Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Software > Console Gaming

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals with Free Stuff/Contests
· Black Friday 2014
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-07-2013, 01:31 PM   #126
amandaK
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KirklandBrand View Post
Since we have not heard anything on this topic it would be pure speculation at this point. I would hope that it would be as powerful as the 680 or at least 660ti.
^this. It's totally asinine to argue about what the graphics will be like because we have no way of knowing. I would assume it will be at least as powerful as current-gen PC's, but to expect the same kind of jump we saw from PS2 to PS3 is unrealistic. Games are costing more and more to produce, and Sony is just starting to make money on the PS3 now. They can't afford to sell another over-priced console at a loss. Same can be said for Microsoft on all accounts.
amandaK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 02:56 PM   #127
destrekor
Lifer
 
destrekor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: It's turtles all the way down!
Posts: 23,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amandaK View Post
^this. It's totally asinine to argue about what the graphics will be like because we have no way of knowing. I would assume it will be at least as powerful as current-gen PC's, but to expect the same kind of jump we saw from PS2 to PS3 is unrealistic. Games are costing more and more to produce, and Sony is just starting to make money on the PS3 now. They can't afford to sell another over-priced console at a loss. Same can be said for Microsoft on all accounts.
The idea, at least for Sony since they entered the market, has always been sell at a loss, recoup with license fees and accessory sales.
Between marketing and the loss on initial hardware sales, they lose a mighty pretty penny. But it's all about the gamble of gaining the market share that will result in a strong brand and many accessories sold (and obviously demands the notion of strong game sales and courting major developers).

I don't know if Nintendo has sold at a loss, and don't care to research whether Sega ever engaged in that practice, but both Sony and Microsoft have always done so since the beginning.
Don't look for the practice to stop, but I would highly doubt Sony would endeavor to produce a $750-800 machine to be sold at $500-600.
A $150-200 loss would be expected, but I reckon Sony will want to release at $300-400 this go-around. They won't be launching/gambling on a new media format (save for perhaps a major streaming service launch/overhaul), so they'll be able to save some money there and focus more on the integral processing components.

Sony realizes (well, I *hope*) their initial PS3 MSRP severely cut into initial and future market share opportunities, which was only compounded by a notoriously difficult development/coding platform (as was the case for both the PS1 and PS2 before it). Hopefully they set out to launch at a more attractive price, which will demand a less expensive product to manufacture, which may force them to use hardware that's a little easier to effectively develop for.
__________________
"Spaceman + Goosemaster + Nemesis 1 =
Well if chicken curtain up with how glue general of should the sternum." - Jeff7
BUY MY STUFF! [Wacom Create, Bionic, G13, Nook Color] MY STUFF, YOU WANT TO BUY IT!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
destrekor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 04:38 PM   #128
Aikouka
Lifer
 
Aikouka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 24,613
Default

The problem with Sony attempting to sell at a loss is that the entire company is not in very good financial shape at the moment:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b7745c74-2...44feabdc0.html

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Sony_...et_Income/2012

They might be able to include something that is the equivalent of a 660, but you have to keep in mind that a 660ti is a $300 video card. Obviously, it doesn't cost them $300 to put it into a console, but if we go with a guesstimate of 2/3, $200 just on the video card seems like a ballsy move when you'd probably want to hit a target of $300-400 MSRP. Note that you still need everything else and the overhead for reseller profit.
Aikouka is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 05:16 PM   #129
BenSkywalker
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,955
Default

Quote:
Note that you still need everything else and the overhead for reseller profit.
There is zero profit for anyone in the supply chain for actual console hardware. If a console sells for $399, it will have a billing value of ~$398. They don't go through normal distribution channels, you order them from MS/Sony/Nintendo. Games, OTOH, have nice fat margins.
BenSkywalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 05:19 PM   #130
Silver Prime
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,671
Default

How is it going to look like, is it still going to look like that galss tablet with the circle inside? Or is it going to be just another black box.
Silver Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 06:53 PM   #131
Doppel
Lifer
 
Doppel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 13,313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikouka View Post
The problem with Sony attempting to sell at a loss is that the entire company is not in very good financial shape at the moment:
Although this is true about Sony, if the model has a track record of success and there are good odds it will work again, Sony will find the money to invest. After all, if you had a buddy that kept blowing his pay check on booze and hookers but had an incredible knack for betting and winning on horses you still might give him some money to gamble for you.
Doppel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 08:54 PM   #132
mmntech
Lifer
 
mmntech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 14,670
Default

I was a little surprised Sony didn't mention it in their keynote at CES. Though in retrospect, they haven't done that in the past. Something I should have checked when I made the initial prediction. Though Sony does tend to announce new systems a full year or more before they launch. So whether they're taking a page out of Apple's book, I'm not sure. Though Sony's too conservative a company to really take advantage of that approach. I'd say if we don't hear anything between now and E3, the PS4 is not coming out this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Prime View Post
How is it going to look like, is it still going to look like that galss tablet with the circle inside? Or is it going to be just another black box.
IIRC, the glass PS4 was a fan made mock up. While a really cool design, it's unlikely to look like that. Sony doesn't take a lot of design risks with their products. Once they find something they like, they tend to stick with it.
__________________
Callout portion of post removed, which left only "I'll be showing my girlfriend my massive penis..." Since that is obviously some kind of typo I deleted it as well. - allisolm

Boycott SiriusXM
mmntech is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 09:06 PM   #133
Doppel
Lifer
 
Doppel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 13,313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmntech View Post
I'd say if we don't hear anything between now and E3, the PS4 is not coming out this year.
Yes, haven't people spoken about it as if it's obvious except without any confirmation? I am pretty sure the 720 will be out before PS4, but I seem to read a lot less about the ps4 than 720.

Sony, and MS, will have to lower the price of their existing consoles when a new one is announced, so to bolster current sales it makes sense to stay mum, even if a person buying one this year may wait a while before buying the next gen (they still probably will eventually).
Doppel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2013, 11:30 PM   #134
destrekor
Lifer
 
destrekor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: It's turtles all the way down!
Posts: 23,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmntech View Post
I was a little surprised Sony didn't mention it in their keynote at CES. Though in retrospect, they haven't done that in the past. Something I should have checked when I made the initial prediction. Though Sony does tend to announce new systems a full year or more before they launch. So whether they're taking a page out of Apple's book, I'm not sure. Though Sony's too conservative a company to really take advantage of that approach. I'd say if we don't hear anything between now and E3, the PS4 is not coming out this year.



IIRC, the glass PS4 was a fan made mock up. While a really cool design, it's unlikely to look like that. Sony doesn't take a lot of design risks with their products. Once they find something they like, they tend to stick with it.
Sony has announced a PlayStation conference/event, I think in late February. It *could* be a PS4 announcement, but it could be anything.

I think with the PS3 (not certain), they did something similar. E3 was then a follow-up, an "in more detail" show-off event.
__________________
"Spaceman + Goosemaster + Nemesis 1 =
Well if chicken curtain up with how glue general of should the sternum." - Jeff7
BUY MY STUFF! [Wacom Create, Bionic, G13, Nook Color] MY STUFF, YOU WANT TO BUY IT!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
destrekor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 08:14 AM   #135
cmdrdredd
Lifer
 
cmdrdredd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 20,117
Default

I would be happy with some info about whether it will play ps3 games so I know if I need to keep that or not and what timeframe to expect release so I can prepare.
__________________
Asus Maximus V Gene | 3570k @ 4.5 | 8GB Samsung 30nm @ 2133 | EVGA GTX 670 FTW SLI @ 1230/6765
2x 128GB Crucial M4 SSD | WD 300GB Velociraptor | Lite-On HBS212 BD-R | Corsair HX1000 PSU
Cooler Master HAF 932 | Yamakasi Catleap Q270 | Windows 8.1 Pro
cmdrdredd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 12:55 PM   #136
Dumac
Diamond Member
 
Dumac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,350
Default

My launch PS3 just broke. Debating on waiting till PS4 or just getting a new PS3.
__________________
Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!
Dumac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 12:58 PM   #137
tipoo
Member
 
tipoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumac View Post
My launch PS3 just broke. Debating on waiting till PS4 or just getting a new PS3.
Full backwards compatibility on the 4 seems unlikely to me, given that so much points to an AMD processor. I'd just go ahead and get a replacement 3, the 4 may still be two years out for all we know. You can always sell the 3 when the 4 is announced.
tipoo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 02:48 PM   #138
Aikouka
Lifer
 
Aikouka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 24,613
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumac View Post
My launch PS3 just broke. Debating on waiting till PS4 or just getting a new PS3.
Out of curiosity, how did it break? My mostly-backwards-compatible PS3 eventually had its laser go, and I was able to replace that fairly easily. I almost thought I was screwed for a minute when a screw magically disappeared. Thankfully, my pack rat nature meant I had a non-functioning Sony DVD-RW drive that I was able to pilfer a screw from.

Anyway, whether or not the next Playstation will have backwards compatibility is an interesting thought. If the x86 rumors are true, I would be a bit hesitant to expect it. They could always go a Microsoft route and only emulate a handful of games from the predecessor (like the 360 does with original XBOX games).
Aikouka is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 08:54 PM   #139
Silver Prime
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,671
Default

I would like them to remake every single Final fantasy game in super Hd then have the legend of the dragoon remade along with wild arms franchise.

That is all.
Silver Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 08:58 PM   #140
tipoo
Member
 
tipoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 184
Default

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=507910


Quote:
PS4 "Orbis"
- AMD x86 3.2GHz APU Solution (Jaguar/Steamroller), 4 cores (2 core pairs), [Higher Clock than X720/Durango]
- Maybe AMD 8000 series GPU solution [Customised Solution Possibly utilising GPU + APU combo]
- 2-4GB GDDR5
- Launch Fall 2013/Early 2014

Explanation: PS4 has a higher clock, but less cores and is using an APU solution (CPU & GPU elements combined onto a single chip). The PS4 has less RAM but is using faster GDDR ram, so the overall performance should be a wash.

For more information, Jeff Rigby's rumour roundup.

Xbox 720 "Durango"
- AMD x86 Jaguar 1.6GHZ 8-Core [Targeting one core being dedicated for OS tasks]
- AMD 8000 series GPU
- ESRAM on the GPU (unknown amount)
- 8GB Ram DDR3, [1.5GB of RAM likely reserved for the operating system]
- Launch 2013

The RAM situation almost looks like a repeat of the 360/PS3 situation, right? Except this time the totals are different, while in the PS360 just the hard split was different (512 usable by anything, vs 256/256 split), while the PS3 had XDR memory for higher speed as well as having dedicated vram to feed the GPU bandwidth.

This situation led to many cross platform games performing better on the 360, as the 256/256 split was not always optimal for some game types. However on some games with smaller levels but more details within the level, the higher bandwidth of the PS3 won out.

We'll see if that repeats here, or if it's at a point where for most games the lower PS3 amount will be enough in addition to being faster.

The CPU situation is interesting, both seem to be based on a similar generation architecture from AMD, assuming cache sizes and the works are the same the IPC should be similar so clock speed can be used to compare within the same family. I suspect devs will have a happier time with 4 high clocked cores rather than 8 at half that speed, let me tell you first hand that good multithreading is a bitch. Although now there are tools that can abstract that away from programmers, I wonder if Sony or Microsoft will implement something like that? If the 720 is based off of Windows 8, there are features like that baked in, parallel libraries and such which will be quite a boon. Plus Sony still doesn't have an official alternative to Microsofts PIX, do they? Game devs got so damn tired of not having a good debug tool that they made their own for the PS3. Sony should smarten up for the PS4. PIX is a godsend.
tipoo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 01:54 AM   #141
Silver Prime
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,671
Default

So when do people think the Ps4 will actually be able to own. 2014 seems reasonable, if its 2015 whoa thats effy.
Silver Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 08:12 AM   #142
BenSkywalker
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,955
Default

Quote:
2014 seems reasonable, if its 2015 whoa thats effy.
Most people are expecting it this year, although perhaps just in Japan.
BenSkywalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 09:22 AM   #143
American Gunner
Platinum Member
 
American Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,398
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenSkywalker View Post
Most people are expecting it this year, although perhaps just in Japan.
I highly doubt the next PS comes out only in Japan this year. They need to try to not come in last in the States, so I doubt they would make them wait until next year, especially in the new xbox is out this year.
American Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 10:29 AM   #144
ManBearPig
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 9,117
Default

I wonder if (like someone mentioned iirc) since Sony is losing a ton of money that the next Xbox will have better hardware.
ManBearPig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 11:03 AM   #145
destrekor
Lifer
 
destrekor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: It's turtles all the way down!
Posts: 23,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazaam View Post
I wonder if (like someone mentioned iirc) since Sony is losing a ton of money that the next Xbox will have better hardware.
Based on the current leaks/rumors, I'd wager both systems are actually going to be pretty similar.

There could be a few reasons.

Sony had put a TON of development money into the previous generations, especially the PS3's Cell CPU. Microsoft has always taken a slightly cheaper approach, utilizing tweaked off-the-shelf systems.

Both companies are realizing they have to be a little more careful with launch price, attract the devs, and still do well enough in a questionable economy. Sony more so than ever, again, considering the cheapest launch PS3 was $500.
For Microsoft, some concern goes into not just making it an attractive console, but making it an attractive living room machine for more than just gamers. I thoroughly believe the notion that they will ship the "720" with a version of Windows 8. I am curious to know whether it would be a full-blown Win8 machine, or a strange version based on Windows RT. It's an x86 machine, so it could theoretically support Win8. I expect it'll have a customized Windows RT experience, more console/10ft UI focused. If it's Windows RT and supports all "Metro" apps, they'll probably have a custom pointer enabled for use with the analog sticks. They may, just may, also include touch pads on, say, the underside of controllers, and probably on any media-center remote.
Microsoft sees the success of stand-alone streaming set-top boxes, and is serious about Windows 8 being a universal OS (and it was bandied about awhile ago that they were putting it on consoles too), and they want in on the living room party. They already saw success with the various streaming services/apps on the 360, might as well revisit that concept but with a proper iteration of Windows, in some flavor.
I wouldn't expect the desktop component, but Microsoft has been known to surprise us all.

Sony, well, they have always done decent with the living room, thanks in part to the last two generations including new optical formats as they were just coming into the limelight. They could definitely use a better approach to the full living room experience, but they could truly do anything.
Maybe they'll bring some kind of Android experience? It'd be cool if Sony put Windows RT on the PS4, but that would also be strange, and whether it helps or hurts, they'd want to differentiate. But, including some approach to GoogleTV, that'd be nifty.

It IS quite interesting how Intel is getting completely screwed on the console front. But that's another cost-saving technique, I'm sure of it.
__________________
"Spaceman + Goosemaster + Nemesis 1 =
Well if chicken curtain up with how glue general of should the sternum." - Jeff7
BUY MY STUFF! [Wacom Create, Bionic, G13, Nook Color] MY STUFF, YOU WANT TO BUY IT!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
destrekor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 11:31 AM   #146
sigurros81
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,380
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by szvwxcszxc View Post
less than today's PCs? Your opinion/knowledge welcome


Moved from PC Gaming

Anandtech Moderator
KeithTalent
It's going to look like my computer running Crysis 2 with medium settings enabled.
sigurros81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 04:31 PM   #147
Todd33
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: CA
Posts: 7,828
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Prime View Post
So when do people think the Ps4 will actually be able to own. 2014 seems reasonable, if its 2015 whoa thats effy.
Latest rumors say Oct 2013 with an announcement before or at E3. Seems aggressive, but maybe this things has been in the works for a while.

Rumored specs:

AMD APU (two dual core pairs)
AMD GPU (8000 series based)
4GB GDDR5 (256-bit?)
__________________
Nate Silver 1, buckshot24 0
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross." ---Sinclair Lewis
Todd33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 04:49 PM   #148
Silver Prime
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,671
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd33 View Post
Latest rumors say Oct 2013 with an announcement before or at E3. Seems aggressive, but maybe this things has been in the works for a while.

Rumored specs:

AMD APU (two dual core pairs)
AMD GPU (8000 series based)
4GB GDDR5 (256-bit?)
I'd say 2015 isint unrealitic, an because everything we've been hearing are pure rumors...I mean absolutely nothing has ever been true from the internets dome of fan based sites, you have to look at only the home webs of these companys an sony hasent even came out and even hinted anything.

Ultimately when it comes out, it comes out, but I highly dought its this year.
An Sony dosent have to threat about losing out too much, because well, they can rely on there other electronics to pay the bill of there game counsle, which sony is more of a sentimental machine at this point, it will always sell, but its just not doing good because of there ridicules over price-ing an delivering only medicore. The gimics are out already, people have I pods for music, an smartphones an pads for internet, get back into focus-ing on good games, the least they can do is be like nintendo, give us a re-hashed line up of old games re-newed...everyone is just dying to see some old games with remakes or sequels, not so much what evers just 3rd party on all systems type, we want the old sony back.
Silver Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 12:51 AM   #149
Staples
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,231
Default

On par with current PC games. Remember, the next Xbox is supposedly 6x as fast as the 360 (which seems terrible), if it were bleeding edge as the 360 was when it came out, it should be 20x or more faster than the 360.
Staples is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 07:40 AM   #150
tipoo
Member
 
tipoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Staples View Post
On par with current PC games. Remember, the next Xbox is supposedly 6x as fast as the 360 (which seems terrible), if it were bleeding edge as the 360 was when it came out, it should be 20x or more faster than the 360.

I think 20x is overly optimistic. Gflops aren't the best measure of performance, but just to compare magnitudes they give an ok rough measure. The 360 GPU was around 200-250Gflops. Todays high end GPUs are 2000-3000, only dual chip uber high end ones hit over 5000. 20x would be 4000Gflops.

6x the performance is around 1.3Tflops which is where the rumors also pointed to. So the two separate rumors kind of go hand in hand, lending each other credibility.

Remember that consoles can do a lot more with thier hardware than PCs, look what they manage on x1900/7800 class hardware. I'm fine with a 1.3Tflop GPU in the nextbox.
tipoo is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.