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Old 02-13-2013, 02:21 PM   #43826
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Originally Posted by echo4747 View Post
looks like all the surveillance videos the FDLE have provided are blank. Think it was on purpose?
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/docum...d_3_videos.pdf
Similar to the situation that created the gap in the Watergate tapes

for those that can remember that far back
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:52 PM   #43827
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Of course. This case has enormous visibility and implications, and it's pretty clear that the State intends to win regardless of the truth. Consequently they will do everything they can to hamper the defense with the thinnest shred of deniability. Such harassment is hardly uncommon. It's like holding requested materials to the last minute, then dumping tons of duplication and marginally related material with it. Anything to make the other side's job more difficult.

Of course, that says nothing about Zimmerman's innocence or guilt.
How is it you guys constantly say the only truth is, Zimmerman is innocent? There is another side of this story and the entire story is not about him getting his ass kicked. If that was the case I go do anything to anyone I wanted and when they retaliated, just shoot them and claim it was self defense. Truth be told nothing so far I have not seen or read anything that makes Trayvon's response far fetched. Let me chase your ass for several minutes and then lets see how politely you behave. Or better yet let me chase your SO or one of the your children, oh excuse me just keep and eye on them .
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:57 PM   #43828
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How is it you guys constantly say the only truth is, Zimmerman is innocent? There is another side of this story and the entire story is not about him getting his ass kicked. If that was the case I go do anything to anyone I wanted and when they retaliated, just shoot them and claim it was self defense. Truth be told nothing so far I have not seen or read anything that makes Trayvon's response far fetched. Let me chase your ass for several minutes and then lets see how politely you behave. Or better yet let me chase your SO or one of the your children, oh excuse me just keep and eye on them .
We say he's not guilty. There is a difference, that you refuse to acknowledge.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:00 PM   #43829
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How is it you guys constantly say the only truth is, Zimmerman is innocent? There is another side of this story and the entire story is not about him getting his ass kicked. If that was the case I go do anything to anyone I wanted and when they retaliated, just shoot them and claim it was self defense. Truth be told nothing so far I have not seen or read anything that makes Trayvon's response far fetched. Let me chase your ass for several minutes and then lets see how politely you behave. Or better yet let me chase your SO or one of the your children, oh excuse me just keep and eye on them .
It may not be far fetched to you that Martin's brutal and vicious felony assault and battery, that it was some how deserved or proper. Not surprised you would believe that at all. Nope, this is a common theme among trey-trey supporters - that the brutal and vicious beat down was proper, just and well deserved for the disrespecting of the young buck.

But that this brutal and vicious assault and beating is highly illegal, in fact it was a felony. As such, it was also a forcible felony. One can use any force necessary to stop a forcible felony or the imminent threat of one to one's person or life. All evidence proves martin committed a forcible felony and was an imminent threat to zimmerman's life as he lay on his back, after a brutal beating by martin who broke his nose and cause significant face and head damage, screaming for his life and unable to retreat.

Not one bit of evidence refutes these facts, not one bit of evidence has yet to be shown zimmerman committed ANY crime. ALL evidence proves felony aggravated assault and battery by martin.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:09 PM   #43830
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It may not be far fetched to you that Martin's brutal and vicious felony assault and battery, that it was some how deserved or proper.
I did not read the rest because the evidence, doesn't support a brutal beating. He was in a fight, that the evidence supports, he was more than willing to engage as a combatant. And a brutal beating requires followup care, which he sought out none. The pictures show a cut on his nose, but his nose did not require it to be reset or anything like that. But his face was rather clean of bruises or cuts that you would expect to see if a person is mounted on top raining down punches. A broken nose has different degrees, Zimmerman's was among the least.

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Broken Nose Follow-up
About 3-5 days after the swelling in the nose has gone away, a person may be referred to an ear, nose, and throat (ENT) doctor, an oral and maxillofacial surgeon (OMFS), or a plastic surgeon.

Follow-up care should not be delayed. A delay, especially longer than 7-10 days, may cause a broken bone to be set in a deformed state.
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/broke...article_em.htm

Zimmerman's followup to this brutal beating? Zilch. As a matter of fact, the first witness to talk to him stated Zimmerman acted like it was nothing, despite the fact he had just killed a person.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:09 PM   #43831
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How is it you guys constantly say the only truth is, Zimmerman is innocent? There is another side of this story and the entire story is not about him getting his ass kicked. If that was the case I go do anything to anyone I wanted and when they retaliated, just shoot them and claim it was self defense. Truth be told nothing so far I have not seen or read anything that makes Trayvon's response far fetched. Let me chase your ass for several minutes and then lets see how politely you behave. Or better yet let me chase your SO or one of the your children, oh excuse me just keep and eye on them .
to simplify what spidey will say.

If Martin was in control of Zimmerman for a period of time, enough to cause injuries and make Zimmerman fearful for his life; did Martin has the right to continue that behavior for as long as he felt like it?

If not; then at what point does Martin have an obligation to stop? Waht determines such time frame?

If Martin was not in control of Zimmerman; how does that square with the evidence.

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I did not read the rest because the evidence, doesn't support a brutal beating. He was in a fight, that the evidence supports, he was more than willing to engage as a combatant. And a brutal beating requires followup care, which he sought out none. The pictures show a cut on his nose, but his nose did not require it to be reset of anything like that. A broken nose has different degrees, Zimmerman's was among the least
The law dos not state the one has to take a brutal beating, not does it state how to determine what a brutal beating is.

It states that one must be fearful for their life. Choking on blood; having ones head hit onto the ground will potentially create fear. Feeling that the opponent may use a lethal weapon on you only increases the fear of one's life.

Nor does the evidence support that Zimmerman was a willing participant.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:39 PM   #43832
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Similar to the situation that created the gap in the Watergate tapes

for those that can remember that far back
This shows me more with each passing day that the state has no case and are hoping to cause GZ to run out of money/require a new lawyer.

I think the main reason they charged him with 2nd degree murder was he wouldn't be able to afford a good lawyer/defense and would to take a plea bargain (Win-Win for the state/politicians/lynch mob).
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:11 PM   #43833
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Win-Win for the state/politicians/lynch mob.
Quite sad that that would be looked upon as a "win", though I don't doubt that it's true.
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:21 PM   #43834
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Martin could outrun Zimmerman by a country mile. The idea that Zimmerman was chasing Martin seems silly. Martin could have been long gone from Zimmerman any time he chose to if he thought Zimmerman was chasing him.

In fact, there's really no way Zimmerman can chase Martin at all, imo.

Zimmerman can follow Martin, but not chase him, imo.

It's like claiming a Prius C can chase a ZR1.
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:47 PM   #43835
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How is it you guys constantly say the only truth is, Zimmerman is innocent? There is another side of this story and the entire story is not about him getting his ass kicked. If that was the case I go do anything to anyone I wanted and when they retaliated, just shoot them and claim it was self defense. Truth be told nothing so far I have not seen or read anything that makes Trayvon's response far fetched. Let me chase your ass for several minutes and then lets see how politely you behave. Or better yet let me chase your SO or one of the your children, oh excuse me just keep and eye on them .
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We say he's not guilty. There is a difference, that you refuse to acknowledge.
This. Zimmerman is certainly not innocent in the eyes of the Lord, but I don't think he's guilty of breaking any specific Florida laws. Obviously the prosecution disagrees, but the way they've gamed disclosure doesn't exactly give the appearance of great confidence in their case. I predict a lot of emotional appeals, a lot of large pictures of a younger Trayvon, and a very detailed computer simulation of what might have happened, but very little evidence showing what DID happen.

I do not believe Martin's response was "far fetched"; I've said before I think it was not an unexpected response given what he could have known. If however the evidence I've seen stands, his response was not legal. The law does not allow one to assault someone for following you, even if you and I understand such a response. Had Martin not been shot and Zimmerman sustained only the injuries he did, I think Martin would stand an excellent chance of getting assault charges dismissed. However, that does not change Zimmerman's guilt or lack thereof. He made a lot of bad judgments, but none that would legally justify an assault. (Note that I still think there's a better than average chance Zimmerman will be convicted, but I think it will be jury nullification rather than a reasoned decision that Zimmerman broke the law.)

As far as Zimmerman's response, I daresay that 90+% of ATPN forumites would not take a vicious beating if they had the means to stop it by shooting their assailant. I certainly would stop a beating were it in my power, including putting a bullet in my assailant. There is, and there should be, no legal requirement to take a beating (at least not in Florida; more left wing states obviously will vary) and when one is suddenly attacked, mounted and being beaten, I daresay very few people are going to think "You know, this isn't really such a bad beating. My nose is hardly broken at all, and I'm sure I'll recover." That doesn't mean I wouldn't feel terrible afterward, when I looked back at my own actions and saw how things could have gone down differently had I made different choices and actions, but if I'm being beaten my only priority is to stop the beating.

As far as Zimmerman's follow-up care for a broken nose, if you don't have insurance and you don't have money, you live with it. Look at how many people have obviously broken noses.
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:57 PM   #43836
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Martin could outrun Zimmerman by a country mile. The idea that Zimmerman was chasing Martin seems silly. Martin could have been long gone from Zimmerman any time he chose to if he thought Zimmerman was chasing him.

In fact, there's really no way Zimmerman can chase Martin at all, imo.

Zimmerman can follow Martin, but not chase him, imo.

It's like claiming a Prius C can chase a ZR1.
Many in this thread claim Martin was a drug addict who smoked all sorts of weed and was high from sipping on Lean that night. It would be easy for most to chase a person in that condition.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:02 PM   #43837
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Doesn't matter. ALL the evidence actually proves martin doubled back to begin his brutal attack and vicious beatdown of the victim zimmerman who was doing NOTHING wrong at the time.

That is a forcible felony and can get you shot. Especially if you mount your victim after brutally and viciously beating them repeatedly about the head as they scream for their life. You do that in most of our free states and you're gonna get dead.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:13 AM   #43838
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to simplify what spidey will say.

If Martin was in control of Zimmerman for a period of time, enough to cause injuries and make Zimmerman fearful for his life; did Martin has the right to continue that behavior for as long as he felt like it?

If not; then at what point does Martin have an obligation to stop? Waht determines such time frame?

If Martin was not in control of Zimmerman; how does that square with the evidence.
Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. How does that square with Martin being in control ?

Just a theory. I think its plausible that Zimmerman didn't want to 'escape' his position, if he was on the ground under Martin. If he thought Martin was armed he may have thought he'd be in more danger trying to escape than he would be in shooting first.

As it turned out, Martin wasn't armed.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:41 AM   #43839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleKeeper View Post
to simplify what spidey will say.

If Martin was in control of Zimmerman for a period of time, enough to cause injuries and make Zimmerman fearful for his life; did Martin has the right to continue that behavior for as long as he felt like it?

If not; then at what point does Martin have an obligation to stop? Waht determines such time frame?

If Martin was not in control of Zimmerman; how does that square with the evidence.
Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. How does that square with Martin being in control ?

Just a theory. I think its plausible that Zimmerman didn't want to 'escape' his position, if he was on the ground under Martin. If he thought Martin was armed he may have thought he'd be in more danger trying to escape than he would be in shooting first.

As it turned out, Martin wasn't armed.
At some point it seems, Zimmerman was able to get an arm free enough to control the weapon. Was it because Martin let his guard completely down or shifted to a different priority.

Zimmerman's statement indicates the later.

Given the rest of the ballistic evidence; Martin was still physically on top of Zimmerman at the instant of the shoot.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:46 AM   #43840
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Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. How does that square with Martin being in control ?

Just a theory. I think its plausible that Zimmerman didn't want to 'escape' his position, if he was on the ground under Martin. If he thought Martin was armed he may have thought he'd be in more danger trying to escape than he would be in shooting first.

As it turned out, Martin wasn't armed.
So, your what if lends even MORE credibility to self defense if zimmerman believed martin was armed. That's what makes this such a 100% clearly self defense scenario as ALL the evidence actually proves self defense rather than refute it.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:52 AM   #43841
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At some point it seems, Zimmerman was able to get an arm free enough to control the weapon. Was it because Martin let his guard completely down or shifted to a different priority.

Zimmerman's statement indicates the later.

Given the rest of the ballistic evidence; Martin was still physically on top of Zimmerman at the instant of the shoot.

Not technically true, it means Martin was above and leaned over GZ, there's no proof he was still physically on top.
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:01 PM   #43842
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Not technically true, it means Martin was above and leaned over GZ, there's no proof he was still physically on top.
Yes there is, the distance of the shot along with the burn marks and speckling means it was a near contact shot, under 12 inches.

Witnesses place martin ON TOP of zimmerman. These facts are what make it such obvious self defense. To deny these facts is just amazing in willfull denial of reality.
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:52 PM   #43843
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Yes there is, the distance of the shot along with the burn marks and speckling means it was a near contact shot, under 12 inches.
And if you are laying on your back with your arm fully extended angled upward and add 12 inches to that and then have someone stand over you, bent at the waist...still not possible...?
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:03 PM   #43844
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Not technically true, it means Martin was above and leaned over GZ, there's no proof he was still physically on top.
I imagine the ballistic evidence is fairly conclusive, although the prosecution may well have an expert who disagrees is they decide to argue that Martin was no longer in contact with Zimmerman. But powder loses energy extremely quickly. With the exact pistol, ammunition and clothing, degree of powder penetration should be fairly precise. If the prosecution can convince a jury that Martin was no longer in contact with Zimmerman, I'd say they have at least a manslaughter conviction locked up.

I've not looked at the ballistic evidence to form an opinion either way. But while I'm sure each side can find experts willing to argue their position, the majority of unaligned experts should be able to pin down the distance within a few inches. Coupled with angle of entry, internal trajectory, and blow-back on Zimmerman, the entire scenario should be knowable and reproducible. Of course, given the emotional weight this case carries and the potential danger to career if not life, there may be no unaligned experts. There certainly aren't many unaligned non-experts, including RL people who have some truly bizarre ideas about the case.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:08 PM   #43845
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And if you are laying on your back with your arm fully extended angled upward and add 12 inches to that and then have someone stand over you, bent at the waist...still not possible...?
Possible, not plausible.

Why would Martin be bending over Zimmerman at a complete 90 degree angle.

If you want to introduce alternate theories; you should have something that can back them up.

Martin bracketing Zimmerman, leaning on top of him; Zimmerman shooting from the hip within 12 inches of the body, matches up with the scenario and evidence much better than
Martin standing over Zimmerman; bending 90 degrees at the waist with Zimmerman fully extending his arm to shoot within 12" of the body.
Martin would also have to be twisting a little to ensure the angle of the shot.


I see two flaws.
One - why would Martin stand up and then bend over at the waist and twist the body?
Why would Zimmerman do a full extension to fire the weapon?

To do a full extent requires time that Martin should use to deflect and/or attempt control of the weapon when it is out in the open.
The other issue would be the location of the shell casing.
It will travel a greater distance when it is higher off the ground when the shot is taken.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:15 PM   #43846
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One - why would Martin stand up and then bend over at the waist and twist the body?
He was clearly attempting to help GZ up off the ground by pulling on his other hand.


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The other issue would be the location of the shell casing.
It will travel a greater distance when it is higher off the ground when the shot is taken.
Good point
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:18 PM   #43847
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I've not looked at the ballistic evidence to form an opinion either way.
This was something shared 3 days ago regarding that. It was done by a TV station local to the incident. Skip ahead to 12:14 for the bit where they talk about the ballistic evidence specifically; it's pretty interesting I think.

http://www.clickorlando.com/Zimmerma...b/-/index.html
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:23 PM   #43848
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werepossum comment on the blowback in Zimmerman's clothing would determine how far away Zimmerman's body was from the weapon.

A little would allow for the theory that the arm was extended.
A lot would indicate that the weapon was near the body when fired.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:36 PM   #43849
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werepossum comment on the blowback in Zimmerman's clothing would determine how far away Zimmerman's body was from the weapon.

A little would allow for the theory that the arm was extended.
A lot would indicate that the weapon was near the body when fired.
Good point, do we have that info in any of the reports?
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:13 PM   #43850
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Originally Posted by soundforbjt View Post
Good point, do we have that info in any of the reports?
I bet you hope we don't!
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