
What about people like me, who wait 6+ months to get a better deal. Games get cheaper as they age - I just bought Heavenly Sword used for $10 two months or so ago.

Saving $10 or $15 off the price of a new game isn't worth it when I can just wait a while and get it for $30-40 off.
The price going down over time isn't exclusive to used games, though. The longer a game is out, the more likely it is to go on sale (new or used). So the longer you wait, the better deal you can get for a new copy as well. For most AAA games, if you look around, you can get them for $30-40 within two months after release every couple weeks, and once you get past 6 months, they'll routinely go for $30 or lower. While it takes an annoyingly long time for MSRP on most console games to fall (and truthfully, many AAA PC games as well), it's not that hard to find games going for below MSRP.

And I looked around, and it looks like Heavenly Sword is actually not an easy game to pick up new. Amazon doesn't have any in it's warehouse (only some Fulfilled by Amazon merchants do), and Gamestop and Best Buy only carry it pre-owned. I wouldn't be surprised if, since it wasn't a big hit, there just aren't that many new pressings of the disc out there anymore. Which would drive up the price of a new copy solely due to scarcity. Which the digital distribution networks of both consoles should hopefully help to solve.
cplusplus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 05:11 PM   #160
Pheran
Diamond Member
 
Pheran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 5,378
Default

VGLeaks has a quick but interesting article on how display planes work in the new GPU.
__________________
Main PC: Antec Solo II | Gigabyte GA-Z77-DS3H | Core i5 3450 | Crucial Ballistix 16GB DDR3 1600 | HIS IceQ 7870
Intel SSD 330 240G | 2x500GB HD RAID1 | Corsair TX650 Power Supply | Dell U2312HM


Heatware: Pheran
Pheran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 11:51 AM   #161
TheSlamma
Diamond Member
 
TheSlamma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 5,387
Default

That Durango doesn't look good in comparison to Orbit. MS was being smart by being the easy to program for console in the last generation. If they can't retain that I see PS4 getting the better titles and the preferred performance
TheSlamma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:11 PM   #162
Raduque
Lifer
 
Raduque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cplusplus View Post
The price going down over time isn't exclusive to used games, though. The longer a game is out, the more likely it is to go on sale (new or used).
No, you're right, but I'm a cheap bastard with limited funds for gaming. So take a used copy for $10 vs a new copy for $20, and I'm buying the used one.
__________________
Wrote a note said Be Back in a Minute
Bought a boat and I sailed off in it
Don't think anybody's gonna miss me anyway


Heat
ForSale
Raduque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2013, 03:33 PM   #163
pakotlar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 432
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppel View Post
So you're saying the perceived residual value of a product has no influence on its price when new? Are you really saying this?

Before you answer that with a yes please consider homes, cars, art work, firearms, etc.
That's a great point and something I think that Microsoft & others should consider when instituting policies that reduce the indirect value of their goods.

A salient example in my mind is the Android open source community: I wouldn't have kept my Note 2 had I been forced to stay with TW ux; and had Verizon enforced a policy preventing custom ROM installation they would have lost a ~$2200 sale.
__________________
Heat: pakotlar (30-0-0) http://www.heatware.com/eval.php?id=20631

Last edited by pakotlar; 02-16-2013 at 03:36 PM.
pakotlar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2013, 04:28 PM   #164
dagamer34
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,548
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Gunner View Post
Sold used game= $0 for developer. That is pretty basic economics.
What's worse is that even if I wanted to buy a less-than-popular game new, they don't make it easy to do. I still don't get why the entire back catalog from 2005/6-2011 or so isn't just sitting on XBL Marketplace and PSN at reasonable prices waiting for you to buy them at $ 14.99 or something. Instant profit from people would rather just play the game RIGHT NOW instead of fumbling around Gamestop for a used copy or waiting 2 days to get one from Amazon.
__________________
iMac with Retina 5K Display | 15" MacBook Pro with Retina Display| Mac mini | iPad Air 2 | iPhone 6 Plus
dagamer34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2013, 04:54 PM   #165
MichaelBarg
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 70
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dagamer34 View Post
What's worse is that even if I wanted to buy a less-than-popular game new, they don't make it easy to do. I still don't get why the entire back catalog from 2005/6-2011 or so isn't just sitting on XBL Marketplace and PSN at reasonable prices waiting for you to buy them at $ 14.99 or something. Instant profit from people would rather just play the game RIGHT NOW instead of fumbling around Gamestop for a used copy or waiting 2 days to get one from Amazon.

This, so much this. It seems crazy too. The cost of delivering a game online is negligible and the price is almost pure profit. They must think there's a real problem doing that with current gen consoles because otherwise they are leaving a lot of money on the table.

I am hoping that the real reason for all this is that MS wants to do away with discs entirely. I suspect that they are looking at how successful Steam has been with PC gaming and want to move to that model for Xbox. If I could just download games to my Xbox and delete/reinstall as needed from my XBL account I might pay for XBL Gold. If we get a Steam style features on consoles I'd be happy to never buy another game on disc.
MichaelBarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 12:38 AM   #166
Pheran
Diamond Member
 
Pheran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 5,378
Default

Specs on the Kinect 2 sensor

This looks like a huge upgrade over the original Kinect.
__________________
Main PC: Antec Solo II | Gigabyte GA-Z77-DS3H | Core i5 3450 | Crucial Ballistix 16GB DDR3 1600 | HIS IceQ 7870
Intel SSD 330 240G | 2x500GB HD RAID1 | Corsair TX650 Power Supply | Dell U2312HM


Heatware: Pheran
Pheran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 12:41 AM   #167
American Gunner
Platinum Member
 
American Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,398
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pheran View Post
Specs on the Kinect 2 sensor

This looks like a huge upgrade over the original Kinect.
Woohoo! Now it will be an even better experience when I wave my hands and yell at my tv.
__________________
XBL: xGunner26x
Steam: xGunner26x
American Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 02:55 PM   #168
zerocool84
Lifer
 
zerocool84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 32,839
Default

Microsoft likely to reveal Xbox 360 successor at April event http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/22/40...gen-xbox-april

Lots of time between Sony's and Microsoft's events. Hopefully they show the console
zerocool84 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 03:11 PM   #169
American Gunner
Platinum Member
 
American Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,398
Default

One thing I wonder, a lot of people are thinking it will have pretty close specs to the PS4 and will undercut the price a bit. But if they are going to be a lot a like and MS is packing in Kinect 2.0, how can they afford to charge less than Sony?
__________________
XBL: xGunner26x
Steam: xGunner26x
American Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 03:34 PM   #170
zerocool84
Lifer
 
zerocool84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 32,839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Gunner View Post
One thing I wonder, a lot of people are thinking it will have pretty close specs to the PS4 and will undercut the price a bit. But if they are going to be a lot a like and MS is packing in Kinect 2.0, how can they afford to charge less than Sony?
I don't see how they can. I think they'll both be the same price and as of right now, Xbox is the name brand in gaming but as we've seen, this can easily change.
zerocool84 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 03:40 PM   #171
American Gunner
Platinum Member
 
American Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,398
Default

That's the thing that a lot of people are ignoring. I really hope MS isn't too full of themselves and come out and shock us. I am heavily invested in the 360, so I would love to roll right in to the next xbox. But I am very worried that they will focus on all the wrong things instead of awesome games.

Maybe they will come out in the press conference and say "Yeah, we have improved Kinect in these ways and it will be cool, and yes we have these cool apps and plans to improve the way you use us for everything, but here are our awesome games". I just don't see it going that way, but hopefully I will be surprised.

Edit: I also think it is a mistake for them to wait until April. They don't need to rush out and announce something, but waiting two months while the PS4 gets all the attention is a bad move, IMO.
__________________
XBL: xGunner26x
Steam: xGunner26x
American Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 03:48 PM   #172
Pheran
Diamond Member
 
Pheran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 5,378
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Gunner View Post
Edit: I also think it is a mistake for them to wait until April. They don't need to rush out and announce something, but waiting two months while the PS4 gets all the attention is a bad move, IMO.
I don't. I think the Sony event was rushed out with a "me first!" type mindset and they didn't even show a console. It makes them look desperate for attention.
__________________
Main PC: Antec Solo II | Gigabyte GA-Z77-DS3H | Core i5 3450 | Crucial Ballistix 16GB DDR3 1600 | HIS IceQ 7870
Intel SSD 330 240G | 2x500GB HD RAID1 | Corsair TX650 Power Supply | Dell U2312HM


Heatware: Pheran
Pheran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 03:51 PM   #173
American Gunner
Platinum Member
 
American Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,398
Default

True, we didn't get to see a plastic box that will give us the games they showed. That is the most important thing to me. They showed off games, and now game studios can talk about their games on the PS4, but not on the next Xbox. We all know one is coming, but the developers can't say that they are working on games for it, so it will hurt them for now.
__________________
XBL: xGunner26x
Steam: xGunner26x
American Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 03:52 PM   #174
Pheran
Diamond Member
 
Pheran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 5,378
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Gunner View Post
One thing I wonder, a lot of people are thinking it will have pretty close specs to the PS4 and will undercut the price a bit. But if they are going to be a lot a like and MS is packing in Kinect 2.0, how can they afford to charge less than Sony?
Keep in mind that the PS4 is supposed to include some kind of stereo camera, though I have no idea if it will actually include any Kinect-like functionality. Sadly, if the rumors about the upcoming Xbox specs are true, it looks like Sony will have the edge in graphics performance this generation. The CPUs sound pretty similar though.

I'm still eagerly waiting to see if MS includes any backwards-compatibility feature.
__________________
Main PC: Antec Solo II | Gigabyte GA-Z77-DS3H | Core i5 3450 | Crucial Ballistix 16GB DDR3 1600 | HIS IceQ 7870
Intel SSD 330 240G | 2x500GB HD RAID1 | Corsair TX650 Power Supply | Dell U2312HM


Heatware: Pheran
Pheran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 03:55 PM   #175
American Gunner
Platinum Member
 
American Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,398
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pheran View Post
Keep in mind that the PS4 is supposed to include some kind of stereo camera, though I have no idea if it will actually include any Kinect-like functionality. Sadly, if the rumors about the upcoming Xbox specs are true, it looks like Sony will have the edge in graphics performance this generation. The CPUs sound pretty similar though.

I'm still eagerly waiting to see if MS includes any backwards-compatibility feature.
I would take a more powerful console for the next 6-7 years over being able to play older games on my system, but that's just me.
__________________
XBL: xGunner26x
Steam: xGunner26x
American Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.