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Old 01-01-2013, 06:44 PM   #26
amyklai
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Originally Posted by Zeze View Post
Thank you.

A month from now, no one will remember about this talk, not even NK themselves.

If anybody had suggested in 1988 that Germany would be reunited in 1990, he would've been laughed at. Heck, even in February 1989, Eastern German police still killed a guy who wanted to flee to Western Germany. I'm German, I was around 15 at the time, and I thought reunification was never going to never happen - or at least not any time soon.

Once things start to change, change often happens much faster than anybody expected.

IMO the big difference between NK and Easten Germany is that NK has the atomic bomb. But Eastern Germany also hat lots of Russian soldiers stationed there, and hardly anyone believed that Russia would let Eastern Germany and the other Warsaw Pact states slip away. Otherwise, the situation is somewhat similar: the main supporter state is no longer as supportive as it used to be (and also no longer quite as strict about communism) and there's a prosperous sibling state next door.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:45 PM   #27
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It's all because of Gangnam Style....
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:49 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Lifted View Post
Nobody in East Germany had anything of value to lose when the Russians left.

This is apples and oranges.
That's not quite true. A lot of people who worked for the Eastern German State or were closely affiliated with the system were suddenly fired and jobless. Stasi, Police, Army, Politicians etc went from priviliged caste to irrelevant and relatively bad off (albeit in a now much richer country). Do you really think Honecker and Mielke had nothing to lose?
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:21 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by amyklai View Post
On top of that, from their current position, they've practically no where to go but up. Any reform is automatically going to be a success in the economic sense.
What's much harder for the North Korean regime is keeping the political results of that under control, especially with a prospering and democratic South Korea across the border. Which is probably the reason why previous Kims didn't start doing the Chinese thing much earlier.
I think the previous Kim was a lunatic on the scale of Stalin. He was simply paranoid. With or without reason is hard to tell. But he didnt want a change. Maybe he liked the worshipping as well. The new Kim is completely different with a clean view on everything and "indoctrined" with european culture. We talk about a person who is basicly raised in europe in a modern, high efficient and rich socialist type society. For him it must feel like coming from the big city and set out to some amish farm.

The real problem tho is the rest of the bunch. But without Kim, their power would fall fast. Hopefully they all realized the situation.

Last edited by ShintaiDK; 01-01-2013 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:46 PM   #30
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We have to also understand that South Korea has been self sufficient as a farming nation,
While at the same time North Korea has suffered from a 30 year drought that has left North Korea unable to feed itself.

As the other semi stupidity on this thread lies in the hypothesis that the real power in North Korea lies in North Korean Army leaders military command leadership and not in the Kim Jung famdamily.

There was no real and immediate West German profit when they assimilated the Basket case ecomomy of East Germany, but I defy anyone to say West Germany and East Germany are not better off for it today. Especially since it was done without firing a shot,
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:55 PM   #31
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North Korea can become another place to make cheap products for the West. Nike shoes, Columbia jackets, or Wal-mart clothes will be made in Best Korea.
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:04 PM   #32
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Well, I will wait and see. Talk is cheap.

I do hope that oppressive regimes in commie/socialist countries will open their eyes and set their country free.

I haven't been to main land China and North Korea yet but I have been to several countries in Asia, both developed such as S. Korea, Japan, Singapore, etc. and developing such as Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.

The potential of those developing are amazing (raw materials, mineral, oil, gas, etc). The work ethics of those people are great (no sitting around and blaming on whiteys like in the US). They just need the opportunities/breaks. Sadly, the small groups that control the countries are holding on for their dear lives because of their massive wealth and power. One can only dream.
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:11 PM   #33
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Seems to be a small step forward. For what it's worth, wasn't Kim Jong-un educated in the West? And, I thought that recently, he sort of cleared house among the top ranking officials. Perhaps that was a precursor to actually doing something positive for his people? Call me optimistic, though I am very skeptical. (Likewise, isn't it about time that the US ended its embargo with Cuba?)
He went to elementary / middle school in Swizterland and studied in France as well. He was a big fan of Michael Jordan and the NBA.

He had a lot of exposure outside of North Korea, nothing like his father.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/...071700693.html
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:11 PM   #34
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I do hope that oppressive regimes in commie/socialist countries will open their eyes and set their country free.
What about the oppressiveregimes in the other types of countries?
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:57 PM   #35
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North Korea still has labor camps where they send you for not agreeing with the state.
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:54 PM   #36
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He's trying to pivot to be China 2.0. One look at China and their wealth, who wouldn't want to copy them?
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:23 PM   #37
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North Korea is still Best Korea.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:26 AM   #38
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They've been divided for too long. 2013 is like two different worlds compared to 1960s of NK & SK.

Oh man, I can already picture civil unrest and nation-wide clusterfvck happening if magically NK floods into SK.

I can see SK discriminating against NK, calling them commies and low class SK bitching how NK are taking their jobs, etc.

So so much disaster waiting to happen. SK doesn't want this.

Thankfully in reality, I don't think two Koreas would just open the floodgate and assimilate overnight. If reunification was to happen, it'll be VERY indirect and gradual while keeping the border online.
It's difficult for me to believe that the average South Korean is comfortable with a northern neighbor that has nuclear arms and a desperately poor citizenry. The long-run benefits of reunification just have to outweigh the costs.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:27 AM   #39
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edit - redundant
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:55 AM   #40
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Establishing peaceful relations, and then trade, is the only way North Korea ends without nuclear holocaust. So I welcome any step towards normalization.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:03 AM   #41
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Wrong again. Plus we already had the german unification as an example.
East germans wanted to come to the west. Not so with north koreans.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:10 AM   #42
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Think of it as Nixon going to China, not German reunification.

The goal should be establishing economic activity, trade, and interdependence.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:47 AM   #43
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The chance of North- and South Korea cooperating for the good of their people seems to be higher at least than the chance of the Republicans and Democrats working together to save the US economy.
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:25 AM   #44
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Neither China or SK want to deal with 30 million refugees. They would gladly accept trade and help but to allow the North to just open their borders and say the war is over is not going to happen. It is going to be an extremely slow process because they are going to have to have specialists to go in and somehow manage a transistion. The entire population is brain washed and it would be a huge shock to them to just see iPads, cars, freedom, etc.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:16 PM   #45
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The Supreme Leader is more worry about bad acting soap operas from S. Korea = http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-cr...183212658.html
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:05 PM   #46
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It's a tarp...

I'm not even sure if S. Korea wants N. Korea's damaged and brainwashed citizens trying to assimilate into their society.
Well, these things take time. I hope it's true and that he does bring about much needed change for North Korea.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:54 PM   #47
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Well, these things take time. I hope it's true and that he does bring about much needed change for North Korea.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I agree with JulesMaximus, my minor quibble may lie in the time its takes once sides agree. Look a both German reunification and Vietnamese reunification, that took 50 and 30 years respectively to start because they became footballs external nations fought over. As first the French and then the USA tried to keep Vietnam divided, but once those external nations got dope slapped, the reunification was rapid and relatively bloodless. Somewhat the same in the reunification of East and West Germany once the US and Russia quit using the two German nations as a football.

I may, as a US citizen dislike the North Korean leadership, but I can't summon up an iota of hatred for the North Korean people. If Kim Jung UN is willing to work for reunification with South Korea, its in the interests of everyone in the world to just let it happen as rapidly as possible.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:41 AM   #48
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Psy's Gangnam Style is clearly directly responsible.

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Old 01-03-2013, 07:47 AM   #49
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Next country for capitalism to exploit cheap labor?
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:48 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Lemon law View Post
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I agree with JulesMaximus, my minor quibble may lie in the time its takes once sides agree. Look a both German reunification and Vietnamese reunification, that took 50 and 30 years respectively to start because they became footballs external nations fought over. As first the French and then the USA tried to keep Vietnam divided, but once those external nations got dope slapped, the reunification was rapid and relatively bloodless. Somewhat the same in the reunification of East and West Germany once the US and Russia quit using the two German nations as a football.

I may, as a US citizen dislike the North Korean leadership, but I can't summon up an iota of hatred for the North Korean people. If Kim Jung UN is willing to work for reunification with South Korea, its in the interests of everyone in the world to just let it happen as rapidly as possible.
Really?

My friends in VN said otherwise = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reeducation_camp

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After the Fall of Saigon on April 30, 1975, hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese men, from former officers in the armed forces (like the ARVN), to religious leaders, to employees of the Americans or the old government, were rounded up in reeducation camps to "learn about the ways of the new government." They were never tried or convicted of any crime. Many South Vietnamese men chose to flee on boats, but others had established lives in Vietnam, so did not flee but entered these camps in hopes of quickly reconciling with the new government and continuing their lives.
Plus millions of boat people = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_boat_people

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After the Vietnam War, many people in Cambodia, Laos, and especially Vietnam became refugees in the late 1970s and 1980s, after the fall of Saigon. In Vietnam, the new communist government sent many people who supported the old government in the South to "re-education camps", and others to "new economic zones." An estimated 1-2.5[1] million people were imprisoned with no formal charges or trials.[2] According to published academic studies in the United States and Europe, 165,000 people died in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's re-education camps.[2] Thousands were tortured or abused. Prisoners were incarcerated for as long as 17 years, with most terms ranging from three to 10 years.[2] In addition, the number of South Vietnamese executed could have been as high as 200,000[3] (Jacqueline Desbarats estimates an absolute minimum of 100,000 executions[1]), and 50,000 were killed performing slave labor in New Economic Zones[4] (out of 1 million deported[1]). There were also tens of thousands of suicides after the communist take-over and deaths from famine in the eighties.
These factors, coupled with poverty and the total destruction of Vietnam during the Vietnam war, caused millions of Vietnamese to flee. In 1979, Vietnam was again at war (Sino-Vietnamese War) with the People's Republic of China (PRC). Many ethnic Chinese living in Vietnam, who felt that the government's policies directly targeted them, also became "boat people." On the open seas, the boat people had to face deadly storms, diseases and starvation, and elude pirates. Commonly cited estimates of the number that died at sea range from 200,000 to 400,000.[5]
Hundreds of thousands of former S. Vietnam officers/employees and millions of boat people =! relative bloodless.
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