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Old 01-09-2013, 08:10 PM   #1
Fmr12B
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Default Subaru BRZ & Scion FR-S Sales in 2012

For those who care -

Scion FR-S - 11,417
Subaru BRZ - 4,144

FR-S by month:
May - 86
June - 2684
July - 1649
August - 1,913
Sept - 1133
Oct - 1107
Nov - 1350
Dec - 1495


Mazda MX-5 Miata - 6305
Porsche Cayman - 462
Porsche Boxster - 2894

Honda CR-Z sold a whopping 4192 units during 2012. The Hyundai Veloster sold 34,862.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:17 PM   #2
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Interesting. I thought production of the FRS and BRZ was split more evenly. Guess not since dealers are still marking up BRZ's.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:51 PM   #3
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Interesting. I thought production of the FRS and BRZ was split more evenly. Guess not since dealers are still marking up BRZ's.
Production may be. But I think Subaru under estimated the demand and allocated more of their production run to other countries.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:22 PM   #4
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Production may be. But I think Subaru under estimated the demand and allocated more of their production run to other countries.
Canada FR-S Sales Figures -

2012 - 1,470

Canada BRZ Sales Figures -

2012 - 468
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:37 PM   #5
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I feel that the scion crowd is inherently different than the Suby crowd in that the car is marketed to the younger generations and they probably lean towards Scion more than Suby especially when given the choice of essentially the same car.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:58 PM   #6
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Yep, Subaru just does not have the target market for that car. The younger people wanting a sporty car are gonna go WRX. That's the only thing that's going to get bought by someone who's not already a 'Subaru person.' And said Subaru people want the Impreza, Legacy, or Forester; not a two-door, RWD, kinda-sorta sports car.

It might fill a niche for Scion, though. All younger buyers there. And some might like the brand (and 'Toyota' dependability- remember that your average buyer probably has no idea who's actually designing/building parts of their car) but want a step up from the tC.

It really needs more power, though. Even though it's pretty light (27-2800lbs or so IIRC), a torqueless 200hp engine isn't quite enough. Call it a case of 'RX8 syndrome.'
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:57 AM   #7
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200hp is fine for the car. It's not fast but it's not slow. The point of the car was never about HP, it was about having a good handling RWD sporty coupe that was priced right for what it offered.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:31 AM   #8
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200hp is fine for the car. It's not fast but it's not slow. The point of the car was never about HP, it was about having a good handling RWD sporty coupe that was priced right for what it offered.
Agree. Don't think future gens will crank out that much HP because it will just add price. Ie, no turbo.

I am excited to see this engine with the new designed turbo and 6-speed tranny in the upcoming redesign of the wrx though.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:26 AM   #9
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Interesting. In the past year, I've only seen TWO of these in the rich DC area and both have been the BRZ/Subaru model.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:52 AM   #10
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200hp is fine for the car. It's not fast but it's not slow. The point of the car was never about HP, it was about having a good handling RWD sporty coupe that was priced right for what it offered.

A car with a flatter torque curve feels faster than a peaky one in normal driving though. I bet the BRZ feels slow unless you drive it hard
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:56 AM   #11
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Interesting. In the past year, I've only seen TWO of these in the rich DC area and both have been the BRZ/Subaru model.
I've seen a number of them on the roads around SoCal. Both flavors.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:25 AM   #12
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A car with a flatter torque curve feels faster than a peaky one in normal driving though. I bet the BRZ feels slow unless you drive it hard
You can definitely tell that a torque curve exists in the car but they have tunes out there to correct it to some degree. It feels slow at the low end for sure (<~3k).
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:54 AM   #13
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haven't seen a single on on the roads in/around pittsburgh...surprising.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:56 AM   #14
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I have only seen the scion frs around. There's only 1 subaru dealership close to me and they don't even have the brz there -__-
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:12 AM   #15
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Re: power

It's enough HP...going by the peak number alone. But I really meant it when I compared it to the RX8. It has to rev like hell and your average four cylinder makes the same amount of torque at a lower RPM.

I doubt that car would feel much faster than my ~150hp ~150ftlb I4 Mazda. Which is okay...I wouldn't mind a low-powered, good-handling RWD car. I wouldn't pay an ~8k premium for it, though. And when it comes to sporty cars selling, power is in style.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:11 PM   #16
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The car is targeted at younger buyers, many of whom don't track their vehicles and compared to the WRX, the BRZ is simply too slow. They should have put a 2 liter turbo in it as the only option. ~220 hp/tq with a nice flat turbo curve in such a light car would have made it interesting I think to people shopping WRX's, Genesis, MS3, etc.

EDIT: Even with a turbo I would still go for a WRX due to the enhanced practicality (hatch, 4 useable seats, awd).
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:26 PM   #17
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When people say they wanted the car to have more power they have to remember that you'd be looking at paying quite a bit more for one with a turbo and Subaru/Toyota were trying to avoid cracking the 30k ceiling. Back when this car was first talked about they were mentioning it being in the low 20's...then it went to mid 20's when the design/specs were laid out and then in the end with the demand and low supply you're seeing markups that push the car over 30k as is.

The BRZ Limited is 27,495 MSRP (or at least that's what I paid when I got mine). That has all the options and everything and I was lucky enough to pre-order it and get it locked in at that price summer of last year. Some dealers see fit to charge a premium for having this car on their lot.

Yes, I think we'd all like more power out of the car but if you had to pay ~35k to get around or a bit above 250hp with a good amount of torque...no one would still be looking at this car for that price.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:37 PM   #18
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Glass half full/glass half empty debate.

You're saying all the RWD cars with more power are around 30k or more. I'm saying I4 cars under 20k are almost as powerful.

e.g. Scion's own tC is 180hp and 173ftlbs (@4100rpm). 20k. Ford Focus and Mazda3 are both somewhere in the 150/150 neighborhood, again, with peak torque at about 4000rpm. Under 20k.

The Toyotaru makes about the same torque...at 6600rpm. For 26k.

How can it cost that much more to make a car RWD? They should've just used a normal I4 and tried to hit a 20k base. Then they'd have their very own market segment with an economy RWD car.

I'd like to see the BRZ/FRS on a track with a C1 car (Focus/3). I think a competent FWD would hold its own. Perhaps I'm underestimating it.

edit: The skidpad numbers for the titular cars are pretty impressive. I'm seeing .92g repeated a lot, but I dunno if that's a test number or just advertised. The mentioned front-drivers are around .85 in normal trim, I think. Closer to .90 as ST/MS3.

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Old 01-10-2013, 02:22 PM   #19
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Miata cost nearly as much.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:22 PM   #20
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The FA20 is going to be the new EJ25 for most current and future model Subarus with some having/getting turbos. It made sense to use the new gen engine in a car that was, for all intents and purposes, developed by Subaru. Toyota did the body styling and insisted that the fuel injection systems be D4S (which I guess is a bastard to tune with and nobody outside of Toyota wanted to use).

The car is inherently more expensive since they're being made and shipped from the new factory in Japan for which I can't recall the name. They don't have the benefit of being able to produce them at factories within the U.S. and then just distribute them straight to dealers.

I drive like a bastard and still average 25mpg on my worst days.

Knowing what the interior looks like in the FR-S I don't even want to imagine what it would be if they had somehow managed to cut costs over the current model. That's the main reason I went for the Subaru...it just looks *so* much better.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:40 PM   #21
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Based on the pictures on their websites, the two look fairly similar in the interior aside from the center dash
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:15 PM   #22
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Does anybody else think the rear tail light assembly for the BRZ looks fairly similar to the 2006 bmw Z4?
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:21 PM   #23
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How can it cost that much more to make a car RWD? They should've just used a normal I4 and tried to hit a 20k base. Then they'd have their very own market segment with an economy RWD car.
Its all economy of scale. How many of these cars are sold compared to a Focus/Civic/etc. It inherently costs more since it shares very little with any other cars sold by Toyota/Subaru. Its the same reason the Miata costs what it does.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:22 PM   #24
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I'd like to see the BRZ/FRS on a track with a C1 car (Focus/3). I think a competent FWD would hold its own. Perhaps I'm underestimating it.
Car&Driver Lightning Lap - BRZ was 2.8 seconds faster than Focus ST http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2293154

They spent all the money on the chassis development and its a niche car with few sales so the price just has to be higher for them to eventually break even. I doubt they sell 20K units combined in FY'13.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:31 PM   #25
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Based on the pictures on their websites, the two look fairly similar in the interior aside from the center dash
Different HVAC controls, cloth vs. alcantra depending on trim level of Subaru, touchscreen GPS vs. nothing in the FR-S, heated seats (again, dependent on trim level), and I think maybe a few more minor things. The FR-S is definitely meant as more of a track car due to having the bare minimum.
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