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Old 01-02-2013, 06:34 AM   #1
Ao1
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Default Win 8 Fast Boot

I’ve had a number of problems with Win 8 that all seem to come down to installing Win 8 in UEFI mode and the default Win 8 Fast Boot setting.

There is some info about Win 8 Fast Boot here:

http://blogs.technet.com/b/askperf/archive/2012/10/25/windows-8-windows-server-2012-faster-boot-process.aspx
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/08/delivering-fast-boot-times-in-windows-8.aspx

For fast boot to work you need a mobo that supports it and a GPU that supports Graphics Output Protocol (GOP).

No ATI cards support this function apart from a few 7 series boards from PowerColour. Some of the Nvidia vendors will supply a special UEFI GOP bios update for the 6 series cards, but the update is not available other than via a support request.

Fast Boot is enabled by default, yet unless you have a mobo and GPU that support it will not work as intended.

Essentially when you shut down your PC it will not actually shut down. Instead it will hibernate whatever was running at the time and write it to disk on a hidden partition. When you start up all the services running at the point of “shut down” will restart and boot up will take a couple of seconds.

Some major problems that can occur:
· Services don’t always restart
· If you change your hardware/ software set up it can cause problems when the PC restarts
· When the OS is installed in UEFI mode problems can arise such as not being able to unblock a frozen state SSD to run a secure erase
· BIOS updates can get messed up. (Crucial warned against updating the latest f/w in UEFI mode and I had to change my mobo BIOS chip twice after bad updates in UEFI mode).
· Extended I/0 response times
· Weird off set partitions

Any benefit of fast boot is not going to materialize until GPU cards support it, yet it’s the default Win 8 setting. The shutdown menu in Win 8 should be a lot clearer and give an option for a cold shut down if you have updated hardware/ software.

The easy way to disable it is to use the “powercfg/hibernate off” command via CMD.

Unless I’m missing something I see no benefit of installing an OS in UEFI mode. All I have seen is problems.

Since it didn't really have anything to do with Mem & Storage, moved to Operating Systems
-ViRGE

Last edited by ViRGE; 01-03-2013 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:58 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ao1 View Post
I’ve had a number of problems with Win 8 that all seem to come down to installing Win 8 in UEFI mode and the default Win 8 Fast Boot setting.

There is some info about Win 8 Fast Boot here:

http://blogs.technet.com/b/askperf/archive/2012/10/25/windows-8-windows-server-2012-faster-boot-process.aspx
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/08/delivering-fast-boot-times-in-windows-8.aspx

For fast boot to work you need a mobo that supports it and a GPU that supports Graphics Output Protocol (GOP).

No ATI cards support this function apart from a few 7 series boards from PowerColour. Some of the Nvidia vendors will supply a special UEFI GOP bios update for the 6 series cards, but the update is not available other than via a support request.

Fast Boot is enabled by default, yet unless you have a mobo and GPU that support it will not work as intended.

Essentially when you shut down your PC it will not actually shut down. Instead it will hibernate whatever was running at the time and write it to disk on a hidden partition. When you start up all the services running at the point of “shut down” will restart and boot up will take a couple of seconds.

Some major problems that can occur:
· Services don’t always restart
· If you change your hardware/ software set up it can cause problems when the PC restarts
· When the OS is installed in UEFI mode problems can arise such as not being able to unblock a frozen state SSD to run a secure erase
· BIOS updates can get messed up. (Crucial warned against updating the latest f/w in UEFI mode and I had to change my mobo BIOS chip twice after bad updates in UEFI mode).
· Extended I/0 response times
· Weird off set partitions

Any benefit of fast boot is not going to materialize until GPU cards support it, yet it’s the default Win 8 setting. The shutdown menu in Win 8 should be a lot clearer and give an option for a cold shut down if you have updated hardware/ software.

The easy way to disable it is to use the “powercfg/hibernate off” command via CMD.

Unless I’m missing something I see no benefit of installing an OS in UEFI mode. All I have seen is problems.
And if MS has set it to off by default people would complain that hardware manufacturers have no reason to support it and won't allocate resources to make it work. In order for progress to happen someone's got to pull the trigger and put something into production with its current warts in order for them to be worked out. UEFI is still relatively new and software support even newer so it's no surprise that there are some fairly major issues out there, but in the long run the benefits will greatly outweigh any issues now.
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:13 AM   #3
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But it is on by default and hardware manufacturers are not properly supporting it. That is my point. Sure, in the long run it will be great, but right now I would avoid UEFI and Fast Boot based on the numerous issues I’ve seen. (Both on a 6 and 7 Series Chipset)

You shouldn’t have to locate and read a blog on technet to find out that a shutdown is no longer a shut down. There should be different shut down options from the shutdown menu to avoid misunderstandings and problems.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:22 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ao1 View Post
But it is on by default and hardware manufacturers are not properly supporting it. That is my point. Sure, in the long run it will be great, but right now I would avoid UEFI and Fast Boot based on the numerous issues I’ve seen. (Both on a 6 and 7 Series Chipset)

You shouldn’t have to locate and read a blog on technet to find out that a shutdown is no longer a shut down. There should be different shut down options from the shutdown menu to avoid misunderstandings and problems.
I could see making it an option under something like like the power settings, but I don't think adding another shutdown option would be a good idea since it won't affect most people. Mostly because the large majority of people get their OS from the OEM prebuilt and configured so either the hardware will be setup appropriately or UEFI won't be enabled and those users are their primary target audience. Add to that the fact that one of MS' goals now seems to be to have you not shutdown normally and just let the PC go to sleep and act more like a tablet/appliance and in their eyes it shouldn't matter.

But that's part of being a technical person on the bleeding edge with things like this.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:18 PM   #5
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The more I read about Windows 8 the more it can go forth.

Still waiting for the Windows 8 x86 desktop review :@
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:25 PM   #6
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This is why I both never ugraded to UEFI and/or W8 -- too new, too buggy, still not seeing the bens -- sure saving 20 secs at boot would be nice, but considering I reboot like 2-3x/wk avg ... 1 min/wk isn't enough
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:59 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by fixbsod View Post
This is why I both never ugraded to UEFI and/or W8 -- too new, too buggy, still not seeing the bens -- sure saving 20 secs at boot would be nice, but considering I reboot like 2-3x/wk avg ... 1 min/wk isn't enough
My last motherboard purchase came with UEFI and besides some oddities in how it handles boot devices and order I haven't had a single issue. I'm running Linux on mine though so all of the Windows quirks don't apply, but other than the shock and awe of the new firmware UI I haven't noticed any appreciable differences.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:53 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Ao1 View Post
Unless I’m missing something I see no benefit of installing an OS in UEFI mode. All I have seen is problems.
Install Windows on >2.2TB drives and secure boot (this is another feature OEMs are taking their time implementing). You can also turn off the CSM to get that no legacy drivers slowing me down feeling.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:56 AM   #9
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Sorry off topic, but I just found another little surprise with Win 8. I noticed crazy disk activity and a notification in the toolbar that “maintenance is in progress”. I didn’t have time to capture how much data was read and written, but it would not surprise me if it was equal to the total amount of data on the drive. (Equal read and writes).

Why would it read and write so much data? (AV is off)

Windows 8 Maintenance

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=vs.85).aspx


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Old 01-03-2013, 10:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothinman View Post
My last motherboard purchase came with UEFI and besides some oddities in how it handles boot devices and order I haven't had a single issue. I'm running Linux on mine though so all of the Windows quirks don't apply, but other than the shock and awe of the new firmware UI I haven't noticed any appreciable differences.
http://www.itproportal.com/2012/12/3...e-boot-issues/

"The feature that has received by far the most attention is secure boot, as it can be used by PC OEMs to prevent other operating systems being installed on their hardware. Dell, if it so wishes, could build a PC that only runs Windows. On the flip side, Apple could stop Windows from being installed on its hardware".
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ao1 View Post
http://www.itproportal.com/2012/12/3...e-boot-issues/

"The feature that has received by far the most attention is secure boot, as it can be used by PC OEMs to prevent other operating systems being installed on their hardware. Dell, if it so wishes, could build a PC that only runs Windows. On the flip side, Apple could stop Windows from being installed on its hardware".
I'm well aware of that but don't see how that applies to this thread.
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ao1 View Post
Sorry off topic, but I just found another little surprise with Win 8. I noticed crazy disk activity and a notification in the toolbar that “maintenance is in progress”. I didn’t have time to capture how much data was read and written, but it would not surprise me if it was equal to the total amount of data on the drive. (Equal read and writes).

Why would it read and write so much data? (AV is off)

Windows 8 Maintenance

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=vs.85).aspx


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Is this an SSD array or regular HDD? All this is a scheduled defrag which I thought was in 7, but I could be wrong.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:26 AM   #13
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I am only using SSD’s, but I have a number of different configurations and two of them seem to cause issues for Win 8.

· DR0-LSI (E) is a RAID 0 SSD array on an LSI on-board controller, but Win 8 is seeing it as a HDD.
· DR4- RAID 1 (D) is a RAID 1 SSD array on an Intel controller, but Win 8 is seeing it as a HDD.

I have re-ran WEI and the HDD status remains for those two arrays.


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Old 01-05-2013, 08:17 AM   #14
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If Win 8 sees them as a HDD, then it will try to defrag which is what you are seeing. You can go into task scheduler and just disable the various tasks if necessary.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:16 AM   #15
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Here’s the lowdown from AMD on GPU Fast Boot support for Win 8

“Through AMD's extensive testing, a significant number of existing platforms experienced compatibility issues with the UEFI specifications that were implemented with the Hybrid VBIOS AMD developed. Users could experience boot failures on incompatible systems. To ensure compatibility, the standard VGA VBIOS continues to be used, and we cannot transition with the partner manufacturers yet. It is a System BIOS implementation issue that can be addressed with a System BIOS update.


This is not an issue on OE system builds (HP, DELL, etc..) or integrated graphics components (where VBIOS is implemented directly into SBIOS), because full UEFI compatibility is set from the ground-up”.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:08 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ao1 View Post
Here’s the lowdown from AMD on GPU Fast Boot support for Win 8

“Through AMD's extensive testing, a significant number of existing platforms experienced compatibility issues with the UEFI specifications that were implemented with the Hybrid VBIOS AMD developed. Users could experience boot failures on incompatible systems. To ensure compatibility, the standard VGA VBIOS continues to be used, and we cannot transition with the partner manufacturers yet. It is a System BIOS implementation issue that can be addressed with a System BIOS update.


This is not an issue on OE system builds (HP, DELL, etc..) or integrated graphics components (where VBIOS is implemented directly into SBIOS), because full UEFI compatibility is set from the ground-up”.
So effectively a problem that only potentially affects people building their own systems and only then if you get a board with UEFI firmware with issues. I would agree with MS' decision that it's a small enough niche to not really worry about. This is just the beginning of the next generation of firmware issues that we've been dealing with for decades with crap like "chipset drivers" to paper over those firmware issues.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:42 PM   #17
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I was having a bugger of a time trying to get fast boot working in its full effect, and now I know why. my 7970 just doesn't fully support it. when I disable csm in my motherboards bios, I get the vga bios not supported error message. what powercolor cards do you know of that have the uefi gop bios? I wonder if there is a bios editor around where we could enable it ourselves?

edit: found the powercolor options http://www.powercolor.com/Global/UEFI.asp?ParentID=79
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