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Old 01-09-2013, 04:25 PM   #651
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This thread is so hard to read...
Drink more. Or less. And all will become absolutely positively crystal clear. Maybe.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:29 PM   #652
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Likewise when it was "behold, I bring the world a gift of power-sipping peace that the Pope has christened 'Atom' "...only it sat in a platform that sucked down the juice and the world+dog collectively muttered a "meh" in unison
That was than Medfield is now soon theZ2580 the last of a breed . As Intel goes OoO and 4 cores without ht. The wagons are circled and the indians have all the bullets No way out Silvermont takeing share were haswell will not go.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:11 PM   #653
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Richland's healthy increase in perf/watt should bridge the gap until the big gun shows up in what looks like sometime Q4 when Kaveri with HSA takes over. With Kabini slotting in between Richland/Kaveri and Temash, no wonder AMD seems so confident.

Kevin Lensing, Director of AMD’s Notebook Product Line, exuded a quiet confidence at a briefing at the 2013 CES show

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After hiccups and delays AMD’s APU strategy, which makes the integrated graphics core in the chip an equal partner with the CPU, is starting to gather momentum. Lensing pointed to key design wins for AMD’s APUs, including shiny new laptops and all-in-ones from Vizio, a slick laptop from Asus that’s indistinguishable from a similar Intel-based Ultrabook and HP’s announcement of a budget, touch-based Windows 8 laptop as evidence
http://www.pcworld.com/article/20245...medium=twitter
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:39 PM   #654
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Let me plug this into the GTT (Google Turtle Translator) so the rest of the audience can make some sense of the madness in text:
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You either believe Intel to be the fool, to lie about the capabilities of the product and over-inflate the actual performance characteristics, or you accept them to be the geniuses they have thus far demonstrated time-and-again that they can be and you simply take the Intel information at face value as being true.

Why you folks are wasting your time pedantically debating the semantics of a mere side-show product like the "7W IB" is beyond me when you consider the much bigger fish (Haswell) that Intel is getting ready to pull out of the oven and serve to the market. You guys are missing the forest for the tree here.

Like a boss, Intel is epic and the consequences will never be the same, gg gl and gb
Intel has a history of FUDing heavily in any market they don't want to grow. They FUDed PA RISC/Alpha to death with the upcoming super-awesome Itanium. They FUDed OLPC to near-death with Classmate PC. They're FUDing ARM now to keep people waiting for the next great x86 that's right around the corner and going to be twice as fast at half the power (and yet so far, by the time you can actually buy something, well, I only know one person who has an Atom-based phone, and he bought it because it had the best screen-size-per-dollar).

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This thread is so hard to read...
This forum is much easier to read if you add a very small set of users to your ignore list...unfortunately you have to be logged in to benefit from that feature.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:00 PM   #655
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This so called low 7 watt haswell showing its GT3 "capabilities".

You mean the same one shown pushing out 15watt IVB graphics at the same FPS on that dragon model benchmark?(Uniengine?)
Yes, I saw those. Not impressed. And actually, I think that Haswell was the 10watt one.

You know what other thing Intel has NOT going for them in their iGPU's? Drivers.

What else? Price. You say cheap. I ask, how cheap?
You know how Intel could have'd rocked the tablet market? Scaling Atom.

I like AMD's line up. Seems focused. Sounds smart.
Some people might hate this next comment, but, I am glad that I did not see anything "Vishera". AMD needs to focus on HSA and APU's. That is what they are incredible at.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:42 PM   #656
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Great article here by HardwareCanucks.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum...-examined.html
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:23 PM   #657
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Hold your horses. We haven't seen the numbers yet.
I was referring to the three Jaguar cores vs one Llano.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:41 PM   #658
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Well its a bit unfair to compare size given that Jaguar is on a smaller process.
Even in 32nm you could fit almost three(3) jaguar cores in the same space as one Llano core.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:56 PM   #659
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Lets have a look at core sizes

Bobcat = 4.6mm2 @ 40nm
Llano = 9,69mm2 @ 32nm
Jaguar = 3.1mm2 @ 28nm

Hell, you could install three(3) Jaguar cores in the same space of a Llano core. It will have almost the same IPC as Llano and 3x times the performance(MT) at the same die size at the same frequency.

Sandybridge = 16,5mm2 @ 32nm (you can install 5.3 Jaguar cores)
Haswell = 14,5mm2 @ 22nm (you can install 4.6 Jaguar cores)

Anyone remembers IvyBridge core size ?? Hans ???
Do you have A15, Krait, and Apple A6 core numbers? From the A6 die shot I'm swagging a little over 4mm^2 on 32nm for a single core.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:27 AM   #660
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Hard to compare apples(no pun intended) to oranges.

For an x86 core, its pretty small.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:43 AM   #661
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shamelessly stolen from B3D

temash running Dirt3 @Full HD - performance settings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJGM7ma3XKY
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:49 AM   #662
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Intel has a history of FUDing heavily in any market they don't want to grow. They FUDed PA RISC/Alpha to death with the upcoming super-awesome Itanium. They FUDed OLPC to near-death with Classmate PC. They're FUDing ARM now to keep people waiting for the next great x86 that's right around the corner and going to be twice as fast at half the power (and yet so far, by the time you can actually buy something, well, I only know one person who has an Atom-based phone, and he bought it because it had the best screen-size-per-dollar).



This forum is much easier to read if you add a very small set of users to your ignore list...unfortunately you have to be logged in to benefit from that feature.
The new Intel 900 phone isn't fuded anything its a real product that kicks butt.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:52 AM   #663
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shamelessly stolen from B3D

temash running Dirt3 @Full HD - performance settings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJGM7ma3XKY
The Demo of the haswell GT3 running against IVb with a NV650m looks much better and seems to be running faster frames Full HD performance setting. same game

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Old 01-10-2013, 07:55 AM   #664
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Does anybody actually play Dirt 3, or is it just used to show off wimpy iGPUs?

Seriously though, that is very impressive. Temash is looking like it is pretty good. I still say no S0ix is a bummer though.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:01 AM   #665
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Oh noes, too much GPU performance. What will we ever do with it. Tell us more about what we need and what Kabini is geared for.
Give me a use-case that needs a lot of GPU power and makes sense to do on a tablet?

Video stuff is dedicated on SOCs and for UI rendering / acceleration, hell you don't need that much. Even intel HD 2000 is overpowered for that.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:08 AM   #666
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This so called low 7 watt haswell showing its GT3 "capabilities".

You mean the same one shown pushing out 15watt IVB graphics at the same FPS on that dragon model benchmark?(Uniengine?)
Yes, I saw those. Not impressed. And actually, I think that Haswell was the 10watt one.

You know what other thing Intel has NOT going for them in their iGPU's? Drivers.

What else? Price. You say cheap. I ask, how cheap?
You know how Intel could have'd rocked the tablet market? Scaling Atom.

I like AMD's line up. Seems focused. Sounds smart.
Some people might hate this next comment, but, I am glad that I did not see anything "Vishera". AMD needs to focus on HSA and APU's. That is what they are incredible at.
You clearly have head in clouds . Atom scaling= Silvermont . Trying to sell the fact intel is hyping and AMD is not . Is a fantasy. Intel has demo of GT3 going up against NV 650m and intel looks rather good .
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:09 AM   #667
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Give me a use-case that needs a lot of GPU power and makes sense to do on a tablet?

Video stuff is dedicated on SOCs and for UI rendering / acceleration, hell you don't need that much. Even intel HD 2000 is overpowered for that.
Driving high res displays, for a start. Apparently even HD4000 graphics make for a jerky experience on the 13" Macbook Pro with Retina:

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The 2.5GHz Core i5 in the 13-inch Pro offers terrific raw CPU performance in benchmarks, running Geekbench at a solid 6700-6800 range, but the integrated Intel HD 4000 graphics chip can struggle driving such a high-resolution display. Oddly, it showed up for me more during day-to-day usage than under any crazy test situation I came up with: RAW files in Aperture scroll around just fine while QuickTime is playing back 1080p movie trailers, but Safari and Chrome both stutter a little while scrolling simple web pages. And they stutter a lot with image-heavy sites like The Verge and Polygon.
http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/1/35...display-review

And Vizio have explicitly said that they went with Hondo for their 1080p tablet because Clover Trail couldn't drive the display satisfactorily: http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/7/384...-powered-1080p

The iPad 4 already has a 20481536 screen. If Windows 8 tablets want to compete against that, they're going to need beefy graphics.

And this isn't even touching on gaming...
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:11 AM   #668
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You clearly have head in clouds . Atom scaling= Silvermont . Trying to sell the fact intel is hyping and AMD is not . Is a fantasy. Intel has demo of GT3 going up against NV 650m and intel looks rather good .
Yeah, that GT3e demo was pretty impressive (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6600/i...eforce-gt-650m , if anyone missed it)! That embedded DRAM really makes a difference, it seems. Intel only promised that level of performance in a laptop chassis though, so expect them to have to tone down the performance a lot to get it to fit into a tablet level TDP.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:15 AM   #669
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The Demo of the haswell GT3 running against IVb with a NV650m looks much better and seems to be running faster frames Full HD performance setting. same game
wait ... gt3's in a tablet ?

It's not so you're comparing a intel's gt3 vs amd's tablet soc .... *facepalm*

for your information intel's valleyview (bay trail) will have only 4 execution unit's compared to gt3's 40

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Old 01-10-2013, 08:17 AM   #670
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Intel has a history of FUDing heavily in any market they don't want to grow. They FUDed PA RISC/Alpha to death with the upcoming super-awesome Itanium. They FUDed OLPC to near-death with Classmate PC. They're FUDing ARM now to keep people waiting for the next great x86 that's right around the corner and going to be twice as fast at half the power (and yet so far, by the time you can actually buy something, well, I only know one person who has an Atom-based phone, and he bought it because it had the best screen-size-per-dollar).
Oh yeah, I totally agree

I remember the long uphill battle that was the 64bit transition on the desktop, Intel was dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century in taking AMD's lead on x86-64.

And because of Intel's market dominance, Microsoft was equally slow and resistant to the notion of getting a fully vetted and functional 64bit to market

I consider Win7 x64 to really be the first 64bit consumer windows OS that was treated as being on-par with its 32bit sibling. Even 64bit Vista had its less-polished aspects compared to 32bit Vista. That would not have happened in my opinion if Intel had been onboard with 64bit as early as AMD was, because if they were then they would have been pushing Microsoft to have have Vista (or even possibly XP) 64-bit done and done at the time...instead of the essentially beta-ware that AMD had to try and upsell their 64bit processors with.

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Even in 32nm you could fit almost three(3) jaguar cores in the same space as one Llano core.
Careful there, that same thinking also leads you to observe and conclude that had AMD just substituted Llano cores for Bulldozer cores then they would have had much better IPC and at a much lower development cost versus what they elected to do...there are no shortage of opportunities to second-guess the seemingly silly decisions AMD's upper management made over the past 5-6 yrs.

I have long been a proponent of AMD leveraging their Brazos line (be it Brazos, Hondo, Wichita, Jaguar, etc) to create a veritable "sea of cores" for server apps that are highly threaded (like cloud processing, VM, and course-grained HPC) - akin to Intel's Phi. JFAMD was steadfast in saying it wouldn't fly, but I think we all can see the writing is on the wall in terms of where AMD could go with this technology should they so choose.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:32 AM   #671
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Driving high res displays, for a start. Apparently even HD4000 graphics make for a jerky experience on the 13" Macbook Pro with Retina:



http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/1/35...display-review

And Vizio have explicitly said that they went with Hondo for their 1080p tablet because Clover Trail couldn't drive the display satisfactorily: http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/7/384...-powered-1080p

The iPad 4 already has a 20481536 screen. If Windows 8 tablets want to compete against that, they're going to need beefy graphics.

And this isn't even touching on gaming...

These Amd products aren't out yet . Intel new products aren't out yet , Yet you want to ignor what the GT3 can do. You would rather compare to old Intel product that says it all.
I want to compare to old intel not new . Even tho information is available on intels new products with demos . Temash is going against 2 intel products . The Haswell SoC dual core and the Silvermont . Haswell will use MAYBE slightly more power depends on SOiX. Likely 30 dollars more for the core and offer all around better performance including graphics . The Silvermont will offer way less power useage Alot less massive amount . As for intels new OoO for Silvermont I will wait on performance . But I would say better than temash in compute but not in graphics at a lower price than Temash . Temash is setting in no mans land

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Old 01-10-2013, 08:45 AM   #672
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Yeah, that GT3e demo was pretty impressive (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6600/i...eforce-gt-650m , if anyone missed it)! That embedded DRAM really makes a difference, it seems. Intel only promised that level of performance in a laptop chassis though, so expect them to have to tone down the performance a lot to get it to fit into a tablet level TDP.
The 7 watt haswell is GT3 intel needs only get it to market. Its only 2 cores . I really thought intel would have to go single core with GT3 to get to tablet level its a nice surprise Yes I know what the demo said , This was not the haswell Soc chip. But that doesn't change MY expectations

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Old 01-10-2013, 08:55 AM   #673
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I have long been a proponent of AMD leveraging their Brazos line (be it Brazos, Hondo, Wichita, Jaguar, etc) to create a veritable "sea of cores" for server apps that are highly threaded (like cloud processing, VM, and course-grained HPC) - akin to Intel's Phi. JFAMD was steadfast in saying it wouldn't fly, but I think we all can see the writing is on the wall in terms of where AMD could go with this technology should they so choose.
Given the Bulldozer seems to very thermally constrained to hit the high clock speeds it was designed for in the high core server environment it would seem it would make much more sense to use a core designed to be small and have low power consumption.

Especially given that the IPC of Jaguar is likely to be very close to Bulldozer.

It looks like a 2.8GHz Piledriver Opteron with 16 cores takes 140W

Say a Quad core 1.8 Jaguar takes 18W with GPU

Assuming linear scaling a 16 core Jaguar would take 72W. And this is likely to be high since you don't need to quadruple the GPU.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:04 AM   #674
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These Amd products aren't out yet . Intel new products aren't out yet , Yet you want to ignor what the GT3 can do. You would rather compare to old Intel product that says it all.
Nah, I'm not ignoring GT3- I'm just pointing out that better integrated graphics were necessary. Intel clearly agree, based on the big improvements that they've been making. I'm looking forward to seeing how Haswell does, and I already predict that NVidia will be out of all next-gen Apple products.

Don't get too excited about the fact that GT3 is coming to tablets, though- it's going to be a big boost, no doubt about that, but it's not going to be as fast as the laptop versions. The current HD4000 performs pretty differently in high TDP and low TDP chips: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5878/m...lv-vs-quadcore And in a 10W or lower chip, they'll have to bump it down again. So it's not going to do as well in a tablet as it would in a laptop. But it should still perform well, and I certainly imagine better than Temash. (I also expect it to be quite a lot bigger and more expensive than Temash, of course.)
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:05 AM   #675
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And because of Intel's market dominance, Microsoft was equally slow and resistant to the notion of getting a fully vetted and functional 64bit to market
Thats a laugh MS worked hand in hand with AMD on 64bit. AT least it clear it was AMD and MS that kept the X86 bagage alive , Even tho VLIW is the future.
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