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Old 02-01-2013, 07:27 PM   #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tviceman View Post
hopefully a Geforce-based GK110 can get that 50-60% performance improvement and stay <= 250 watts. I think it's possible.
Still though, $900 is outrageous under any circumstance, IMO.
Ya, I agree with your entire post. Even though people bring comparison of high-end headphones, and other hobbies, etc. GPUs are totally different because they have a limited shelf-life. If you drop $1-2K on high-end headphones or an amp, they don't go "obsolete" in 3 years. They will still sound stellar every single day for 10 years. You can now get an HD7850 for $150-160 that with a 10 min overclock will get you GTX580 level of performance. GTX580 was $500 just 2 years ago. Comparing the Titan to GTX690 misses the point because GTX690's level of performance should be more affordable now. Using this logic, GTX680 could have cost 35% more than GTX580 because it offered 35% more performance. If NV keeps doing this, soon they'll condition PC enthusiasts to believe that a high-end GPU's normal price is $900-1000. Even cards like GTX590/HD6990 were $700-750.

If we expect HD8970 to be 15-20% faster than HD7970GE, GK114 (GTX780) shouldn't be far behind. I think NV locked voltage control on GK104 so that GTX780's 20% increase looks good. Also, I expect GTX780's voltage control to be locked because then NV could charge a large premium for the Titan and 780 won't be able to touch it. Delaying GTX780 to June or later would allow NV to sell Titan at the highest prices to excited PC enthusiasts who are ready to spend $900-$1,000 on flagship GPUs after NV conditioned them with $1,000 GTX690 in 2012. I must say I am very impressed with NV's marketing. Rumors of GTX700 being postponed but Titan still on track would allow the Titan to look much faster than it is since it'll be compared to the 680 not 780. Interesting marketing game NV is playing. It's like a copy of Apple's handbook 101. The best part is NV managed to disguise it all by somehow making us gamers think it was AMD that raised prices. All AMD did is bring HD7970 back to ATI's historical levels. That was a steep price increase from HD4870/4890/5870/6970 days but not unexpected given AMD's dire financial situation, struggling to maintain 15% gross margins. What NV is doing is shifting price levels entirely into stratosphere, rumoured to be selling a 550mm2 die for $900, while reporting > 50% gross margin on its earnings calls. Essentially they are asking us to absorb higher 28nm wafer costs. No thanks. GPU tech is also supposed to get cheaper for a given level of performance or faster at a similar price level. Titan at $900 does not deliver on either, which sounds like it's overpriced on the general price/performance tech curve. I guess I am sitting still until 20nm Maxwell / HD9000 series gives Titan's performance for $499.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:48 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by RussianSensation View Post
If we expect HD8970 to be 15-20% faster than HD7970GE, GK114 (GTX780) shouldn't be far behind. I think NV locked voltage control on GK104 so that GTX780's 20% increase looks good. Also, I expect GTX780's voltage control to be locked because then NV could charge a large premium for the Titan and 780 won't be able to touch it.
Can you show me a 7950 which is as fast as a 7970GHz?

Quote:
I must say I am very impressed with NV's marketing. It's like a copy of Apple's handbook 101. The best part is NV managed to disguise it all by somehow making us gamers think it was AMD that raised prices. All AMD did is bring HD7970 back to ATI's historical levels. That was a steep price increase from HD4870/4890/5870/6970 days but not unexpected given AMD's dire financial situation, struggling to maintain 15% gross margins.
Wait, you really tell us that AMD did not increase the price of their gpus over the previous generation?

Quote:
What NV is doing is shifting price levels entirely into stratosphere, selling a 550mm2 die for $900, while smiling with a > 50% gross margin. Essentially they are asking us to absorb higher 28nm wafer costs. No thanks. GPU tech is also supposed to get cheaper for a given level of performance or faster at a similar price level. Titan at $900 does not deliver on either, which sounds like it's overpriced on the general price/performance tech curve. I see the game they are playing. I am sitting still until 20nm Maxwell gives Titan's performance for $499.
Okay, now i'm confused:
AMD was allowed to rise the prices because they got back to their "historical levels" but when nVidia is doing the same it's a "no thanks"?

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Old 02-01-2013, 08:05 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by boxleitnerb View Post
It's a fake, it's an overclocked GTX690. Someone was able to partially remove the black stuff:

I thought it was the second coming of 8800 GTX. Wasn't a single 8800 GTX roughly 30~40% faster than 7800 GTX in SLI ?
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:43 PM   #454
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sorry guys but who the fuck needs 6GB VRAM ? even in sli :/ better make it with 3/4 GB Vram and 150-200$ cheaper ....
DDR5 isn't that expensive. More is just a reason to raise the price. Generally, disproportionately.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:53 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by tviceman View Post
Just like all the Fermi refreshed parts demonstrated improved perf/watt over there original counterparts, I think GK110's perf/watt efficiency would be fairly compared to Kepler's refreshed parts since it came out last and node improvements may have occured since GK104's tape out. With hotclocks gone and much of GK110's compute-focused transistors fused off (or dormant), hopefully a Geforce-based GK110 can get that 50-60% performance improvement and stay <= 250 watts. I think it's possible.

Still though, $900 is outrageous under any circumstance, IMO. An hd8970 (non-oem) with a 15-20% speed bump over the current 7970GE should make it about (give or take 5%) the same performance delta between the two as the hd6970 and gtx580 had between each other. Even if AMD comes out with the same $550 initial MSRP that the hd7970 had, $900 would be a laughing joke at that point and would force Nvidia into another GTX280 price cut situation.
GK104 isn't broken like GF100 was. Plus, much of the efficiency improvement with Fermi was better software power management. When, for example, the settings that throttled Furmark were bypassed the power savings weren't as dramatic.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:03 PM   #456
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Can you show me a 7950 which is as fast as a 7970GHz?
HD7950 with voltage control has no problem beating an HD7970GE. Once both the 7970GE and HD7950 are overclocked to the max, the performance difference between them is minimal. This is why many enthusiasts this generation bought the 7950 over 7970s.
http://www.legionhardware.com/articl..._clock,13.html

If NV allowed voltage control on the GTX680, people might have been able to hit 1350-1400mhz on air with cards like the Asus DirectCUII or GTX680 Lightning. All NV needs to do now is bump the voltage to 1.25-1.27V and launch a 1350mhz GK114 and there you get a nice performance bump that a GTX680 can't touch without a volt-mod. Neutering voltage control on GK104 makes a lot of sense strategically, especially after NV decided to charge $100 premium for a mere 7-8% performance increase from a 670 to a 680. This is the exact opposite of what AMD lets you do. Get an HD6950 and unlock it and OC to 6970; get an $280 HD7950 and overclock it to 1200mhz to come within 5-6% of $420 HD7970GE OC. AMD gives enthusiasts freedom to get as much free performance as possible within reasonable limits, while NV blocked it out. This is a complete reversal of the legendary GTX460/470 OC.

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Wait, you really tell us that AMD did not increase the price of their gpus over the previous generation?
What? I just said AMD did increase it but to ATI's historical levels. ATI used to sell cards at $499-549. $549 price for HD7970 that still happens to be the fastest single GPU with OC 12 months after launch is nothing unusual in the context of historial ATI/NV prices. Also, $549 is a 49% increase in price for a card that was 45% faster than $369 HD6970. A fairly linear increase in price/performance. Not a bad deal in hindsight considering 925mhz HD7970 had 25%+ overclocking headroom in it. If you are going to bring HD7970's launch price into this, then a $900 Titan would need to be nearly 80% ($900 / $500) faster than GTX680 to have a similarly linear price/performance curve that HD7970 delivered over 6970 and 25% overclocking headroom on top. HD7970 OC ends up 72% faster than HD6970 at 1080P and 79% faster at 1600P. If NV delivers this same level of performance increase with just a 49% increase in price, then sure it's comparable to what happened between HD7970 vs. HD6970. You also conveniently ignore the absolute value of the price increase. Going from HD6970 to HD7970 was a bump in price of $180. Going from $500 to $900 is a price increase of $400. My wallet doesn't just operate in %, but also in absolute value terms. $400 increase is more than double the price increase from HD6970 to HD7970.

NV raising flagship GPU prices to $900-1000 is not at all comparable to AMD going back to $499-549 price level of ATI:

7800GTX 256MB = $599
8800GTX = $599
GTX280 = $649 but dropped to $499 just 1 month later
GTX480/580 = both $499

All of a sudden NV is raising prices to $900-1000 with GTX690/Titan. That's not even remotely close to normal historical pricing of NV. Cards like 8800GTX Ultra or 7800GTX 512MB were limited run cards with very limited shelf-life. GTX690 sold for 12 months as a regular flagship GPU. It was never built to be a limited run card. Now that NV conditioned PC enthusiasts that $1K for a flagship card is not a big deal, there comes the rumoured $900 Titan card. Nearly a year later and NV is going to sell a card slower than GTX690 for just a $100 discount? That's a great deal you are saying? Did you forget HD5870? That card deliver GTX295/HD4870X2 level of performance for $369. Both GTX295 and HD4870X2 were $500 GPUs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sontin View Post
Okay, now i'm confused:
AMD was allowed to rise the prices because they got back to their "historical levels" but when nVidia is doing the same it's a "no thanks"?

You seem to be confused about historical price levels of single GPU flagship cards. ATi-NV generally sold in the range of $499-649. $899-999 are not historical normal levels. You seem to think $900 for a Titan is good value. NV's marketing team will be happy to know this.

AMD was able to raise prices to $549 because that's actually the 'normal' historical price level for flagship cards. I have no problem with $499-549 GTX680/HD7970 cards. $899 for the next flagship? Ya, that's a No Thanks. Using the same logic, NV should have been raising prices every time they added 60-70% more performance starting with GTX280 to 480 to 680. They didn't do that but after seeing people happily giving them $1K for a GTX690, it seems they see the market can bear $900-1K for flagship cards.

Also, you may want to compare the die sizes of the previous generation flagship cards from NV I already listed in this thread and then compare ATI die sizes and their prices. 365mm2 die for $549 is pretty similar to ATI's per mm2 prices for their flagship GPUs. NV charged $499-649 for 484-576mm2 dies. Therefore, $649 for a 550mm2 Titan with 50% more performance over GTX680 would have been reasonable. $900 for a 550mm2 is completely out of line with what NV used to charge per mm2.

In case you didn't notice after-market cards like HD7950 that launched at $469-499 can now be had for $280-300. That's how the GPU industry generally works - a similar level of performance can be purchased for less over time. GTX690 is not worth $999 anymore since it's not a new GPU in tech terms. Trying to justify Titan's $900 price in the context of GTX690's current market prices assumes GTX690 is itself reasonably priced, which it really isn't anymore, just like HD7970GE, GTX680 are no longer worth their $420-450+ prices either since they are now old GPUs in tech terms.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:12 PM   #457
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If only we could go back to the days when the high end GPU was $299, like my 9800 Pro was back in the day. My all time 2nd favorite card next to my Voodoo 2
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:43 PM   #458
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I thought it was the second coming of 8800 GTX. Wasn't a single 8800 GTX roughly 30~40% faster than 7800 GTX in SLI ?
G80 was no doubt excellent, but what contributed to that was that G71 was a bit weak. Compared to X1900 series G80 still looks very good, but not exorbitantly good

@RS:
Maybe Titan actually IS like the 8800 Ultra - a rare limited production card for absolute enthusiasts. I doubt it will be in good supply or that hundreds of thousands will be manufactured. In that context, the price doesn't sound too absurd. So I get sontins point, where is the problem?

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Old 02-02-2013, 10:11 AM   #459
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Just curious...since this is rumored to be coming this month...what is the length of this card and power requirement rumored to be? If it has been rumored at all.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:12 AM   #460
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If only we could go back to the days when the high end GPU was $299, like my 9800 Pro was back in the day. My all time 2nd favorite card next to my Voodoo 2
I agree... I remember my 9700 pro quite well... and also the 9700 that was either OC'd or unlocked to a 9700 pro.

I think that 9700 pro is still being used in a friend's computer.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:58 AM   #461
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The best part is NV managed to disguise it all by somehow making us gamers think it was AMD that raised prices.
AMD did raise prices and to me, nVidia was dancing in the halls at their Santa Clara HQ.
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:13 PM   #462
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AMD did raise prices and to me, nVidia was dancing in the halls at their Santa Clara HQ.
That was a good one! I'm just interested in seeing what the card looks like. I love the bling factor of the 690. I think it's one of the sexiest cards ever made. It's like women with me. Looks first...Personality second...
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:31 PM   #463
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According to Jim at Rage3d, Techreport and PC perspective have the sku in house!
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:07 PM   #464
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I'm feeling like a little boy before Christmas!
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:58 PM   #465
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Just curious...since this is rumored to be coming this month...what is the length of this card and power requirement rumored to be? If it has been rumored at all.
noting the size of the GPU, I'd expect it to be right in line with GTX280/480/580 level TDP, so around 250W

in my shoes, with overclocking CPU and video card, I wouldn't want to run with anything less than a decent quality ~600+W PSU for a single card
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:02 PM   #466
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noting the size of the GPU, I'd expect it to be right in line with GTX280/480/580 level TDP, so around 250W

in my shoes, with overclocking CPU and video card, I wouldn't want to run with anything less than a decent quality ~600+W PSU for a single card
Hm, I don't overclock so my 620w/48amp PSU ought to handle that well...since I'm in the market for a card now I guess I should wait and see how this reviews.
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:05 PM   #467
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Hm, I don't overclock so my 620w/48amp PSU ought to handle that well...since I'm in the market for a card now I guess I should wait and see how this reviews.
yeah, you'd be all set
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:36 PM   #468
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If only we could go back to the days when the high end GPU was $299, like my 9800 Pro was back in the day. My all time 2nd favorite card next to my Voodoo 2
I don't mean to be a nit-picker but the 9700 pro to 9800 pro had a 399 MSRP and the 9800XT, it was raised to 499 MSRP.

The Radeon 8500 did have a 299 MSRP.
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:53 PM   #469
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All these people complaining about the price..

IMO if you don't like the price, then don't buy it. While this would be a flagship, it would be in the lines of an ARES card - not in full production, probably a limited edition run. If that's the case, you don't have anything to worry about.

Come back and cry when the 780 is $800 because you "THINK" that they are going to screw you over.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:33 PM   #470
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All these people complaining about the price..

IMO if you don't like the price, then don't buy it. While this would be a flagship, it would be in the lines of an ARES card - not in full production, probably a limited edition run. If that's the case, you don't have anything to worry about.

Come back and cry when the 780 is $800 because you "THINK" that they are going to screw you over.
It's a cyclical thing.

The company that is not your favourite puts out the fastest card, you piss and moan and change your diaper about it being too expensive.

The company that is your favourite puts out the fastest card, you laud it with praise and all concerns about its price become irrelevant.

Status quo for VC&G
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:16 PM   #471
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It's a cyclical thing.

The company that is not your favourite puts out the fastest card, you piss and moan and change your diaper about it being too expensive.

The company that is your favourite puts out the fastest card, you laud it with praise and all concerns about its price become irrelevant.

Status quo for VC&G
+1

Exactly.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:45 PM   #472
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I don't mean to be a nit-picker but the 9700 pro to 9800 pro had a 399 MSRP and the 9800XT, it was raised to 499 MSRP.

The Radeon 8500 did have a 299 MSRP.
You might be right, but I could have sworn I paid 299 for my 9800, ill have to see if I can find my invoice for that purchase.

As far as complaining about price, nothing wrong with complaining. A closed mouth doesn't get fed. And while complaining may not accomplish anything, not saying a word certainly wouldn't.

When buying a new car, if the sticker is a bit more than you want to pay but you want the car, so you just walk out or do you complain and see if it gets lowered any?
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:41 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by Grooveriding View Post
It's a cyclical thing.

The company that is not your favourite puts out the fastest card, you piss and moan and change your diaper about it being too expensive.

The company that is your favourite puts out the fastest card, you laud it with praise and all concerns about its price become irrelevant.

Status quo for VC&G
+2
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:37 PM   #474
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The only reason I piss and moan about how expensive the top cards are, is because I always buy at least two of them.
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:29 AM   #475
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It its pointless to piss and moan about the price of cards that are not even on the market.
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