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Old 01-09-2013, 09:46 AM   #26
zsdersw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreus21 View Post
I think you have it in reverse. I think they're acting out of ideology formed by their principles.
Ideology and principles can form from each other.

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Perhaps they aren't playing this like a game. Perhaps they have rules and stick to them, with no long term goal in mind.
... which will lead to the relative isolation I outlined in the OP.

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I think using principles as a means to an end, instead of the end itself, is a good way to lose your principles.
Then you've finally answered the question I asked in the OP. Thanks.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:48 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post
Then you've finally answered the question I asked in the OP. Thanks.
Guess it took me a few minutes to get around to it.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:53 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post

Would you prefer to be ideologically pure and have few, if any, supporters or would you prefer to make ideological compromises and, as a result, have many supporters?
An ideology is a comprehensive system of beliefs, a philosophical system built on thought. It defines ones goals and the nature of ones actions to attain them. As such it is based on the past, the application of the past on the future. It is judgment by thought and subject to purity review. It is full of the duality of good and evil and they do not exist. There is only love that exists in the now and from which all life flows. The lover is and always acts with love that is perfect. The ideologue is asleep.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:57 AM   #29
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The Bible is very clear that homosexuals must be put to death.

We need to stop with this illusion that religion can be tolerant. It's not. You cannot be Christian and support gay rights because you are defying a tenet of your religion.

.
Nope.

Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuals, but he was a HUGE proponent of the 10 commanments, which have nothing to say about homosexuals.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:44 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Atreus21 View Post
Having principles means you're going to piss some people off. If you never have to suffer for your principles, then you're unprincipled.

I think they only risk being marginalized and sidelined by those who care little for it beyond its utility in bringing homosexual politics to the fore.

Why don't gay scouts start their own scouting organization that lacks such criteria?
I agree that principles are important, but I would suggest that it's time for the Boy Scouts to re-examine their policies. The vast majority of Christian churches no longer shun gays. And if the parents really know a prospective Scoutmaster - which should be a prerequisite of letting ANYONE take your children into the woods - there is no reason to suspect that gay Scoutmasters should prove more of a danger to boys than do straight Scoutmasters. (That's an educated guess since I know very few gay people, but based on the people I've seen busted for child porn/child sex I think it's a reasonably safe guess.)

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They're a Christian organization. They should ban gays, and so should every other Christian organization. The Bible is very clear that homosexuals must be put to death.

We need to stop with this illusion that religion can be tolerant. It's not. You cannot be Christian and support gay rights because you are defying a tenet of your religion.

Remember those liberal nuns? Instead of simply leaving the Catholic church, they pretended they could reform it. What good does kind of stupidity do? All it does is let these religions keep hanging on long past their time.
You actually think Christianity cannot be tolerant? You haven't noticed the striking paucity of churches and/or Christians murdering homosexuals?
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:50 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Throckmorton View Post
They're a Christian organization. They should ban gays, and so should every other Christian organization. The Bible is very clear that homosexuals must be put to death.

We need to stop with this illusion that religion can be tolerant. It's not. You cannot be Christian and support gay rights because you are defying a tenet of your religion.

Remember those liberal nuns? Instead of simply leaving the Catholic church, they pretended they could reform it. What good does kind of stupidity do? All it does is let these religions keep hanging on long past their time.
I am Christian and I support gays because it is one stupid ass line in a book who's content was decided on by a handful of people that makes Christians hate gays. And where did it say they must be put to death? I missed that part.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:58 PM   #32
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Since when did you not accepting something make you intolerant, or is that a bigoted-blanket way to [wrongly] lable all Chrisitians?

I can see why homosexuals don't mix well with reliigion in general. "You don't accept homosexuality based on your "holy book", you're intolerant"... no matter how many Christians are doctors, lawayers, cops, or perform many a civil/medical/legal service for homosexuals world-wide, without them even being aware that a religious person in doing it!

..or is it becasue they want to dictate who's allowed to serve as preists or can get married in their churches?

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Old 01-09-2013, 04:04 PM   #33
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Christians believe this is the literal word of God himself.
  • KJV: (King James Version): "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."
Wow, word of God huh? Some pretty backwards shit.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:18 PM   #34
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You actually think Christianity cannot be tolerant? You haven't noticed the striking paucity of churches and/or Christians murdering homosexuals?
Woah a sec, possum.. I hope you're not saying that tolerance is linked to not killing people.

As long as they aren't trying to force, via law, their views on you then they are indeed tolerant. To be tolerant doesn't mean letting openly and active homosexuals be an active part of and get married in their Church, either. Some Churches have standards, and that's actually commendable. It's not a discrimination thing, though it's normally championed that way.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:45 PM   #35
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It is really a complicated question. If we are talking about say the correct tax rate for 1%ers this seems like something that can be compromised on. Saying that taxes on the rich cannot be above 35.145% seems like a rather silly stance.

However, if we are to look at the idea of Gay Boy Scout leaders as from the OP. What exactly would be a compromise position on that issue? Allowing bi-sexual Scout leaders?

Simple put there are some issues on which compromise is legitimately impossible.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:47 PM   #36
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Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuals, but he was a HUGE proponent of the 10 commanments, which have nothing to say about homosexuals.
So was he suppose to go through the OT line-by-line and reiterate every law?

Also, as far as I know Jesus had nothing to say about pedophilia either. Does that make pedophilia okay?
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:55 PM   #37
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So was he suppose to go through the OT line-by-line and reiterate every law?

Also, as far as I know Jesus had nothing to say about pedophilia either. Does that make pedophilia okay?
Many people think that God 'changed' from Testament to Testament. Utterly false statement.

The Jews were well-versed in the Mosaic Law and, as you've correctly stated, Jesus really didn't have to reinterate every law code. They had copies.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:02 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Throckmorton View Post
Christians believe this is the literal word of God himself.
  • KJV: (King James Version): "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."
Quote:
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Wow, word of God huh? Some pretty backwards shit.
I recommend you read the book for yourself.
Matthew 7:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:38 AM   #39
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I am Christian and I support gays because it is one stupid ass line in a book who's content was decided on by a handful of people that makes Christians hate gays. And where did it say they must be put to death? I missed that part.
Your sarcasm meter should be going off like nuts with Thock's post.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:53 PM   #40
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I recommend you read the book for yourself.
Matthew 7:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Love it when the writers of a book full of judgments instruct people not to judge.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:57 PM   #41
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As an American I'd rather settle for compromise (and apparently I'm the only one). Why? Because adhering to ones principals means you cannot accept new information that may go against your principals. You essentially are saying you are ok being ignorant. Secondly, this country has a history of making compromises and while not perfect it did allow us to move forward. Lastly, having more people to cater to also means you have more people to pool ideas from, a diversity of opinions leads to better solutions.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:07 PM   #42
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Honestly, I didn't care for the religious aspect of the boyscouts so when my son didn't want to sign up for another year (we did it for 2 years) I didn't put any pressure on him to stick with it. BTW, he plays basketball too and I have pressured him to stick with that. Lest anyone think I don't push him enough.

The fact that one of the troop leaders was molesting his daughters made the decision a slam dunk.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:20 PM   #43
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..
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:23 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by zsdersw View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/08/us/cal...html?hpt=hp_c3

Obviously, the Boy Scouts.. as a private organization.. can set whatever membership rules they want.. so this post isn't about that.

Instead, I'm using the story to ask a question that comes into play all the time in politics:

Would you prefer to be ideologically pure and have few, if any, supporters or would you prefer to make ideological compromises and, as a result, have many supporters?

It's a question facing the Scouts as they double-down on their chosen membership criteria and face the increasing odds of being marginalized and sidelined, but it's also a question for all of you.
Yes they can, but the should no longer get funds from state/local govt if they discriminate, religious or not.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:34 PM   #45
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There are areas where compromise is possible, and there are areas where it is not. If the price for standing up for your principles is that you end up without support from others, so be it, then that's the price you have to pay.

Of course, there's also nothing wrong with re-evaluating your own principles to make sure you believe them and want to stand by them.

It's very similar to when people call for the church to "update it's beliefs or get marginalized". That's plain stupid. If you believe something, you stand by it, and if nobody else wants to join you in that belief, that's fine. You don't change your beliefs to suit someone elses opinion.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:11 PM   #46
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There are areas where compromise is possible, and there are areas where it is not. If the price for standing up for your principles is that you end up without support from others, so be it, then that's the price you have to pay.

Of course, there's also nothing wrong with re-evaluating your own principles to make sure you believe them and want to stand by them.

It's very similar to when people call for the church to "update it's beliefs or get marginalized". That's plain stupid. If you believe something, you stand by it, and if nobody else wants to join you in that belief, that's fine. You don't change your beliefs to suit someone elses opinion.
Well, there is no consequence if someone merely disagrees with and doesn't share your personal beliefs. There are, however, consequences to having and broadcasting fringe beliefs. Organizations like the Boy Scouts and various churches depend on money. If these organizations face significant reductions in funding because they don't reevaluate their beliefs, well, that's a cost that must be endured. The question becomes: what is the cost of standing by unpopular or scantly supported beliefs and is it worth paying or is reevaluation of those beliefs justifiable in order to keep the organization afloat?

Personal beliefs can also be costly. We may find ourselves with few or no friends and have an extremely difficult time finding a mate and family relationships can be strained. Beliefs can cost us financially, too. The question we must ask ourselves is whether we can justify having those beliefs.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:41 PM   #47
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Woah a sec, possum.. I hope you're not saying that tolerance is linked to not killing people.

As long as they aren't trying to force, via law, their views on you then they are indeed tolerant. To be tolerant doesn't mean letting openly and active homosexuals be an active part of and get married in their Church, either. Some Churches have standards, and that's actually commendable. It's not a discrimination thing, though it's normally championed that way.
Well, tolerance certainly starts with not killing people. Hopefully it goes a bit beyond that minimum.

I agree with your definition of tolerance. Churches should be free to not accept gays if they want, as long as it's not government discriminating.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:58 PM   #48
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Since when did you not accepting something make you intolerant, or is that a bigoted-blanket way to [wrongly] lable all Chrisitians?

I can see why homosexuals don't mix well with reliigion in general. "You don't accept homosexuality based on your "holy book", you're intolerant"... no matter how many Christians are doctors, lawayers, cops, or perform many a civil/medical/legal service for homosexuals world-wide, without them even being aware that a religious person in doing it!

..or is it becasue they want to dictate who's allowed to serve as preists or can get married in their churches?
Perhaps because most Christian/Hindu/Muslim/Jewish doctors, lawyers, etc. are able to separate practicing their beliefs from performing their occupational duties. Does that make those that can't/won't separate their beliefs from their jobs intolerant? Not necessarily although on an individual basis you'd find a significant amount that are. Intolerance is borne of fear and ignorance, and there's more than enough of either of those.

Dictate who can serve as priests or who can get married in a given church? I'm really not sure where you're getting this from but I do see it as a recurring theme in your replies. It's anecdotal but representative: the church where my wife and I were married has always been accepting of and open to LGBT individuals and couples. The individuals/couples who attend/have attended did not demand a louder voice then anyone else in the selection process for priests nor did they work to put homosexuals on the selection committee. In the two years leading up to our marriage there was no push by the LGBT members to not allow heterosexual couples to be married in the church nor has there been any push in the years since. This idea that there's some concerted effort by the LGBT community and their supporters to control church decisions of priest selection and/or allowable marriages within the church is so much bovine scatology.

Back to the OP; as a private organization the BSA can set their own policies. I feel as time goes on they will be marginalized because of their stance on this as well as for other reasons. Can Scout leaders keep their sexual orientations to themselves and still lead, inspire and help guide young boys through the journey to young adulthood? Yes; my leader kept his orientation to himself for 30+ years; the things I learned about sex when in Boy Scouts and Explorers I learned from my fellow troop members and they had nothing to do with homosexuality.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:42 PM   #49
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Well, there is no consequence if someone merely disagrees with and doesn't share your personal beliefs. There are, however, consequences to having and broadcasting fringe beliefs. Organizations like the Boy Scouts and various churches depend on money. If these organizations face significant reductions in funding because they don't reevaluate their beliefs, well, that's a cost that must be endured. The question becomes: what is the cost of standing by unpopular or scantly supported beliefs and is it worth paying or is reevaluation of those beliefs justifiable in order to keep the organization afloat?

Personal beliefs can also be costly. We may find ourselves with few or no friends and have an extremely difficult time finding a mate and family relationships can be strained. Beliefs can cost us financially, too. The question we must ask ourselves is whether we can justify having those beliefs.
No matter how much you may want it to be opposition to SSM is not a fringe belief.

But that raising an interesting question for you. What do you feel is the compromise solution to same-sex marriage?
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:58 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Throckmorton View Post
Christians believe this is the literal word of God himself.
  • KJV: (King James Version): "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."
You've conveniently overlooked . . .

Quote:
If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
(Leviticus 20:10; cf. Deuteronomy 22:22).

So adultery is just as bad as homosexuality. How come Christians hate gays but have no problem with adulterous heterosexuals?
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