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Old 02-07-2013, 11:11 PM   #26
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I heard that Lincoln is doing good in theater's
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:20 PM   #27
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I watched the movie and thought it was good for what it is. I don't feel like reading a book about him because I don't care all that much.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:36 PM   #28
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So, here's a question: do you really think any of this matters? Honestly? Because the man has been dead for nearly 150 years. People got all riled up when they found out Jefferson got down with slaves on occasion... and now no one gives one single shit, because they realized he's been dead for over a century. Honestly, at this point, what Lincoln believed is completely irrelevant to national discourse about anything. So who gives one single solitary fuck? What difference does it make?
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:57 PM   #29
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So, here's a question: do you really think any of this matters? Honestly? Because the man has been dead for nearly 150 years. People got all riled up when they found out Jefferson got down with slaves on occasion... and now no one gives one single shit, because they realized he's been dead for over a century. Honestly, at this point, what Lincoln believed is completely irrelevant to national discourse about anything. So who gives one single solitary fuck? What difference does it make?
I'm sure the OP will be happy to explain or maybe his buddy will.

It's a good question though.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:37 AM   #30
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Another Anarchist LOL thread. Same stuff, different day...
He is a really sad individual. You'd think he'd be more concerned about the real world and his issues than his world of false history.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:54 AM   #31
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So, here's a question: do you really think any of this matters? Honestly? Because the man has been dead for nearly 150 years. People got all riled up when they found out Jefferson got down with slaves on occasion... and now no one gives one single shit, because they realized he's been dead for over a century. Honestly, at this point, what Lincoln believed is completely irrelevant to national discourse about anything. So who gives one single solitary fuck? What difference does it make?
The South are still fighting these Battles.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:37 AM   #32
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Lincoln used to rape slaves and when the slave had his baby if it wasn't white enough he killed them
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:05 AM   #33
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Another Anarchist LOL thread. Same stuff, different day...
This. His way of coping with reality must be coming up with these junior high essay questions.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:38 AM   #34
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I heard that Lincoln is doing good in theater's
Historically this is not true.

You guys are bad at playing along. I had to do it myself and now its lame.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:36 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Atomic Playboy View Post
So, here's a question: do you really think any of this matters? Honestly? Because the man has been dead for nearly 150 years. People got all riled up when they found out Jefferson got down with slaves on occasion... and now no one gives one single shit, because they realized he's been dead for over a century. Honestly, at this point, what Lincoln believed is completely irrelevant to national discourse about anything. So who gives one single solitary fuck? What difference does it make?
Pretty much this. It's akin to accusing Martin Luther King Jr. of cavorting with prostitutes. In the end, Lincoln did two massively good things - he kept the union together and ended slavery, which were each individually much more important than everything else he did or did not do. Not only might the evil of slavery lingered on for decades in a victorious South, but America would have been divided when the Western Powers needed a replacement for the Russians when they fell to civil war in World War I. And in World War II, our most important war ever (with the possible exception of beating back the Muslims or the Huns), at best America's great strength would have been divided and reduced, and at worst pitted against itself.

I'm not minimizing his actions which were sometimes illegal, but it's impossible to properly judge them except within the context of the times and events and now, they should be only of real interest to historians.
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Old 02-09-2013, 05:11 PM   #36
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I prefer to see the big picture, please tell me about this author and his qualifications and why you think he should be given more credence than all other historians before him.
Facts are facts regardless of how much ignorance you choose. If you really cared to know you wouldn't be taking a crap here and deflecting. But you are and therefore only one thing remains. You really don't care and that's fine. Just don't come in here mouthing off things that are untrue.

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Because I know a historian that frequently gives lectures at progressive think tanks and is a frequent guest at the ACLU and even did a few lectures for the new black panthers and has written articles for the new York daily and has done guest spots on msnbc. And she says something different than the OP.

So whome am I to believe?
Thats great so you have head-in-the-sand syndrome. Don't feel bad you're not the only one. If you want to limit your knowledge then you limit your ability to converse on a intellectual level. I am not surprised though as your opening post in this thread confirmed how naive you really are.

Since you have no intention of knowing all the facts there is no more discussion to be had. At this point its going to be you continuing to deflect and I value my time more than I do yours. Have a nice day.
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Old 02-09-2013, 05:20 PM   #37
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Pretty much this. It's akin to accusing Martin Luther King Jr. of cavorting with prostitutes. In the end, Lincoln did two massively good things - he kept the union together and ended slavery, which were each individually much more important than everything else he did or did not do. Not only might the evil of slavery lingered on for decades in a victorious South, but America would have been divided when the Western Powers needed a replacement for the Russians when they fell to civil war in World War I. And in World War II, our most important war ever (with the possible exception of beating back the Muslims or the Huns), at best America's great strength would have been divided and reduced, and at worst pitted against itself.

I'm not minimizing his actions which were sometimes illegal, but it's impossible to properly judge them except within the context of the times and events and now, they should be only of real interest to historians.
As I've already stated in this thread it means nothing now in the sense of immediate impact. What is happening here though is the same thing thats happening in public schools. "Its not important so lets not talk about it". You really support that? When I was in those same public schools the history teacher had a banner around the room and we recited this on a regular basis. The banner read "We must learn about our past to understand our future". Was that BS? Or is there something to the fact that history repeats itself? I realize many just don't care, okay, then why bother even posting?
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:20 PM   #38
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It means everything, yet today, and has immediate impact.

A President, or a Congress, or a Judicial system, aka a Government, will try and take power to themselves. They will grow, and grow, unchecked, or unfettered, by the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights.

To give up a single right, or to give Government power not granted by the constitution, is the bane of Democracy, and ultimately, as we are seeing, its undoing.

-John {fiddling, while Rome burns}
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:23 AM   #39
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It means everything, yet today, and has immediate impact.

A President, or a Congress, or a Judicial system, aka a Government, will try and take power to themselves. They will grow, and grow, unchecked, or unfettered, by the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights.

To give up a single right, or to give Government power not granted by the constitution, is the bane of Democracy, and ultimately, as we are seeing, its undoing.

-John {fiddling, while Rome burns}
Actually this isn't true at all. Even monarchies tend to reflect the will of the people over time. If the people want to be ruled by a big-government then they will be, no matter what some paper says; if they want individual freedom they will have it, no matter what some tyrant says.

The power struggles of the elite isn't about "do people get what they want" they are about "who gets the to exploit what the people want".

Rome isn't burning; it's just following the demographic trends.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:31 AM   #40
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Facts are facts regardless of how much ignorance you choose. If you really cared to know you wouldn't be taking a crap here and deflecting. But you are and therefore only one thing remains. You really don't care and that's fine. Just don't come in here mouthing off things that are untrue.



Thats great so you have head-in-the-sand syndrome. Don't feel bad you're not the only one. If you want to limit your knowledge then you limit your ability to converse on a intellectual level. I am not surprised though as your opening post in this thread confirmed how naive you really are.

Since you have no intention of knowing all the facts there is no more discussion to be had. At this point its going to be you continuing to deflect and I value my time more than I do yours. Have a nice day.
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As I've already stated in this thread it means nothing now in the sense of immediate impact. What is happening here though is the same thing thats happening in public schools. "Its not important so lets not talk about it". You really support that? When I was in those same public schools the history teacher had a banner around the room and we recited this on a regular basis. The banner read "We must learn about our past to understand our future". Was that BS? Or is there something to the fact that history repeats itself? I realize many just don't care, okay, then why bother even posting?


So basically if we don't agree with you then our head is in the sand? Got it.

I asked you a pretty simple question and it appears you are the one deflecting.


Have you ever heard of the term projecting? No need to look it up if you haven't, your posts are perfect examples of it.


And a good day to you too
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:36 PM   #41
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It's aggravating to see how many people think history doesn't matter. And then we get to see the shallow political thinking of people who believe it... simplistic and ignorant. Then we even get to see the crap outcomes of a society that thinks it. History's importance in helping to discover who we are, why things are, what is good and bad, and where we are going is so self-evident I can't believe anyone intelligent would question the importance of understanding history.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:23 PM   #42
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_DiLorenzo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_the_South

History matters. Thomas DiLorenzo has a history.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:41 PM   #43
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I'm sure it doesn't matter to the OP or his supporters. I'm sure if this book was written by rachael maddow they would have been just as gung ho about it./s
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:25 AM   #44
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Where did OP go?
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:03 AM   #45
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Where did OP go?
his normal hit and run, expect another ridiculous post in a few hours.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:11 AM   #46
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Where did OP go?
Checking out to see if he got accepted in the new P&N "civility" forum experiment.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:00 AM   #47
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Lincoln used to rape slaves and when the slave had his baby if it wasn't white enough he killed them
I thought he ate them like some demon?
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If there was a train of logic, yours derailed about 7 stations back and you just hopped onto the tracks and started running down them in place of the train.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:18 AM   #48
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Even in 1776 they still had endentured servants. There was no welfare from the govt so freedom was a very thin and elusive thing. So are you making an argument in favor of slavery and presecution and openly selling human beings for profit?

We just want to know what exactly you are for and against?

Keep in mind that Lincoln was a politician and his public stance for election and his private beliefs may have been 2 different things. I could see that Lincoln may have opposed slavery but had to support the status quo to get elected as president. Then when the southern slave states revolted in open rebellion the president had justification to put down the rebellion in a civil war. Once the southern states were in rebellion, they had no say in the government.

This is how history has been recorded. However, up to this point in time the States had more power and the state was more important than the Union. Some people have voiced the opinion that the Union did not have the right to start the war, but they forced their will on the southern states. I think this was caused by the southerners and northerners having a completely different way of life. However the north needed the south as much as the south needed the north so one side prevailed in the conflict. When both sides in a conflict are willing to rule by force, only one side can win. The South wanted to force their will upon the North as much as the Union wanted to force the South to their will. Only one side could prevail.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:21 PM   #49
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In the end, Lincoln did two massively good things - he kept the union together and ended slavery,
While endorsing the genocide of the native people.....

Talking about the Huns.??..
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:50 PM   #50
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As I've already stated in this thread it means nothing now in the sense of immediate impact. What is happening here though is the same thing thats happening in public schools. "Its not important so lets not talk about it". You really support that? When I was in those same public schools the history teacher had a banner around the room and we recited this on a regular basis. The banner read "We must learn about our past to understand our future". Was that BS? Or is there something to the fact that history repeats itself? I realize many just don't care, okay, then why bother even posting?
Point taken. I'm all in favor of pointing out the things that Lincoln did that were un-Constitutional and/or illegal, as well as discussing the positions he held which are repugnant to modern man as long as that discussion isn't judging him by modern sensibilities. But it's worth remembering those words penned by Jim Steinman: "Every hero was once, every villain was once, just a boy with a bad attitude." Neither great deeds nor terrible deeds are often done by saints, and for all his warts Lincoln accomplished more to end slavery than did the vocal abolitionists.

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Even in 1776 they still had endentured servants. There was no welfare from the govt so freedom was a very thin and elusive thing. So are you making an argument in favor of slavery and presecution and openly selling human beings for profit?

We just want to know what exactly you are for and against?

Keep in mind that Lincoln was a politician and his public stance for election and his private beliefs may have been 2 different things. I could see that Lincoln may have opposed slavery but had to support the status quo to get elected as president. Then when the southern slave states revolted in open rebellion the president had justification to put down the rebellion in a civil war. Once the southern states were in rebellion, they had no say in the government.

This is how history has been recorded. However, up to this point in time the States had more power and the state was more important than the Union. Some people have voiced the opinion that the Union did not have the right to start the war, but they forced their will on the southern states. I think this was caused by the southerners and northerners having a completely different way of life. However the north needed the south as much as the south needed the north so one side prevailed in the conflict. When both sides in a conflict are willing to rule by force, only one side can win. The South wanted to force their will upon the North as much as the Union wanted to force the South to their will. Only one side could prevail.
You may well be correct about Lincoln the politician; I suspect hypocrisy has been around as long as elective politics. I think you're wrong about the South though; they only wanted to live according to their own will, not to force the North into living the same. I still think the South was wrong, however, on two fronts. First, I see nothing in the Constitution that covers secession, so once you're in you're in for the life of the union. And more importantly, slavery is an abomination; no one fighting for the right to keep human beings as property can ever hold the moral high ground. Slavery directly goes against our Constitution's preamble - if all men are created equal then obviously some of them cannot be born as property - and it's a blot on our national character that a nation founded on such lofty principles took a hundred years to do more than pay lip service to its own ideals and then another hundred years to really begin implementing it at a government level.

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While endorsing the genocide of the native people.....

Talking about the Huns.??..
That's certainly a valid point, but Lincoln deserves to be judged within his culture as a whole. That he (along with the huge majority of his contemporaries) did not live up to modern morality does not mean that they were not good people, merely not good enough to rise above their environment. Very few of us are, and of those few not many of us will do truly important things.
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