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Old 01-09-2013, 02:07 AM   #26
BUTCH1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Not all Boeing airliners have APU's.

This fire was in the battery rack for the APU.

http://seattletimes.com/avantgo/2020084827.html

We don't yet know exactly what happened.

Could have been bad battery packs.

Heck, it could have been something the cleaning crew did.
ALL airliners have multiple redundant systems including APU's (auxiliary power unit) to ensure the plane has power available (to power avionics, control systems, and hydraulic pumps so that control surfaces can still function without any of the planes engines running)
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:20 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Not all Boeing airliners have APU's.

This fire was in the battery rack for the APU.

http://seattletimes.com/avantgo/2020084827.html

We don't yet know exactly what happened.

Could have been bad battery packs.

Heck, it could have been something the cleaning crew did.
Are you serious? I've been a commercial aircraft mechanic for 12yrs. ALL boeing commercial a/c have had an APU since the 727's.

And only the 787 has li-on primary batteries. This is a serious issue, there's no smoke/fire detection where the batteries are installed. On most boeing /ac the batteries are not accessible to the crew. Had this happened over the pacific the results may have been different.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:20 AM   #28
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707/720 has no APU

727 was designed without an APU, and then had it added.

Lots of small and medium pax planes have no APU.

A380 has lithium ion batteries on board for the emergency lighting, iirc.

The 787 battery packs have a cockpit overheat indication so the crew will know and can isolate the battery pack.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:34 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUTCH1 View Post
ALL airliners have multiple redundant systems including APU's (auxiliary power unit) to ensure the plane has power available (to power avionics, control systems, and hydraulic pumps so that control surfaces can still function without any of the planes engines running)
Nope, quite a few small pax planes have no APU and need no APU.

Some just have batteries.

Some have a RAT.

Some have a combination. Most big airliners have several ways of getting power.

Some RATS supply electricity, some supply hydraulic pressure, some supply both.

Sometimes a windmilling turbine or prop will provide some power.

Many airliners can't dump fuel, either.

IIRC, the 747's APU can't be started in flight. 4 generators are considered enough redundancy.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:05 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
707/720 has no APU

727 was designed without an APU, and then had it added.

Lots of small and medium pax planes have no APU.

A380 has lithium ion batteries on board for the emergency lighting, iirc.

The 787 battery packs have a cockpit overheat indication so the crew will know and can isolate the battery pack.
Isolate and then what? Overheat means nothing.
You can switch off the battery and it still could be on fire and you would not know.
Like I said, you can not do anything about a battery fire once the a/c is airborne.
You can only hope to land in time before it gets worse and evacuate.
Read up on Swissair 111, a Little arcing doomed 229 people. The FAA has been harping on oems, airlines and mechanics since then about electrical practices and system reliability. Expect them to come down hard on Boeing and its supplier over these batteries.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:21 AM   #31
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Swissair 111 bears no resemblance to this ground fire. Fires were handled differently way back then, and planes were built differently. Had 111 been built with fireproof material, and fire detection equipment, the outcome is probably different.

Had the policy back then been what it is today, the pilot would be aware of the problem earlier, and would divert immediately at the first warning of a fire, instead of trying to figure it out, and the outcome is likely different.

The 787's battery rack is designed to help contain the fire. Isolating the bad battery from the charger/electrical system is important, even if it won't directly stop the fire. The avionics bay vents to the outside, so there would likely have been no smoke in the cabin.

Boeing thought of what would happen with a battery fire, and the avionics bay, and the aircraft itself, is designed to handle such a fire.

Reports are that this fire was burning for about 40 minutes, so it looks like the 787 did an amazing job of containing the damage, but I probably shouldn't make that judgement yet.

The APU is not normally used in flight, so this problem most likely would only occur on the ground when the plane is using the APU for power.

We still don't know what caused the fire, what was burning, or what the sequence of events might have been.

Did the wiring cause the problem? Was the battery defective? Did the maintenance crew do something? Did the APU cause the problem?
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:30 AM   #32
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BAHpuT_CIAAgjPn.jpg:large

Bigger pic. Looks like the offending battery has been removed and damage is relatively minor overall, given the descriptions that have been in the media. Looks like damage to the floor, mostly.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:50 AM   #33
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The NTSB investigator on scene found that the auxiliary power unit battery had severe fire damage. Thermal damage to the surrounding structure and components is confined to the area immediately near the APU battery rack (within about 20 inches) in the aft electronics bay.
Sounds like a defective battery, and a well designed battery rack.

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2013/130108b.html
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:57 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Sounds like a defective battery, and a well designed battery rack.

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2013/130108b.html
Do you work for Boeing? Seriously. What kind of "well designed" battery pack catches on fire?

There is no such thing as a minor fire on board an aircraft. Smoke did get into the cabin, a fire fighter got injured extinguishing the blaze. There is nothing minor about this incident and Boeing had better fix it before they lose an aircraft.
Here is a quotes from an online article:

Flames about two feet (0.6 meter) high shot out of an avionics bay in the jetís belly yesterday as the plane sat at a Logan International Airport gate before its next departure, and there was a small explosion, Massachusetts Port Authority Fire Chief Robert Donahue said in an interview. Hello minor incident!!!!!!

They should re brand it to "Nightmare Liner"
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:15 AM   #35
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The article you link to talks about flames shooting out but than says the firefights had to use infrared detection to locate the fire.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:23 AM   #36
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Boeing is now saying that the fire was due to an improperly installed wiring bundle.

"United Airlines found improperly-installed wiring on one of its Boeing Co. 787s, as operators of the new jet inspected their fleets in the wake of the electrical fire suffered Monday on a Japan Airlines Co. Dreamliner parked at Boston airport,...."

One of the new Boeing processes that was implemented for the 787 was outsourcing many more aircraft components than ever before. At the time, it engineers pointed out that while you can save money by outsourcing, you give up some (quality) control.

I wonder what the MBAs think of their cost savings now?

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Old 01-09-2013, 09:40 AM   #37
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Yay! saved x thousands of dollars per bundle!
<stock plummets 6.2% in two days>
FFFFUUUU
It's up 3% on the day.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:34 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number1 View Post
Do you work for Boeing? Seriously. What kind of "well designed" battery pack catches on fire?

There is no such thing as a minor fire on board an aircraft. Smoke did get into the cabin, a fire fighter got injured extinguishing the blaze. There is nothing minor about this incident and Boeing had better fix it before they lose an aircraft.
Here is a quotes from an online article:

Flames about two feet (0.6 meter) high shot out of an avionics bay in the jetís belly yesterday as the plane sat at a Logan International Airport gate before its next departure, and there was a small explosion, Massachusetts Port Authority Fire Chief Robert Donahue said in an interview. Hello minor incident!!!!!!

They should re brand it to "Nightmare Liner"
Rack, not pack. Boeing wouldn't have designed the battery pack.

The rack/compartment contained the fire and there is apparently only minor damage.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:35 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unokitty View Post
Boeing is now saying that the fire was due to an improperly installed wiring bundle.

"United Airlines found improperly-installed wiring on one of its Boeing Co. 787s, as operators of the new jet inspected their fleets in the wake of the electrical fire suffered Monday on a Japan Airlines Co. Dreamliner parked at Boston airport,...."

One of the new Boeing processes that was implemented for the 787 was outsourcing many more aircraft components than ever before. At the time, it engineers pointed out that while you can save money by outsourcing, you give up some (quality) control.

I wonder what the MBAs think of their cost savings now?

Uno
Boeing didn't say that about the wire bundle, and the United problem is apparently unrelated to the JAL battery fire.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:37 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Druidx View Post
The article you link to talks about flames shooting out but than says the firefights had to use infrared detection to locate the fire.
The photo doesn't seem to support the report of a lot of flames, but the fire may have flared up when a cover was removed.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:47 AM   #41
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The air in this bay is vented to the outside in flight while the plane is pressurized, so it's very unlikely that any smoke would have entered the cabin in flight.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:49 AM   #42
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I think they had extinguished it, and it popped. They describe the fire/smoke and battery explosion as two discrete events.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:58 AM   #43
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I think they had extinguished it, and it popped. They describe the fire/smoke and battery explosion as two discrete events.
If it was the LiIon battery, it would be a Class D fire. You put those out by burying them.

The photo doesn't appear to show evidence of a Class D extinguisher/agent being used to smother the battery.

The pop would be typical with a battery.

Calling it an explosion seems a bit much.

My money would be on there being no visible flames before actions were taken to find the source of the smoke.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:16 PM   #44
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The air in this bay is vented to the outside in flight while the plane is pressurized, so it's very unlikely that any smoke would have entered the cabin in flight.
You sound so alarmed. The cabin is indeed pressurised but tell us, where is the air intake?

I don't know what's in it for you, maybe it's like that sig of yours. For me, I buy Intel when it's the best, I buy AMD when it's the best just like any rational person SHOULD!
Check my sig for details.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:37 PM   #45
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There are two parts to ETOPS certifications. The first is the type cert, which is the airplane +engine combo. Boeing already got that certification during their flight testing.

The other half of certification deals with the airlines. If the airline already has enough ETOPS experience (on other airplanes), they get quick approval for ETOPS on new types.
I don't recall when they started certifying twin engine jets for ETOPs, specifically trans Pacific flights, but I think it was less than twenty years ago?

It seems strange to allow new planes to fly long distances from any landing field before there has been some amount of history for a brand new plane.
It sounds like they are far too trusting of technology. Especially when we have examples of fires that might doom a plane that was too far from a landing field.

Just my 2 cents but I would like to see them fly 6 months non ETOPS just to work out the bugs.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:41 PM   #46
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Obviously it's foreigners sabotaging quality 'mercian products.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:00 PM   #47
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You sound so alarmed. The cabin is indeed pressurised but tell us, where is the air intake?

I don't know what's in it for you, maybe it's like that sig of yours. For me, I buy Intel when it's the best, I buy AMD when it's the best just like any rational person SHOULD!
Check my sig for details.
The 787's bleedless system is well documented on the net. It's pretty easy to learn how it works. It does not use bleed air for the cabin.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...7_article2.pdf

Here is the airflow description from a fellow Airliners.net member:

Quote:
Air enters at the top of the cabin above the bins, moving inboard along the ceiling then downward on the center-line of the cabin to the floor. At the floor of the cabin, the air moves outboard to the return air grills at the base of the sidewalls. From here, the air moves toward the outflow valves, including through the equipment bays. Any air which enters the equipment bays is vented via negative pressure and ducted directly to the outflow valve. In this way, the design ensures any smoke in the equipment bay is vented immediately overboard.


My sig is a joke created when nick said I might be mentally unstable for sticking with intel chips way back when AMD was the upstart price/performance leader. I compared it to being used to driving a Chevy, even though you know a Honda is a better deal.

The chemtrail bit is because I have been battling them ever since they showed up on the net.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:16 PM   #48
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Obviously it's foreigners sabotaging quality 'mercian products.
Yeah, with them spontaneously combusting mid-air all the time like that, it's a wonder Boeing is still in business.

As far as I can tell, there has been exactly one fire on a 787 in service, and we get this thread title. They've been in service more than a year, too.

Airliners have all sorts of incidents daily. Even small fires and big fires.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...-2009-027.aspx

http://avherald.com/h?article=44078aa7

Avherald has daily running reports of all the problems:

http://avherald.com/

Note the number of smoke incidents.

Don't read all the reports if you are a little skittish about flying.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:21 PM   #49
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787 Etops cert was from extensive testing.

It was not given any sort of "pass".

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...trials-360286/
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:26 PM   #50
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ETOPS
A buddy said this best - Either Turnaround Or Passengers Swim
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