Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Social > Politics and News

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals with Free Stuff/Contests
· Black Friday 2014
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-23-2013, 10:17 AM   #26
zsdersw
Lifer
 
zsdersw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location
Posts: 10,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nehalem256 View Post
And do you think if a student said they had homosexual attractions, but wanted the Power of Christ to keep them from sinning they would be expelled?
Yes. They'd probably also suspect the student of being a liar about wanting to keep from sinning.

Quote:
"Coming out" as gay is implicitly endorsing the homosexual lifestyle.
What do you mean by "the homosexual lifestyle"? "Coming out" as gay is revealing that you're attracted to the same gender. Reading anything more into it is one of the many stupid biases people have.
__________________
Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool -Mark Twain

If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand -Milton Friedman

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -Robert J. Hanlon
zsdersw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:18 AM   #27
zsdersw
Lifer
 
zsdersw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location
Posts: 10,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangerGuy View Post
Yeah I dunno WTF is so difficult to understand. If they want the right as a private organization to kick out gays, then they should not receive any public funding. Can't have it both ways.
People like nehalem and Iron Woode just like to argue.. even if they know they're wrong.
__________________
Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool -Mark Twain

If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand -Milton Friedman

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -Robert J. Hanlon
zsdersw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:23 AM   #28
nehalem256
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 15,670
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post
What do you mean by "the homosexual lifestyle"? "Coming out" as gay is revealing that you're attracted to the same gender. Reading anything more into it is one of the many stupid biases people have.
"Coming out" means that you come out as actively wanting to have sex with the same sex.

I doubt "coming out" would be applied to someone who was actively trying to avoid sinning.

In fact:
Quote:
The Cumberland Christian Academy stipulates that "Students shall not promote or participate in immorality such as pornography, adultery, fornication, pre-marital sex, or homosexuality."
Saying you would felt homosexual attractions, but wanted help through the Power of Jesus Christ to keep from sinning would not seem to be "promoting or participating" in immorality now would it?

Last edited by nehalem256; 01-23-2013 at 10:25 AM.
nehalem256 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:30 AM   #29
zsdersw
Lifer
 
zsdersw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location
Posts: 10,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nehalem256 View Post
"Coming out" means that you come out as actively wanting to have sex with the same sex.
No, it's saying you're attracted to the same sex. It doesn't mean you actively want to have sex with the same sex.

Quote:
I doubt "coming out" would be applied to someone who was actively trying to avoid sinning.

In fact:

Saying you would felt homosexual attractions, but wanted help through the Power of Jesus Christ to keep from sinning would not seem to be "promoting or participating" in immorality now would it?
Neither you nor they make the distinction between having homosexual attraction and "promoting or participating" in homosexuality, so I have to conclude that they would expel them too.
__________________
Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool -Mark Twain

If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand -Milton Friedman

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -Robert J. Hanlon
zsdersw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 02:54 PM   #30
piasabird
Lifer
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,190
Default

So is it OK to expell a rapist from a school? Who are you to tell a private school what their standards should be? Private schools have all these state requirements they have to maintain and they are not forcing anyone to attend.

If their parents are paying state and local and federal taxes, they deserve the same assistance that other public schools get.

So are you proposing taxation without representation?
__________________
Asus Memo Pad 7 HD. Quad Core Tablet.

Last edited by piasabird; 01-23-2013 at 02:56 PM.
piasabird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 03:25 PM   #31
Zstream
Platinum Member
 
Zstream's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,091
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangerGuy View Post
Yeah I dunno WTF is so difficult to understand. If they want the right as a private organization to kick out gays, then they should not receive any public funding. Can't have it both ways.
Umm why are my tax dollars going to public schools when I don't have kids or plan on sending them to private school?
Zstream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 05:48 PM   #32
nehalem256
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 15,670
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post
Neither you nor they make the distinction between having homosexual attraction and "promoting or participating" in homosexuality, so I have to conclude that they would expel them too.
Actually you have zero evidence to back that up
Quote:
"Students shall not promote or participate in immorality such as pornography, adultery, fornication, pre-marital sex, or homosexuality."
Quoted from you article. Do you have any evidence that these schools cannot tell the difference between participating in homosexuality and having homosexual attractions?

In fact your article does not even provide any evidence of students actually being expelled.

Perhaps LGBT students are not as dumb as you think and avoid attending schools that are opposed to homosexual behavior.
nehalem256 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 05:50 PM   #33
nehalem256
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 15,670
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Woode View Post
Yes, it does. You are not a Christian or you would know the Church's position on homosexuality. I am assuming they are Roman Catholic.

did you actually look up this law? Why isn't the school being charged then? I am sure there must be complaints filed against the school. So why hasn't the state done something yet?

Maybe there is a loop hole or 2 in the legislation?
The article does not discuss any instances of students being expelled. If there are none that would easily explain why there are no complaints. It seems logical that gay students would not want to attend a school that considers homosexual activity to be immoral.

EDIT: Also apparently they receive money through some kind of "tax credit" program. So it is entirely possible that the schools do not directly receive funds from the state. And that instead the parents receive a tax credit for sending their children to a private school.
nehalem256 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 05:52 PM   #34
ch33zw1z
Lifer
 
ch33zw1z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ten Forward
Posts: 13,164
Default

Regardless of religion, I don't believe that public funds should be used for any private schools.
__________________
Heatware

ch33zw1z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:06 PM   #35
WHAMPOM
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,863
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post
There's an inherent difference between fornicating and coming out as gay. It would be akin to getting expelled for saying at a Christian school "I'm Muslim".



Do they? It doesn't say.
Expell any student that supports gay rights. Providence Christian Academy says they do. You did read the source you used?
__________________
After thirty years of union busting, deregulation, tax breaks for the rich and etc. nearly duplicating the economic conditions preceeding the Great Depression, you wonder why we had another one? 90% tax on the rich, that made this country great! Then Kennedy dropped it to 70% and it's been down hill ever since. Conservative's worst nightmare come true; a second term Obama Presidency. Rush Limbaugh the American Osama Bin Laden.
WHAMPOM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:09 PM   #36
WHAMPOM
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,863
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post
Yes. They'd probably also suspect the student of being a liar about wanting to keep from sinning.



What do you mean by "the homosexual lifestyle"? "Coming out" as gay is revealing that you're attracted to the same gender. Reading anything more into it is one of the many stupid biases people have.
You are arguing semantics with a troll, stop it.
__________________
After thirty years of union busting, deregulation, tax breaks for the rich and etc. nearly duplicating the economic conditions preceeding the Great Depression, you wonder why we had another one? 90% tax on the rich, that made this country great! Then Kennedy dropped it to 70% and it's been down hill ever since. Conservative's worst nightmare come true; a second term Obama Presidency. Rush Limbaugh the American Osama Bin Laden.
WHAMPOM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:12 PM   #37
Incorruptible
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,536
Default

This case shows exactly why government should not be subsidizing private schools, They are private schools and there should be no tax dollars for them but they get their own rules and can discriminate against whoever they want.
Incorruptible is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:21 PM   #38
Fern
Elite Member
Super Moderator
 
Fern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Great Smoky Mountains
Posts: 24,041
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post
-snip-
Private schools can discriminate all they want, but not when taking taxpayer dollars.
First, at least to me, it's not clear that the schools are receiving any money directly from the state. See here:

Quote:
The schools receive a tax credit program that turn state funds into scholarships for religiously based private schools.
Private schools are almost always set-up as non-profit. I.e., not subject to tax and therefore couldn't use a tax credit.

Perhaps it works as nehalem256 suggests; the parents get a tax credit. If so, the private schools are not receiving money directly from the state.

(Edit: If it is a tax credit for parents paying private school tuition, I think the state would have a problem excluding religious private schools. I'm sure that there are private schools that are secular (non-religious). So, the credit would have to be modified to exclude religious schools. I think the state would be sued for discrimination against religious type schools.)

While my first impulse is to oppose state funding for private schools, upon further consideration I don't have an objection. I think it's in the (local/state) govt's best interest to provide a level of incentives for those choosing private schools. It lessens the strain on the public school system. If done properly this can be a substantial financial benefit for the local govt.

I have also supported voucher programs, particularly for those stuck in crappy school districts (usual poor and/or minority students). If a tax credit granted to parents is akin to state funding for private schools, so are voucher programs.

I don't see any valid complaint.

Fern
__________________
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.

Last edited by Fern; 01-23-2013 at 06:28 PM.
Fern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:25 PM   #39
SheHateMe
Diamond Member
 
SheHateMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Woodbridge, VA
Posts: 6,760
Default

I went to both Lutheran and Catholic schools and I am neither.

They should have kicked me out.
__________________
Main: Intel i5 3570K | MSI Z77A-G45 | Patriot Gamer 2 Series 8GB | MSI Twin Frozr III 7950 | Corsair H80 | CORSAIR Enthusiast Series TX650 | Fractal Design R4
HTPC: In Progress
NAS: Lian Li Q25B | Asus P8H77-I | Intel Celeron G540 | 4GB RAM | 21TB | UNRAID Plus
SheHateMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:28 PM   #40
Fern
Elite Member
Super Moderator
 
Fern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Great Smoky Mountains
Posts: 24,041
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SheHateMe View Post
I went to both Lutheran and Catholic schools and I am neither.

They should have kicked me out.
Yeah, I went to a Baptist school and am not Baptist. But that's because I got kicked out the public schools.

Fern
__________________
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.
Fern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:32 PM   #41
zinfamous
No Lifer
 
zinfamous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 62,720
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nehalem256 View Post
Apparently he would prefer the school not expel the student and instead subject them say special "Christian Studies classes" talking about the evils of homosexuality and how they will burn in hell for all eternity unless they repent.

It seems the school is really doing the student a favor by expelling them. They are not a good fit for the school.
how so? plenty of gay christians out there. generally speaking, they don't tend to believe in a notion that god wants them dead, however. (that is silly, isn't it?)
__________________
PAB: My dad blew a tranny. I've been asked to see if I can get one replaced free.
brianmanahan: zinfamous is such a fool
he's known as AT:OT's tool
mentally he's such a klutz
his head is made of 50 butts
zinfamous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 07:23 PM   #42
nehalem256
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 15,670
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfamous View Post
how so? plenty of gay christians out there. generally speaking, they don't tend to believe in a notion that god wants them dead, however. (that is silly, isn't it?)
I imagine those gay christians are not running the schools in the article.
nehalem256 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:29 AM   #43
zsdersw
Lifer
 
zsdersw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location
Posts: 10,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WHAMPOM View Post
Expell any student that supports gay rights. Providence Christian Academy says they do. You did read the source you used?
Yes I did... did you read my reply? Can you understand what you read?

Quote:
You are arguing semantics with a troll, stop it.
I realize he's a troll, but no... I'll argue what I want with whomever I want.
__________________
Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool -Mark Twain

If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand -Milton Friedman

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -Robert J. Hanlon
zsdersw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:33 AM   #44
zsdersw
Lifer
 
zsdersw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location
Posts: 10,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fern View Post
First, at least to me, it's not clear that the schools are receiving any money directly from the state. See here:

Private schools are almost always set-up as non-profit. I.e., not subject to tax and therefore couldn't use a tax credit.

Perhaps it works as nehalem256 suggests; the parents get a tax credit. If so, the private schools are not receiving money directly from the state.

(Edit: If it is a tax credit for parents paying private school tuition, I think the state would have a problem excluding religious private schools. I'm sure that there are private schools that are secular (non-religious). So, the credit would have to be modified to exclude religious schools. I think the state would be sued for discrimination against religious type schools.)

While my first impulse is to oppose state funding for private schools, upon further consideration I don't have an objection. I think it's in the (local/state) govt's best interest to provide a level of incentives for those choosing private schools. It lessens the strain on the public school system. If done properly this can be a substantial financial benefit for the local govt.

I have also supported voucher programs, particularly for those stuck in crappy school districts (usual poor and/or minority students). If a tax credit granted to parents is akin to state funding for private schools, so are voucher programs.

I don't see any valid complaint.

Fern
I know all about this tax credit stuff you're talking about, but that doesn't change the fact that this program was designed to weasel out of technically being guilty of directly receiving public funds. It is still public money ending up in the pocket of private schools that discriminate in ways public entities (and entities receiving public money) are not allowed.
__________________
Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool -Mark Twain

If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand -Milton Friedman

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -Robert J. Hanlon
zsdersw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:54 AM   #45
zsdersw
Lifer
 
zsdersw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location
Posts: 10,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nehalem256 View Post
Actually you have zero evidence to back that up
About the schools, perhaps, but not about you. I have absolutely no reason to believe you'd acknowledge a case of improper discrimination even if it was staring you in the face. You'd give a pass to any person or publicly-funded organization that abused or discriminated against someone because they're gay.

Quote:
Quoted from you article. Do you have any evidence that these schools cannot tell the difference between participating in homosexuality and having homosexual attractions?
Why would they bother trying to figure it out when it's easier to expel them?

Quote:
In fact your article does not even provide any evidence of students actually being expelled.

Perhaps LGBT students are not as dumb as you think and avoid attending schools that are opposed to homosexual behavior.
Perhaps, but that doesn't make it right to receive public funds.
__________________
Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool -Mark Twain

If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand -Milton Friedman

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -Robert J. Hanlon

Last edited by zsdersw; 01-24-2013 at 08:00 AM.
zsdersw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:56 AM   #46
zsdersw
Lifer
 
zsdersw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location
Posts: 10,560
Default

And, BTW, I don't think this should be permitted whether they're a Christian school or not. Private institutions should not receive public money if they discriminate on the basis of gender, religion, sexual orientation, or disability/handicap.

I have as much of a problem with any homosexuals-only school that receives public funds, or any atheists-only school that receives public funds, for example.

The problem with this specific program is the state matching of any money donated by parents.
__________________
Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool -Mark Twain

If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand -Milton Friedman

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -Robert J. Hanlon
zsdersw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:59 AM   #47
nehalem256
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 15,670
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post
About the schools, perhaps, but not about you. I have absolutely no reason to believe you'd acknowledge a case of improper discrimination even if it was staring you in the face.
Well since no evidence of discrimination occurring has been provided you can make any baseless accusations you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post
Why would they bother trying to figure it out when it's easier to expel them?
Why do you assume that the schools are going to take the easy way out? Maybe if you actually had some examples of schools expelling students we would be able to determine the truth.

But since you don't...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post
Perhaps, but that doesn't make it right to receive public funds.
So no discrimination is occurring, but you still don't want the schools to indirectly receive public funding.

Be honest now. What you really want to do is discriminate against people/entities that don't share your values.
nehalem256 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 08:00 AM   #48
nehalem256
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 15,670
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post
And, BTW, I don't think this should be permitted whether they're a Christian school or not. Private institutions should not receive public money if they discriminate on the basis of gender, religion, sexual orientation, or disability/handicap.
So you have no problem with them discriminating on other things?

Should a Jewish school be required to admit say neo-Nazi students?
nehalem256 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 08:02 AM   #49
zsdersw
Lifer
 
zsdersw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location
Posts: 10,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nehalem256 View Post
So you have no problem with them discriminating on other things?

Should a Jewish school be required to admit say neo-Nazi students?
I don't care what schools discriminate on as long as they don't receive public funds.
__________________
Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool -Mark Twain

If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand -Milton Friedman

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -Robert J. Hanlon
zsdersw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 08:05 AM   #50
zsdersw
Lifer
 
zsdersw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location
Posts: 10,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nehalem256 View Post
Well since no evidence of discrimination occurring has been provided you can make any baseless accusations you want.
You wouldn't think there was ever any discrimination against or abuse of gay people even if evidence was plainly in sight.

And yes, there is an example of this happening: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12394904.../#.UQFAKR27OAg

Quote:
Why do you assume that the schools are going to take the easy way out? Maybe if you actually had some examples of schools expelling students we would be able to determine the truth.

But since you don't...
Private schools generally don't have the time or personnel to find this out.

Quote:
So no discrimination is occurring, but you still don't want the schools to indirectly receive public funding.
Directly or indirectly, especially if the indirect method was designed specifically to evade the system that prevents discrimination with public money.

Quote:
Be honest now. What you really want to do is discriminate against people/entities that don't share your values.
I am being honest. I don't care if they share my values or not... if they receive public funding they should either not discriminate or refuse public funding.
__________________
Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool -Mark Twain

If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand -Milton Friedman

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -Robert J. Hanlon

Last edited by zsdersw; 01-24-2013 at 08:08 AM.
zsdersw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.