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Old 01-31-2013, 03:40 PM   #26
Dari
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Originally Posted by phucheneh View Post
While I don't see Toyota as any kind of great innovator (please no hybrid debate; I'll agree that it's innovative if others will agree to not bring it up ;P), I don't think they've been 'cruising on brand name' any moreso that Honda and...well, Honda. I don't don't think anyone else has the 'bulletproof' rep like those two brands. Nissan arguably should, but doesn't seem to.

But those reputations are born out of NOT being cutting edge of innovative. Use what works, and keep using it until change is forced. That's a big part of what has made their cars stand the test of time. While Toyota may be about the most boring carmaker out there, I don't think their reputation for reliability is unfounded...and that's what their buyers are seeking (reliability, that is).

For example, when other manufacturers were moving to engine compartments with electrically controlled parts and near-lack of vacuum lines, Honda still had the ol' spaghetti nest going on. And it kept working. In contrast, the new solenoid-operated parts that others were using were hit and miss, and typically far more expensive to replace than a length of rubber hose or a vacuum motor (which is a chunk of metal or, more commonly, plastic, with a little bit of rubber in the middle).


Anyhow: Recalls for Toyota, like most manufacturers, usually come from tiny engineering oversights. Whereas I've seen a lot of recalls on American cars that involved pretty major failures, Honda/Toyota recalls are, for the most part, something along the lines of 'perform a slight modification to this part' or 'relocate this wiring connector' or whatnot. I accept the stuff as inevitable.

As far as one company being better about recalls than another...meh. For every manufacturer out there, there are people who will say they were treated poorly, they had problems that the dealer could not fix, failures that should've had an extended warranty or recall, ect. Google 'I will never buy from [insert any manufacturer] again,' and you'll get plenty of results. They all have bottom lines, and they will all occasionally do something that is (IMO) shitty and immoral to save a buck.

As far as these recalls- the Lexus one is highly surprising, as loose wiper arms are a very common problem. When I worked for Firestone (uuggghhh), I saw that from every make. Almost every 'wiper inop' complaint was fixed by tightening the nut holding the arm to the wiper transmission. I typically add a split lock washer or a dab of loctite to prevent repeat occurrences. But on the flip side, the recall could be considered UNSURPRISING because it probably pays a tenth an hour of labor and $0 in parts.

I'm curious as to the specifics of the air bag thing. The article mentions an integrated circuit, but I would not be surprised if that's totally incorrect, and it's simply a wiring modification.

edit: missed the Jeep thing. So I'm guessing this is a crash sensor issue?
This is patently false. Honda is one of the most innovative car companies out there. They just don't brag about it and they never collaborate with other companies. Honda is heavily invested in natural gas and fuel cell. They are the only company I know that sell fuel cell vehicles. Honda also has one of the best AWD systems on the road, the SH-AWD.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:42 PM   #27
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Although I've never owned one, and never will, Toyota is of course among the top vehicle mfgs at #3 worldwide.
They are #1.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:58 PM   #28
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This is patently false. Honda is one of the most innovative car companies out there. They just don't brag about it and they never collaborate with other companies. Honda is heavily invested in natural gas and fuel cell. They are the only company I know that sell fuel cell vehicles. Honda also has one of the best AWD systems on the road, the SH-AWD.
You're applying a generalized comment to too specific a context. And also exposing yourself as some kind of Honda nut-hugger.

Honda has made their name in the mainstream with KISS principles, like it or not. I wasn't saying that they weren't researching other tech...more just saying that you can always expect stuff like the Civic and Accord to (generally) use well thought-out applications of common, tried and true tech to keep their reliability rep up.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:25 PM   #29
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You're applying a generalized comment to too specific a context. And also exposing yourself as some kind of Honda nut-hugger.

Honda has made their name in the mainstream with KISS principles, like it or not. I wasn't saying that they weren't researching other tech...more just saying that you can always expect stuff like the Civic and Accord to (generally) use well thought-out applications of common, tried and true tech to keep their reliability rep up.
Hey, I am giving examples just like you. They are doing more than researching. They actually manufacture these cars and sell them. You specifically said that they are not innovative or cutting edge when they clearly are. People like you just look at the visuals and ignore the underpinnings (or see what you like). For example, their latest RLX, according to many, is a snooze-fest. But dig deeper and you will see their next generation SH-SH-AWD, an AWD system that was already considered the best in the industry.

Your post also implied that they use an old tech until forced to move on, which is just not true. Honda is a classic Japanese company. By that I mean they come out with advanced tech and put it out in limited numbers to test the waters. Once the kinks are fleshed out they expand it. Their philosophy may be KISS but it does not mean that they are not innovative.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:55 PM   #30
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Hey, I am giving examples just like you. They are doing more than researching. They actually manufacture these cars and sell them. You specifically said that they are not innovative or cutting edge when they clearly are. People like you just look at the visuals and ignore the underpinnings (or see what you like). For example, their latest RLX, according to many, is a snooze-fest. But dig deeper and you will see their next generation SH-SH-AWD, an AWD system that was already considered the best in the industry.

Your post also implied that they use an old tech until forced to move on, which is just not true. Honda is a classic Japanese company. By that I mean they come out with advanced tech and put it out in limited numbers to test the waters. Once the kinks are fleshed out they expand it. Their philosophy may be KISS but it does not mean that they are not innovative.
Okay...sorry for the 'nut-hugger' comment...it does appear you're being way more more subjective than I initially thought.

I fully agree with the quoted post. We're just looking at it from different angles. Yeah, Honda does plenty of research, often pioneering technology. I was simply trying to say that on a mass-market scale, which is where reliability perceptions really come into play, Honda does try and keep it simple. And that's not a put-down. It's just what I've seen, and why the vehicles they sell in droves (again, Civic and Accord dominate the NA market for Hondas) are generally quite reliable.

Even when you bring more obscure examples into play, there is a presence of 'elegance in simplicity.' The Insight was ahead of its time, but the tech was still relatively simple and reliable. The NSX is grouped with very high-end sports cars (albeit not 'super cars'), but did not include tech for the sake of tech. It's was good ol' Honda in a hi-po wrapper. Ect.
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:18 PM   #31
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They are #1.
Everywhere I check says VW & GM are ahead...
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:53 PM   #32
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Okay...sorry for the 'nut-hugger' comment...it does appear you're being way more more subjective than I initially thought.

I fully agree with the quoted post. We're just looking at it from different angles. Yeah, Honda does plenty of research, often pioneering technology. I was simply trying to say that on a mass-market scale, which is where reliability perceptions really come into play, Honda does try and keep it simple. And that's not a put-down. It's just what I've seen, and why the vehicles they sell in droves (again, Civic and Accord dominate the NA market for Hondas) are generally quite reliable.

Even when you bring more obscure examples into play, there is a presence of 'elegance in simplicity.' The Insight was ahead of its time, but the tech was still relatively simple and reliable. The NSX is grouped with very high-end sports cars (albeit not 'super cars'), but did not include tech for the sake of tech. It's was good ol' Honda in a hi-po wrapper. Ect.
I agree. They don't over-engineer like the Germans.
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:54 PM   #33
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Everywhere I check says VW & GM are ahead...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ory-goes-home/
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:41 PM   #34
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Strange chart of three different things...

Quote:
Toyota: Production. GM: Sales. VW: Deliveries.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:54 PM   #35
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Strange chart of three different things...
That's because GM hasn't given their numbers yet for 2012. But everyone is in agreement that Toyota is #1 for 2012.
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:31 PM   #36
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LOL, GM doesn't ever give numbers. Not legit ones, anyway. Post-bailout we've been treated to lots of fudged pieces of paper to make it look like our 'investment' wasn't flushed down the shitter.

At least they're selling plenty of Impalas...back to the goverment. At least non-government fleet sales seem to be declining; they must not be able keep offering the same incentives for buying those turds.

(...no, I'm not bitter that we save GM...not at all. )
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:18 AM   #37
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That's because GM hasn't given their numbers yet for 2012. But everyone is in agreement that Toyota is #1 for 2012.
Well, 1 or 3, it doesn't really affect my point...they are near the top.
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