Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Social > Politics and News

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Home and Garden
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals with Free Stuff/Contests
· Black Friday 2014
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-02-2013, 03:07 PM   #101
ShintaiDK
Lifer
 
ShintaiDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 11,322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesKozierok View Post
You're talking about a government takeover of the industry. That is not any sort of capitalism, sorry.
Private hospitals can run along with public. Its just that the public accounts for the wast majority to secure that healthcare doesnt turn into a milking game, like it is in the US.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare
Competition is good at driving the pace of innovation, but it is an inefficient mechanism (R&D expenditures summed across a given industry) for generating the innovation.
ShintaiDK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 03:34 PM   #102
Hayabusa Rider
Elite Member
 
Hayabusa Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 38,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShintaiDK View Post
Whats your actual point? Obama just wanted universal healthcare, thats simply just a tiny step in the right direction. But its nothing more than a step forward in a marathon race.

Rome wasnt build in one day.
I made my point. There should never have been ANY legislation in advance of acquiring comprehensive knowledge.

You belong to the first group and use talking point 5.
Hayabusa Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 03:36 PM   #103
tcG
Golden Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShintaiDK View Post
Let me ask you another way. Why do americans pay roughly twice as much for healthcare as others? Because you rank very low in terms of quality. So its not because its better.

So whats the reason, besides a very inefficient healthcare system in terms of performance/$.

Community hospitals alone in 2010 had a 52.9B$ profit.

When I see a chart like this, my alarm bells ring:


Or in terms of GDP if you wish:
The U.S. healthcare system is a house in the dead of winter with a broken fireplace. Smoke is vented into the rest of the house, the chimney is clogged, and there are dangerous buttresses supporting the brick. The European healthcare system removes the fireplace altogether. Sure you fixed the problems, but now you don't have a fireplace. The U.S. healthcare system is terrible, perhaps healthcare in Denmark is a little less terrible. The point is that they are both way too expensive, both are dominated by government and corporations which through regulatory bodies promote one kind of "treat the symptom" medicine (reducing choice), and both enrich a few lobbyist insiders (big pharma/agribusiness, research institutes) at the expense of the health and pocketbooks of everybody else.

Freedom means the ability to choose what kind of health care I want, not be forced to join a system. This is the problem with governments enforcing values (in this case, allopathic medicine), whether these values are moral or scientific - eventually these values, even if established with the best of intentions, get corrupted. Maybe the European system does result in healthcare that is tolerably cheap (I still don't think it would be cheaper than a truly free market alternative). That's nice, but you have a small group of people controlling the healthcare of an entire population, financed by taking the money from the population by force. That's not the recipe for a free society.

[Edited for better analogy]

Last edited by tcG; 02-02-2013 at 04:06 PM.
tcG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 04:00 PM   #104
blankslate
Diamond Member
 
blankslate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Never caught dead in the South
Posts: 5,250
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayabusa Rider View Post
I made my point. There should never have been ANY legislation in advance of acquiring comprehensive knowledge. You belong to the first group and use talking point 5.
You forget about group 6 who point out very real and severe problems with the U.S. Health Care system

1. There are many people who die who might otherwise have lived if health issues were caught earlier on.
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...alth-coverage/

I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who is credited with the quote about An ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.



2. Health care costs are one of the highest if not the highest causes of bankruptcy in the U.S.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/h...e?_s=PM:HEALTH

Think about what people do as the costs start mounting up beyond their ability to pay. One thing that comes to mind is maxing out credit. Therefore everyone else who uses credit ends up paying more fees to cover people who are unfortunate enough to get sick enough to need to pay for their health care bills by maxing out their credit.

These are however related to number 5 as the question would likely come up when discussing bankruptcies and deaths. How is it that other rich countries largely avoid the previously mentioned problems with U.S. health care listed above?
__________________
"Using the bible to support your opinion is like using a Krispy Kreme menu to pass a Biology test. " ~ Random Youtube commentor

Dropkick Murphys - Workers Song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQfGTDyjVSE

Last edited by blankslate; 02-02-2013 at 04:03 PM.
blankslate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 04:29 PM   #105
Hayabusa Rider
Elite Member
 
Hayabusa Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 38,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blankslate View Post
You forget about group 6 who point out very real and severe problems with the U.S. Health Care system

1. There are many people who die who might otherwise have lived if health issues were caught earlier on.
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...alth-coverage/

I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who is credited with the quote about An ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.



2. Health care costs are one of the highest if not the highest causes of bankruptcy in the U.S.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/h...e?_s=PM:HEALTH

Think about what people do as the costs start mounting up beyond their ability to pay. One thing that comes to mind is maxing out credit. Therefore everyone else who uses credit ends up paying more fees to cover people who are unfortunate enough to get sick enough to need to pay for their health care bills by maxing out their credit.

These are however related to number 5 as the question would likely come up when discussing bankruptcies and deaths. How is it that other rich countries largely avoid the previously mentioned problems with U.S. health care listed above?
So where did I say do nothing? Do you have a real world grounded understanding of the complexities? Do you have answers based on factual determination of all the significant
factors? Well I have been at this for a couple decades I don't have all the answers, yet in one post I've given a better foundation for sound reform than a few years, some thousands of pages of legislation and 2/3 of the branches of government. Reform? Heck yes! Stupid? Hell no!
Hayabusa Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 04:40 PM   #106
eskimospy
Lifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 33,928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayabusa Rider View Post
So where did I say do nothing? Do you have a real world grounded understanding of the complexities? Do you have answers based on factual determination of all the significant
factors? Well I have been at this for a couple decades I don't have all the answers, yet in one post I've given a better foundation for sound reform than a few years, some thousands of pages of legislation and 2/3 of the branches of government. Reform? Heck yes! Stupid? Hell no!
No, it was just vapid bloviating. You realized the weakness of your argument by trying to defuse the counter-argument that...well...people had been doing exactly the sorts of research you just said you wanted for decades. This legislation was the result of that research. (among other things)

I'm sorry if you don't like the results of that research but it reality doesn't allow you to wish away inconvenient facts.
eskimospy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 05:54 PM   #107
Hayabusa Rider
Elite Member
 
Hayabusa Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 38,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eskimospy View Post
No, it was just vapid bloviating. You realized the weakness of your argument by trying to defuse the counter-argument that...well...people had been doing exactly the sorts of research you just said you wanted for decades. This legislation was the result of that research. (among other things)

I'm sorry if you don't like the results of that research but it reality doesn't allow you to wish away inconvenient facts.
Yeah, you were on the list too. You were unable to show the depth and kind of unbiased research devoted to true reform.

So what were the say, three top needs of healthcare proper and how are they best addressed. Thats sure to be on your list.

What you did was apologize away, insisting that all is known by the politicians. You defended Obamacare against all by tooth and claw, cited piecemeal studies, and crowed when you won. Congratulations, you got a pos born of ignorance, hubris and partisan hacks. Asking for real investigation pissed you off to no end because your masters didn't like it, and their thralls who haven't done a days work in the field but read the internet, the source of all knowledge, clearly know everything they have no knowledge of.

So, show us those three answers, and three substantial means to enhance the patient/provider experience, who makes the decisions regarding the limits of health care and who decides, and by what means was that consensus determined. Thats some easy things. No politically or partisan ideological think tank references please. Just those dedicated collaborative research you say is out there and the legal language they produced.

I think it irks that someone wants what I do regarding the single most complex and important task to ever be given to our government. You have a strong authoritarian streak and I suspect not be able to find the answers, defend your complete lack of understanding, and defend purely political and partisan means the as the only allowed approach to what what needs to be removed as far from that as possible. I want the best possible solution. We could have concluded the investigations and had a solid, comprehensive blueprint taking in all sorts of contingencies and with a broad scope. Instead you chose the path of politics and ignorance.

You fear that your politicians will lose all control and reject that which at worst would reaffirm what you believe, and because of a dedicated far reaching collaborative project existing for purpose may be far superior. Looking frightens you. That's what really gets you. Loss of authoritarian privilege.
Hayabusa Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 05:55 PM   #108
piasabird
Lifer
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,269
Default

I thought O'bammacare was written by Pelosi and her cronies?? When did the Republicans get any control over the process. The democrats had the house, the senate, and the whitehouse, and they had to bribe elected officials to get it to pass. Now you want to say it is the Republicans fault? Are you on Drugs?
__________________
Asus Memo Pad 7 HD. Quad Core Tablet.
piasabird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 06:08 PM   #109
eskimospy
Lifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 33,928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayabusa Rider View Post
Yeah, you were on the list too. You were unable to show the depth and kind of unbiased research devoted to true reform.

So what were the say, three top needs of healthcare proper and how are they best addressed. Thats sure to be on your list.

What you did was apologize away, insisting that all is known by the politicians. You defended Obamacare against all by tooth and claw, cited piecemeal studies, and crowed when you won. Congratulations, you got a pos born of ignorance, hubris and partisan hacks. Asking for real investigation pissed you off to no end because your masters didn't like it, and their thralls who haven't done a days work in the field but read the internet, the source of all knowledge, clearly know everything they have no knowledge of.

So, show us those three answers, and three substantial means to enhance the patient/provider experience, who makes the decisions regarding the limits of health care and who decides, and by what means was that consensus determined. Thats some easy things. No politically or partisan ideological think tank references please. Just those dedicated collaborative research you say is out there and the legal language they produced.

I think it irks that someone wants what I do regarding the single most complex and important task to ever be given to our government. You have a strong authoritarian streak and I suspect not be able to find the answers, defend your complete lack of understanding, and defend purely political and partisan means the as the only allowed approach to what what needs to be removed as far from that as possible. I want the best possible solution. We could have concluded the investigations and had a solid, comprehensive blueprint taking in all sorts of contingencies and with a broad scope. Instead you chose the path of politics and ignorance.

You fear that your politicians will lose all control and reject that which at worst would reaffirm what you believe, and because of a dedicated far reaching collaborative project existing for purpose may be far superior. Looking frightens you. That's what really gets you. Loss of authoritarian privilege.
Lol. My calling you out for your vacuous ranting is actually just a symptom of my psychological need to defend authoritarianism. Let me repeat: lol. Don't be angry that I keep calling you out on this, improve your argument and I will stop.

Even a cursory review of the literature will show you hundreds if not THOUSANDS of studies on exactly what you're looking for. For starters just look at the work the RAND Corporation alone has done on health care reform. http://www.rand.org/topics/health-and-health-care.html Just in this section alone they reference nearly 5,000 studies on various aspects on the health system. These range from specific issues to the costs and implementation difficulties of insurance expansion, to the effect of subsidies and crowding out, and more. That's just one drop in the bucket. I could link you for days. But hey, we really need to get your magic blue ribbon committee together and have everyone just sit down and talk it out, because that's what we were missing all along.

Your position was initially charmingly naive. It's gotten really boring at this point. None are so blind as those who will not see.
eskimospy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 06:48 PM   #110
Charles Kozierok
Elite Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,762
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShintaiDK View Post
Private hospitals can run along with public. Its just that the public accounts for the wast majority to secure that healthcare doesnt turn into a milking game, like it is in the US.
You said we should "nationalize the healthcare, and I mean hospitals too."

And there are arguments in favor of doing so. But saying that in the same paragraph as "its amazing how bad americans are at capitalism" means either that "capitalism" means something very different in Denmark than it does in the rest of the world, or you don't understand what capitalism is.

And by the way, while we certainly have lots of problems, don't get too high on your high horse. It's easy to spend on social programs when you aren't trying to be the world's policeman (something I think we do too much of, but that many nations are happy to leave to the US to deal with).

The US is also a leader in healthcare innovation and research. If someone has a serious medical issue and they need the best, it's most likely they are coming here, not Denmark. It's easy to have an efficient healthcare system when you're leaving it to other countries to finance the development of new drugs and procedures.
__________________
"Of those who say nothing, few are silent." -- Thomas Neill
Charles Kozierok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 06:53 PM   #111
eskimospy
Lifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 33,928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesKozierok View Post
You said we should "nationalize the healthcare, and I mean hospitals too."

And there are arguments in favor of doing so. But saying that in the same paragraph as "its amazing how bad americans are at capitalism" means either that "capitalism" means something very different in Denmark than it does in the rest of the world, or you don't understand what capitalism is.

And by the way, while we certainly have lots of problems, don't get too high on your high horse. It's easy to spend on social programs when you aren't trying to be the world's policeman (something I think we do too much of, but that many nations are happy to leave to the US to deal with).

The US is also a leader in healthcare innovation and research. If someone has a serious medical issue and they need the best, it's most likely they are coming here, not Denmark. It's easy to have an efficient healthcare system when you're leaving it to other countries to finance the development of new drugs and procedures.
I've never understood the 'US innovation' argument. If we want to fund innovation why not just do it directly instead of throwing gobs of money at a system in the hopes that some of it goes back into R&D?
eskimospy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 06:56 PM   #112
Charles Kozierok
Elite Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,762
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eskimospy View Post
I've never understood the 'US innovation' argument. If we want to fund innovation why not just do it directly instead of throwing gobs of money at a system in the hopes that some of it goes back into R&D?
I'm not defending the way we fund medical research. I'm saying that it should be remembered. Also, that it's easy for people from small countries like Denmark to sit over there and sneer at us when they are in many ways free riders on the world stage.

Used to especially drive me crazy when I lived in Canada.
__________________
"Of those who say nothing, few are silent." -- Thomas Neill
Charles Kozierok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 06:59 PM   #113
abaez
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,152
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesKozierok View Post
In general, if a 67-year-old person was able-bodied most of his life, and was given the choice to either pay into an insurance plan or go without and spend the money on something else, then he should have the choice of paying the full cost of any treatment out of pocket, or going without treatment.

If he dies, well, everyone has to die sometime. He made his choices.

In cases of true emergencies, where the patient is unstable, unconscious and at risk of dying, it's impractical and unreasonable to start asking for payment information. So yes, the 67-year-old having a heart attack should be treated. But then he should pay the full cost of that treatment.
And what if he has no money? His SS check is his only income. He is in debt the rest of his life?
abaez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 07:01 PM   #114
eskimospy
Lifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 33,928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesKozierok View Post
I'm not defending the way we fund medical research. I'm saying that it should be remembered. Also, that it's easy for people from small countries like Denmark to sit over there and sneer at us when they are in many ways free riders on the world stage.

Used to especially drive me crazy when I lived in Canada.
Free riders in what way other than R&D? (if we're granting that) And if I remember right, R&D doesn't actually comprise that much of our health care sector expenditures.
eskimospy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 07:19 PM   #115
Hayabusa Rider
Elite Member
 
Hayabusa Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 38,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eskimospy View Post
Lol. My calling you out for your vacuous ranting is actually just a symptom of my psychological need to defend authoritarianism. Let me repeat: lol. Don't be angry that I keep calling you out on this, improve your argument and I will stop.

Even a cursory review of the literature will show you hundreds if not THOUSANDS of studies on exactly what you're looking for. For starters just look at the work the RAND Corporation alone has done on health care reform. http://www.rand.org/topics/health-and-health-care.html Just in this section alone they reference nearly 5,000 studies on various aspects on the health system. These range from specific issues to the costs and implementation difficulties of insurance expansion, to the effect of subsidies and crowding out, and more. That's just one drop in the bucket. I could link you for days. But hey, we really need to get your magic blue ribbon committee together and have everyone just sit down and talk it out, because that's what we were missing all along.

Your position was initially charmingly naive. It's gotten really boring at this point. None are so blind as those who will not see.
You have a beam in your eye I see.

So answer my basic questions? Na.

5000 uncoordinated studies. Oh, you fail to note the process I outlined.

How many months is Congress going to spend on this sole issue? Oh, yeah. None. You want to explain the mechanism by which they'll learn what's needed? Not some pageboy or staffer doing some lit search. Demonstrate that they will ask the right questions, understand the issues in context. That they'll cite whatever data and not use any political bias in calling for testimony. That a bunch of amateurs working part time will produce the quality of solutions that those who are far superior working together for a dedicated purpose is as good?
Hayabusa Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 07:29 PM   #116
Charles Kozierok
Elite Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,762
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abaez View Post
And what if he has no money? His SS check is his only income. He is in debt the rest of his life?
If he had been paying into insurance all along, then he'd be covered. I'm pretty sure there are mechanisms built into the system to assist those with financial difficulties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eskimospy View Post
Free riders in what way other than R&D? (if we're granting that) And if I remember right, R&D doesn't actually comprise that much of our health care sector expenditures.
You're trying to make a general argument out of what was a simple observation. I'm not defending our mess of a health care system. I'm saying that it annoys me when people mock it as a joke when, while overpriced, it most certainly is not.

As I said, there's a place that people flock to when they need the very best care, and it's here. Our problem is that we don't provide good enough basic care for everyone else.
__________________
"Of those who say nothing, few are silent." -- Thomas Neill
Charles Kozierok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 08:00 PM   #117
ElFenix
Elite Member
Super Moderator
Off Topic
 
ElFenix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 94,220
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eskimospy View Post
Free riders in what way other than R&D? (if we're granting that) And if I remember right, R&D doesn't actually comprise that much of our health care sector expenditures.
Its not r&d so much as it is recoupment and profit. Heres nothing stopping the rest of the world from setting up gov r&d and they're not doing it. So, yeah free riders.
__________________
I killed and ate the Fun Mod with some jellybeans and a little Chianti.

AnandTech Mean Moderator
ElFenix is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 09:16 PM   #118
shadow9d9
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 8,133
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by piasabird View Post
I thought O'bammacare was written by Pelosi and her cronies?? When did the Republicans get any control over the process. The democrats had the house, the senate, and the whitehouse, and they had to bribe elected officials to get it to pass. Now you want to say it is the Republicans fault? Are you on Drugs?
They only had the presidency and the House. The senate did not have fillibuster proof majority for more than the first 6 months.

It was written by the Heritage Foundation and Republicans submitted 100 amendments, which were included. They could have participated more in the process, but they decided to continue their record breaking fillibustering instead. That was their choice.

You can't rewrite history. The Democrats did not have the 60 votes required to "control" the Senate.. which is why the plan that was initially written by a republican thinktank got watered down even further in order to pass the Senate.
shadow9d9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2013, 09:57 PM   #119
JEDIYoda
Lifer
 
JEDIYoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Israeli side
Posts: 21,640
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShintaiDK View Post
A weak government and lack of regulation is why you got expensive crappy healthcare, bad slow internet, shitty trash food and a financial sector that can put the entire country in danger.
Europe ...Demark are hardly on the cutting edge of anything medical....

When somebody who is a leader of a country or an important individual needs medical care....I don`t see them flocking to Denmark...
__________________
JohnOfSheffield -- That said, Palestine will exist when they understand that Israel exists, it's that blatantly simple!
JEDIYoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 12:31 AM   #120
shira
Diamond Member
 
shira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayabusa Rider View Post
You have a beam in your eye I see.

So answer my basic questions? Na.

5000 uncoordinated studies. Oh, you fail to note the process I outlined.

How many months is Congress going to spend on this sole issue? Oh, yeah. None. You want to explain the mechanism by which they'll learn what's needed? Not some pageboy or staffer doing some lit search. Demonstrate that they will ask the right questions, understand the issues in context. That they'll cite whatever data and not use any political bias in calling for testimony. That a bunch of amateurs working part time will produce the quality of solutions that those who are far superior working together for a dedicated purpose is as good?
The problem with your approach is that the American health care system has been studied to death for decades, but nothing substantive had been done to change our horribly flawed system. And if we followed your approach, we'd spend decades more meeting and talking and studying and accomplishing exactly nothing. Because exactly like Climate Change, ideologues on both sides will read into any study result exactly what their biases tell them to see, and all we'd have is more paralysis.

The reason I strongly supported the adoption of Obamacare is that it's a significant change from our old way of doing health care business. Flawed? You bet. But it will shake things up. As we learn its flaws, changes will be made. But at least it's a change from the status quo, which is horrible. Once people get used to the benefits of Obamacare, even the most extreme right-wingers aren't going to be able to cancel it.

We're on the road to a different place now, and things can only get better. 10 or 15 years from now, we'll look back at American health care pre-Obamacare and we'll shake our heads in disbelief that we didn't start making changes sooner.
shira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 05:20 AM   #121
ivwshane
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 8,067
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShintaiDK View Post
Whats your actual point? Obama just wanted universal healthcare, thats simply just a tiny step in the right direction. But its nothing more than a step forward in a marathon race.

Rome wasnt build in one day.
His point was that Obamacare did just what he asked which was to have a board of people look at and analyze the problems we face with healthcare and to find better solutions. I think the republicans called it a "death panel".


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indep...Advisory_Board
__________________
System Specs
ivwshane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 07:35 AM   #122
ShintaiDK
Lifer
 
ShintaiDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 11,322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesKozierok View Post
I'm not defending the way we fund medical research. I'm saying that it should be remembered. Also, that it's easy for people from small countries like Denmark to sit over there and sneer at us when they are in many ways free riders on the world stage.

Used to especially drive me crazy when I lived in Canada.
Uhm, Denmark uses alot of public spending on research. So perhaps you need some documenation now. Not to mention Denmark got 2 funding methods, one national and one via the EU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElFenix View Post
Its not r&d so much as it is recoupment and profit. Heres nothing stopping the rest of the world from setting up gov r&d and they're not doing it. So, yeah free riders.

The "rest of the world" is exactly doing that. Since companies only do R&D in profitable products. That means products you need to use again and again. Specially socalled base research gets heavily funded by governments.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare
Competition is good at driving the pace of innovation, but it is an inefficient mechanism (R&D expenditures summed across a given industry) for generating the innovation.

Last edited by ShintaiDK; 02-03-2013 at 07:38 AM.
ShintaiDK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 07:45 AM   #123
ShintaiDK
Lifer
 
ShintaiDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 11,322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEDIYoda View Post
Europe ...Demark are hardly on the cutting edge of anything medical....

When somebody who is a leader of a country or an important individual needs medical care....I don`t see them flocking to Denmark...
Neither is the US. Its just a matter of how far you can pay yourself in front of the queue.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare
Competition is good at driving the pace of innovation, but it is an inefficient mechanism (R&D expenditures summed across a given industry) for generating the innovation.
ShintaiDK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 10:54 AM   #124
Incorruptible
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,536
Default

Just another reason why we need smaller government and to stop this BS from obama and his obamacare
Incorruptible is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 11:48 AM   #125
Charles Kozierok
Elite Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,762
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShintaiDK View Post
Uhm, Denmark uses alot of public spending on research.
Yeah, right.

This is a few years old, but I don't see any reason why things would have changed dramatically in the last few years:

Quote:
When it comes to medical innovation, the United States is the world leader. In the last 10 years, for instance, 12 Nobel Prizes in medicine have gone to American-born scientists working in the United States, 3 have gone to foreign-born scientists working in the United States, and just 7 have gone to researchers outside the country.

The six most important medical innovations of the last 25 years, according to a 2001 poll of physicians, were magnetic resonance imaging and computed tomography (CT scan); ACE inhibitors, used in the treatment of hypertension and congestive heart failure; balloon angioplasty; statins to lower cholesterol levels; mammography; and coronary artery bypass grafts. Balloon angioplasty came from Europe, four innovations on the list were developed in American hospitals or by American companies (although statins were based on earlier Japanese research), and mammography was first developed in Germany and then improved in the United States. Even when the initial research is done overseas, the American system leads in converting new ideas into workable commercial technologies.


In real terms, spending on American biomedical research has doubled since 1994. By 2003, spending was up to $94.3 billion (there is no comparable number for Europe), with 57 percent of that coming from private industry. The National Institutes of Healthís current annual research budget is $28 billion, All European Union governments, in contrast, spent $3.7 billion in 2000, and since that time, Europe has not narrowed the research and development gap. America spends more on research and development over all and on drugs in particular, even though the United States has a smaller population than the core European Union countries. From 1989 to 2002, four times as much money was invested in private biotechnology companies in America than in Europe.
__________________
"Of those who say nothing, few are silent." -- Thomas Neill
Charles Kozierok is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.