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Old 01-09-2013, 01:53 PM   #426
A5
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Originally Posted by GillyBillyDilly View Post
I read somewhere the other day that x86 arch has peaked. That's why we have been seeing yearly improvements of only 5-10 percent for the past decade or so, whereas ARM has just started rising and we are seeing yearly improvements of about 100 percent, and if this trend continues it won't be long until they reach acceptable performance for heavy tasks too. So unless Intel has some tricks up it's sleeves, it won't be as simple as you predict to kick off ARM.
This is utter nonsense. The reason this is true right now is because ARM is adding features that x86 CPUs added in the early 90s (OoOE, superscalar multi-issue cores, etc).

ARM and Intel are just taking different routes to the same endpoint - ARM is adding features to smaller low-power designs as processes improve and Intel is using process improvement (which, by the way, they are the undisputed world leader at) to reduce the power consumption of their high-performance cores.

In a silicon race, there's no way I'm going to bet against Intel.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:30 PM   #427
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How so?

I'd be more than happy to complain to you about my Droid 2. The thing is a piece of garbage that consistently chokes while web browsing. Definitely should have done my research first... could have waited a month and gotten something much better.
you know, according to mobile iron there are 4,000 different versions of android in the wild ( great thing allowing people to compile their own stuff). Did you try a different one?

my yum cha $250 dual cortex A9 running driod 4 has absolutely no problems with media consumption (web/youtube/DLNA/etc) and the OS is very snappy.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:31 PM   #428
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Yes dumping is illegal in the U.S. ...


That being said, it isn't dumping to:

1) Price lower than you normally would (Intel's margin requirements are self-imposed, not by law)


2) Price lower than your competitor's costs (only your own).

Very difficult case to win, because you must ALSO prove that they will be about to recoup losses from selling at a loss. The government does not like to attack firms over pricing too low, only too high

So no, Intel could not sell $1 3770Ks, but they could probably price them low enough to drive AMD out of business (but it probably isn't worth it for them to do so, and some would argue they already are).
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:34 PM   #429
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This is utter nonsense. The reason this is true right now is because ARM is adding features that x86 CPUs added in the early 90s (OoOE, superscalar multi-issue cores, etc).

ARM and Intel are just taking different routes to the same endpoint - ARM is adding features to smaller low-power designs as processes improve and Intel is using process improvement (which, by the way, they are the undisputed world leader at) to reduce the power consumption of their high-performance cores.

In a silicon race, there's no way I'm going to bet against Intel.
Agreed. If there's one player I will surely place my bets on, it will be Intel. They've come too far down the road and have battle scars from events some companies do not live through; they know what they are doing and albeit the timing may be off, their technical know-how and vast resource pool will make them a force to be reckoned with.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:26 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by A5 View Post
This is utter nonsense. The reason this is true right now is because ARM is adding features that x86 CPUs added in the early 90s (OoOE, superscalar multi-issue cores, etc).

ARM and Intel are just taking different routes to the same endpoint - ARM is adding features to smaller low-power designs as processes improve and Intel is using process improvement (which, by the way, they are the undisputed world leader at) to reduce the power consumption of their high-performance cores.

In a silicon race, there's no way I'm going to bet against Intel.
Aside from admiring your courage to call my post utter nonesense, I don't see anything in your post which rejects the point I was making. Sorry, but

EDIT:
Oh, I see in your sig, you are moderatror protected.

Last edited by GillyBillyDilly; 01-09-2013 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:12 PM   #431
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Wasn't silvermont delayed to 2014?
Intel said in their talk that it's still a 2013 product, so hopefully it'll make it out this year.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:43 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by GillyBillyDilly View Post
EDIT:
Oh, I see in your sig, you are moderatror protected.
Not sure what that is intended to mean, but of the multitude of ways I can interpret it I can think of none that would actually be accurate or reflective of the situation.

There is no such thing as a "moderator protected" member in these forums. We hate everyone equally and are forever spoiling for the opportunity to bust y'alls asses Go ahead, make my day!
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:05 PM   #433
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Not sure what that is intended to mean, but of the multitude of ways I can interpret it I can think of none that would actually be accurate or reflective of the situation.

There is no such thing as a "moderator protected" member in these forums. We hate everyone equally and are forever spoiling for the opportunity to bust y'alls asses Go ahead, make my day!
YA I found it hard to believe he did not comprehind the meaning ,was abit revealing. But than it would be easy for me to understand the intent.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:20 PM   #434
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http://www.hardware.fr/news/12854/iv...n-est-tdp.html
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:20 PM   #435
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Not sure what that is intended to mean, but of the multitude of ways I can interpret it I can think of none that would actually be accurate or reflective of the situation.

There is no such thing as a "moderator protected" member in these forums. We hate everyone equally and are forever spoiling for the opportunity to bust y'alls asses Go ahead, make my day!


Sorry, I meant him no harm. Please have mercy with me.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:53 PM   #436
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Aside from admiring your courage to call my post utter nonesense, I don't see anything in your post which rejects the point I was making. Sorry, but

EDIT:
Oh, I see in your sig, you are moderatror protected.
Err?

He stated pretty plainly that the reason ARM is making large gains is because they are adding features to their CPUs that x86 has had for a decade or longer.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:14 PM   #437
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Err?

He stated pretty plainly that the reason ARM is making large gains is because they are adding features to their CPUs that x86 has had for a decade or longer.
That is fine with me. So what? I said ARM is making large strides, how they are doing it is up to them. What is utterly nonsensical there?
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:18 PM   #438
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you know, according to mobile iron there are 4,000 different versions of android in the wild ( great thing allowing people to compile their own stuff). Did you try a different one?
Yes.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:23 PM   #439
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So what if ARM is adding features that the x86 line had? That's why Intel worries. ARM chips are real competition.

In the end, its all about the products. And since there is no popular desktop OS's on ARM CPU's yet, neither should be compared.

If we talking about devices tho, we will find out soon how these low watt Haswell's perform. But to think that ARM chips aren't competition is completely absurd.
Obviously, NVIDIA, Qualcomm and Apple think that they are. All building custom ARM chips, getting away from x86 AND Intel. And then you have AMD also.
You got three companies, against Intel specifically. Then you got Qualcomm and Samsung who's been at this game since forever.

Intel might be king in x86, but not devices.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:32 PM   #440
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Sorry, I meant him no harm. Please have mercy with me.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:52 PM   #441
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So what if ARM is adding features that the x86 line had? That's why Intel worries. ARM chips are real competition.

In the end, its all about the products. And since there is no popular desktop OS's on ARM CPU's yet, neither should be compared.

If we talking about devices tho, we will find out soon how these low watt Haswell's perform. But to think that ARM chips aren't competition is completely absurd.
Obviously, NVIDIA, Qualcomm and Apple think that they are. All building custom ARM chips, getting away from x86 AND Intel. And then you have AMD also.
You got three companies, against Intel specifically. Then you got Qualcomm and Samsung who's been at this game since forever.

Intel might be king in x86, but not devices.
Haswell is supposed to be Intel's coming ace. a low watt Haswell beating ARM by 200 percent would be a disaster for Intel, because ARM would catch up and overtake Intel in two to three years, and Intel would once again be stuck at 5-10 percent yearly improvements. Like I said before, Intel needs something very special win this game.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:55 PM   #442
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Haswell is supposed to be Intel's coming ace. a low watt Haswell beating ARM by 200 percent would be a disaster for Intel, because ARM would catch up and overtake Intel in two to three years, and Intel would once again be stuck at 5-10 percent yearly improvements. Like I said before, Intel needs something very special win this game.
I don't think you get how processor design works.

Hint: Intel's fabrication lead will prevent the scenario you describe from happening.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:04 PM   #443
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I don't think you get how processor design works.

Hint: Intel's fabrication lead will prevent the scenario you describe from happening.
No. I don't understand how processor design works. But some people here think beating ARM is going to be a peace of cake for Intel and I understand that is not correct.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:21 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by GillyBillyDilly View Post
No. I don't understand how processor design works. But some people here think beating ARM is going to be a peace of cake for Intel and I understand that is not correct.
No one said it will be a piece of cake but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

For example, there was always skepticism about whether or not microprocessors would be able to effectively scale to our current levels while still following Moore's Law. However, the truth remains in that history has shown us that Intel is highly capable of conquering what often times appears to be nearly insurmountable odds. Intel's massive R&D budget and their team of brilliant scientists and engineers are nothing to be scoffed at. If you were to assume that ARM and Intel's engineering teams were of equal expertise,
at a given point in time, Intel's R&D budget and fabrication infrastructure advantage alone would give them the immediate edge.

Long story short: Sure, there will be a challenge, but such challenges are expected, especially if you are Intel.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:12 PM   #445
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3 years down the road when the industry is on a tweaked 20nm and Intel is on 10nm, will there be any question who will win?
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:18 PM   #446
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Haswell is supposed to be Intel's coming ace. a low watt Haswell beating ARM by 200 percent would be a disaster for Intel, because ARM would catch up and overtake Intel in two to three years, and Intel would once again be stuck at 5-10 percent yearly improvements. Like I said before, Intel needs something very special win this game.
ARM isn't an exception to the laws of physics or anything. They'll hit the same frequency wall that Intel and AMD have hit.

I just don't see ARM winning this war. Intel is too good at what they do.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:40 PM   #447
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That is fine with me. So what? I said ARM is making large strides, how they are doing it is up to them. What is utterly nonsensical there?
Once they are done doing the known techniques to improve performance, they will hit the same wall the big boys have.

It will come down to hand drawn CPUs engineered by thousands of PhDs and intense research and development to eek out a few more percent. Then the ball is in Intels court. They are a full generation ahead in process technology and that gap is threatening to widen.

It gets harder and harder to improve performance once you reach the cutting edge of processing.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:16 AM   #448
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Really, how many people compain about the perf of there smart phones or andriod tablets/ipad. There seems to be lots of issue inventing here, phone and tablets are largely an information ingesting device there performance has been "adequate" since about the 3GS.

Or better yet what is this "lack" of CPU power stopping?

I cant wait for surface pro, yet im perfectly aware ( part of my job is designing BYOD infrastructure and polices) that my needs are in the vast minority.
People will complain if the start inserting images into a word processor and it lags like crazy. Or try and play games and do other stuff at the same time

The reason people don't complain about their smartphones is because they don't expect it to behave like their desktop or laptop, and nor do they use it like one.

Even a budget intel cpu blows any ARM CPU out the water. And imo, once intel starts shrinking their cpus to 14nm, 10nm etc Intel will really be able to reduce the power consumption of their CPUs
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:39 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by GillyBillyDilly View Post
Haswell is supposed to be Intel's coming ace. a low watt Haswell beating ARM by 200 percent would be a disaster for Intel, because ARM would catch up and overtake Intel in two to three years, and Intel would once again be stuck at 5-10 percent yearly improvements. Like I said before, Intel needs something very special win this game.
Utter nonsense
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:38 AM   #450
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No one said it will be a piece of cake but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

For example, there was always skepticism about whether or not microprocessors would be able to effectively scale to our current levels while still following Moore's Law. However, the truth remains in that history has shown us that Intel is highly capable of conquering what often times appears to be nearly insurmountable odds. Intel's massive R&D budget and their team of brilliant scientists and engineers are nothing to be scoffed at. If you were to assume that ARM and Intel's engineering teams were of equal expertise,
at a given point in time, Intel's R&D budget and fabrication infrastructure advantage alone would give them the immediate edge.

Long story short: Sure, there will be a challenge, but such challenges are expected, especially if you are Intel.
R&D budget,telented engineers and fabrication lead mean nothing and I mean nothing, if not properly used. I said somewhere in this thread give a genius dirt and he will turn it into gold. Now give that gold to a fool and he will lose it within an hour or two.

Both companies with the given circumstances have equal chances. It will depend on how well they are executed.
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