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Old 01-09-2013, 11:40 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by inf64 View Post
Yeah intel will price ULV Haswell as peanuts and will say goodbye to completely new Atom lineup which will look like overpriced garbage next to it? Hmm seems legit.
The only thing that makes it reasonable Jaguar can match Llano CPU wise is that Llano and trinity suck anyway in terms of IPC (and how much die space/ performance) . So that would not be that much of a surprise but I still doubt it. And 4 slow cores suck. 2 faster one would have been way, way better. Can anyone tell my why I need 4 cores on a tablet? 3 of them will go unused when rendering web pages so...don't get it.

Atom is sub 2 W. Which is a completely different Market than ULV haswell will serve. And with Atom you pay for the low power usage (at reasonable performance) and not good performance.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:03 PM   #627
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The only thing that makes it reasonable Jaguar can match Llano CPU wise is that Llano and trinity suck anyway in terms of IPC (and how much die space/ performance) .
.

Llano has roughly 6% better IPC than previous AMD cores
and in perfs/mm2 it is better than either BD , SB or IB.


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Can anyone tell my why I need 4 cores on a tablet? 3 of them will go unused when rendering web pages so...don't get it.
To shut down the unused cores and save power
and keep exe ressources adequated with the task ,
so this multicore CPU has finer granularity in power
saving management than a dual core.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:20 PM   #628
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I'd hold hyping up the GT3 iGPU, which you obsessively do, until we actually get more info.

Unless you have actual info about the GT3 and want to share it with us. How many EU's? What frequency will it be?
I already posted demoes of haswell Gt3 running @ 8 watts. Its you people who refuse to except the facts intel has already presented by building this false price wall. This chip was designed for just this . Same as dothan . Its also designed for the 22nm process. Everthing is right out in the open yet you refuse to except the facts. Those demoes are at 1920x1080 high detail Big monitors . Anand talked about haswell scaling into phone territory in an article . and positivly broadwell. You people just won't except the trus facts same as happened in 2006
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:22 PM   #629
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I already posted demoes of haswell Gt3 running @ 8 watts. Its you people who refuse to except the facts intel has already presented by building this false price wall. This chip was designed for just this . Same as dothan . Its also designed for the 22nm process. Everthing is right out in the open yet you refuse to except the facts. Those demoes are at 1920x1080 high detail Big monitors . Anand talked about haswell scaling into phone territory in an article . and positivly broadwell. You people just won't except the trus facts same as happened in 2006
Is Intel about the "haswell the market"
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:48 PM   #630
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I already posted demoes of haswell Gt3 running @ 8 watts. Its you people who refuse to except the facts intel has already presented by building this false price wall. This chip was designed for just this . Same as dothan . Its also designed for the 22nm process. Everthing is right out in the open yet you refuse to except the facts. Those demoes are at 1920x1080 high detail Big monitors . Anand talked about haswell scaling into phone territory in an article . and positivly broadwell. You people just won't except the trus facts same as happened in 2006
Uh huh. I do believe we've heard the same chatter over the past few years about Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge graphics. With all that graphics prowess you'd think that Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo would be falling all over themselves trying to get it into their next gen consoles. Instead they chose AMD. It'll be interesting to see the hardware there for sure. Kabini? Kaveri? HSA? Custom silicon?
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:50 PM   #631
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Is Intel about the "haswell the market"
IDC If you believe Intel is lieing about haswells specs . Than no. If you think intel the market leader would pull such a blounder. Than no because stupid people couldn't pull this off.
I don't believe Intel would hype this , You already Know the old info on the haswelll Soc chip with soix . You guys Keep debating IVB spec . Well look at the Haswell 2core Soc chip . All i can say is your debating IB at 7 watts and this SoC is starring squarely in the face . I would SAY ya! HasWellED
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:09 PM   #632
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IDC If you believe Intel is lieing about haswells specs . Than no. If you think intel the market leader would pull such a blounder. Than no because stupid people couldn't pull this off.
I don't believe Intel would hype this , You already Know the old info on the haswelll Soc chip with soix . You guys Keep debating IVB spec . Well look at the Haswell 2core Soc chip . All i can say is your debating IB at 7 watts and this SoC is starring squarely in the face . I would SAY ya! HasWellED
My brain hurts...
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:11 PM   #633
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IDC If you believe Intel is lieing about haswells specs . Than no. If you think intel the market leader would pull such a blounder. Than no because stupid people couldn't pull this off.
I don't believe Intel would hype this , You already Know the old info on the haswelll Soc chip with soix . You guys Keep debating IVB spec . Well look at the Haswell 2core Soc chip . All i can say is your debating IB at 7 watts and this SoC is starring squarely in the face . I would SAY ya! HasWellED
What is this I don't even.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:19 PM   #634
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Yep guys,don't even try to grasp it since you will fail and huge headache comes after that
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:35 PM   #635
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IDC If you believe Intel is lieing about haswells specs . Than no. If you think intel the market leader would pull such a blounder. Than no because stupid people couldn't pull this off.
I don't believe Intel would hype this , You already Know the old info on the haswelll Soc chip with soix . You guys Keep debating IVB spec . Well look at the Haswell 2core Soc chip . All i can say is your debating IB at 7 watts and this SoC is starring squarely in the face . I would SAY ya! HasWellED
Let me plug this into the GTT (Google Turtle Translator) so the rest of the audience can make some sense of the madness in text:

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IDC, you have two ways to interpret what Intel is saying and doing here.

You either believe Intel to be the fool, to lie about the capabilities of the product and over-inflate the actual performance characteristics, or you accept them to be the geniuses they have thus far demonstrated time-and-again that they can be and you simply take the Intel information at face value as being true.

Why you folks are wasting your time pedantically debating the semantics of a mere side-show product like the "7W IB" is beyond me when you consider the much bigger fish (Haswell) that Intel is getting ready to pull out of the oven and serve to the market. You guys are missing the forest for the tree here.

Like a boss, Intel is epic and the consequences will never be the same, gg gl and gb
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:43 PM   #636
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Let me plug this into the GTT (Google Turtle Translator) so the rest of the audience can make some sense of the madness in text:
I find it easier to read Turtle after a few pints, for some reason.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:12 PM   #637
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I think there are a few "furthermores" missing in that translation.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:22 PM   #638
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Let me plug this into the GTT (Google Turtle Translator) so the rest of the audience can make some sense of the madness in text:
That was pure Art . You however didn't answer the question you clearly understand , Well DO YA Punk! LOL my best clint eastwood. Well do ya think there another bullet in that intel gun?
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:29 PM   #639
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IOkay, I'm doing what everyone says not to lol...

Haswell isn't competition to Jaguar, period. No one is debating that it's not a superior product. It certainly is. But Jaguar is designed to be lean, mean, and cheap. 7W ULV Haswell parts are simply the top picks of the litter. There's no way Intel can compete with AMD with that. The only competition for Jaguar from Intel is Silvermont/Valleyview, and even with a 4EU HD4000 component (Valleyview), it's probably going to be crushed in the graphics performance department.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:39 PM   #640
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IOkay, I'm doing what everyone says not to lol...

Haswell isn't competition to Jaguar, period. No one is debating that it's not a superior product. It certainly is. But Jaguar is designed to be lean, mean, and cheap. 7W ULV Haswell parts are simply the top picks of the litter. There's no way Intel can compete with AMD with that. The only competition for Jaguar from Intel is Silvermont/Valleyview, and even with a 4EU HD4000 component (Valleyview), it's probably going to be crushed in the graphics performance department.
Spread all the miss information you want . The haswell 2 core SoC with SOiX with GT3 is a low power low cost cheap chip . Intel makes this cheap chip . cheaper than what AMD pays for its . Just a fact of life . Your not going to win in this market on margines but on volumn your about to be schooled
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:29 PM   #641
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.
Llano has roughly 6% better IPC than previous AMD cores
and in perfs/mm2 it is better than either BD , SB or IB.


To shut down the unused cores and save power
and keep exe ressources adequated with the task ,
so this multicore CPU has finer granularity in power
saving management than a dual core.
Llano still sucks compared to SB/IB.

Why do i need to cores if they are shut down? And it has been proven that a fast core quickly going back to sleep usually uses less power in total. Especially on a tablet were the main thing will be web page rendering which is single-threaded. And 2 faster cores would most certainly be better for gaming (even though on a tablet I don't consider gaming to be an argument in the first place).

Kabini is geared at "good enough". however you don't need a quad core for that and the GPU is also over powered. My design would be smaller (faster dual core, smaller gpu) and use less power and no one would notice unless some idiot trying to play BF3 on a tablet.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:29 PM   #642
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This thread is so hard to read...
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:40 PM   #643
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idc if you believe intel is lieing about haswells specs . Than no. If you think intel the market leader would pull such a blounder. Than no because stupid people couldn't pull this off.
I don't believe intel would hype this , you already know the old info on the haswelll soc chip with soix . You guys keep debating ivb spec . Well look at the haswell 2core soc chip . All i can say is your debating ib at 7 watts and this soc is starring squarely in the face . I would say ya! Haswelled
lying not lieing.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:51 PM   #644
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Wider and slower uses less power than narrow and fast.

Quad-core arrangements allows the chip to bring a lot (relatively) of throughput to bear without using too much power. In serial workloads where that doesn't work, the chip turns the other cores off and turbo's one or more cores to 'rush to sleep'.

Same thinking behind the GT3 if I'm not mistaken
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:02 PM   #645
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you don't need a quad core for that and the GPU is also over powered
Oh noes, too much GPU performance. What will we ever do with it. Tell us more about what we need and what Kabini is geared for.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:08 PM   #646
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Lets have a look at core sizes

Bobcat = 4.6mm2 @ 40nm
Llano = 9,69mm2 @ 32nm
Jaguar = 3.1mm2 @ 28nm

Hell, you could install three(3) Jaguar cores in the same space of a Llano core. It will have almost the same IPC as Llano and 3x times the performance(MT) at the same die size at the same frequency.

Sandybridge = 16,5mm2 @ 32nm (you can install 5.3 Jaguar cores)
Haswell = 14,5mm2 @ 22nm (you can install 4.6 Jaguar cores)

Anyone remembers IvyBridge core size ?? Hans ???
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:08 PM   #647
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Lets have a look at core sizes

Bobcat = 4.6mm2 @ 40nm
Llano = 9,69mm2 @ 32nm
Jaguar = 3.1mm2 @ 28nm

Hell, you could install three(3) Jaguar cores in the same space of a Llano core. It will have almost the same IPC as Llano and 3x times the performance(MT) at the same die size at the same frequency.

Sandybridge = 16,5mm2 @ 32nm (you can install 5.3 Jaguar cores)
Haswell = 14,5mm2 @ 22nm (you can install 4.6 Jaguar cores)

Anyone remembers IvyBridge core size ?? Hans ???
Hold your horses. We haven't seen the numbers yet.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:11 PM   #648
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Lets have a look at core sizes

Bobcat = 4.6mm2 @ 40nm
Llano = 9,69mm2 @ 32nm
Jaguar = 3.1mm2 @ 28nm

Hell, you could install three(3) Jaguar cores in the same space of a Llano core. It will have almost the same IPC as Llano and 3x times the performance(MT) at the same die size at the same frequency.
Well its a bit unfair to compare size given that Jaguar is on a smaller process.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:22 PM   #649
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That was pure Art . You however didn't answer the question you clearly understand , Well DO YA Punk! LOL my best clint eastwood. Well do ya think there another bullet in that intel gun?
I have every expectation it will be great.

But I'm guarded in terms of setting my expectations as to how great it will actually be when it is sitting on a board surrounded by other things that are sucking down the juice.

I distinctly remember Intel making a big deal out of how their transition from dynamic to static CMOS for nehalem was going to be the cat's meow and power was going to go down like mad. Meh, not so much once the chips showed up at Newegg and people could test them. We haven't heard Intel crow about their teh awesome Static CMOS ever since.

Likewise when it was "behold, I bring the world a gift of power-sipping peace that the Pope has christened 'Atom' "...only it sat in a platform that sucked down the juice and the world+dog collectively muttered a "meh" in unison.

And then I remember how clarkdale was vaunted by early reviewers as the second coming of the power-sipping messiah, laptops were going to run for 10hrs, blah blah blah...only it didn't really turn out that awesome for John Q Public when they got their DELL laptop delivered by fedex.

And even now we are in the "3D xtor" age, so damn advanced that the aliens are actually stealing our tech to improve their own now, only when you pop one into a computer to replace an elderly 32nm sandy bridge with its old skool planar xtors (pffft, grandpa xtor alert ) the power savings isn't exactly otherworldly. It is about what you'd expect for any given node shrink. Meets expectations.

So I am all for Intel "haswell'ing the market" but we've been down this road before. Take everything that is said and cut it in half (or double it, whichever generates a less-flattering number for the given metric) and that is very likely to be the reality IMO.

Yes it will be better than anything else on the planet, alien tech included, but I have my reservations in accepting the notion that it will truly be "all that and a bag of chips".
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:24 PM   #650
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This is nolonger about core size Its about efficiency. The power levels were discussing and Intel allready proving its capability in Soc with Medfield I see know logical explanation for conclusion based on already know Facts .
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