Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Hardware and Technology > CPUs and Overclocking

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals
· Free Stuff
· Contests and Sweepstakes
· Black Friday 2013
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-28-2012, 01:06 PM   #51
Centauri
Golden Member
 
Centauri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 1,328
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ventanni View Post
I will admit my own over-excitement for Jaguar, but I think AMD will scale its Jaguar line up to 100w and replace the Bulldozer architecture altogether.
It makes sense. AMD needs to focus on a select number of designs, and Jaguar has a better chance of cheaply becoming a TDP-competitive high end offering than Bulldozer does of becoming TDP competitive in any segment.
__________________
AMD A10-7850K APU/Gigabyte GA-F2A88XM-D3H/8GBs of Patriot Viper 3 2133/128GB Samsung SSD + 4TB Seagate/Antec EA-380D/Windows 8.1
Centauri is offline  
Old 12-28-2012, 01:11 PM   #52
inf64
Platinum Member
 
inf64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,001
Default

100W Jaguar based server CPU?Why not. But a desktop one? Wishful thinking.
__________________
ShintaiDK:"There will be no APU in PS4 and Xbox720."
ShintaiDK:"No quadchannel either.[in Kaveri]"
CHADBOGA:"Because he[OBR] is a great man."
inf64 is offline  
Old 12-28-2012, 01:15 PM   #53
nehalem256
Lifer
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 12,975
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VirtualLarry View Post
100W Jaguar? What would that entail? If a quad-core Jaguar is 25W, would that mean a 12/16-core Jaguar? That would certainly be interesting, if only from a marketing POV.

"16 CORE JAGUAR CPU!"
It depends on how much of 25W is the cpu cores. If it takes say 7W to go from 2 to 4 cores it might only take say 75W for a 16-core Jaguar. Although you would have to also probably go to a dual-channel memory controller to keep the kitty fed.
nehalem256 is offline  
Old 12-28-2012, 01:25 PM   #54
AtenRa
Diamond Member
 
AtenRa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 5,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelUser2000 View Post
Yea, but because they have a quad core version. Probably the 25W will be 4 core while 18W would remain dual core.
There will be quad core Kabini at 18W.
Having a Full Node shrink, gives them the ability to ~double the transistor count and at the same time keep the same power consumption. That means we could have double the Brazos(quad core, 160 Radeon cores) at the same 18W. Add that the Jaguar cores are more efficient and with an even more efficient iGPU than VLIW5 that Brazos has and you can have a very powerful SoC at 18W.
__________________
Thief : Mantle CPU Scaling and Power evaluation
(10 CPUs at default and Overclock, including Power Consumption)
AtenRa is online now  
Old 12-28-2012, 01:29 PM   #55
Ventanni
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 766
Default

Quote:
100W Jaguar? What would that entail? If a quad-core Jaguar is 25W, would that mean a 12/16-core Jaguar? That would certainly be interesting, if only from a marketing POV.

"16 CORE JAGUAR CPU!"
Just hope it doesn't break down after pulling it out of the "driveway", err case, lol.

But anyways, Brazos was a stripped down K10 core if I remember right. Jaguar is an improvement on Brazos, so really this is just an evolution of where the original K10 architecture could go. It's not fair to directly compare to what Intel did, but the Bulldozer story is awfully similar to the Netburst one. I think architectures like these (Bulldozer/Netburst) are, or could be, a theoretically superior product on paper, but they both run into the same problem; in order to be great, they run into a thermal wall, or at least they break the physical limits of how fast a silicon transistor can realistically switch on a mass produce-able, reliable scale.

Also, if you have a 100w server product, you have a 100w desktop product too. Both Intel and AMD already do this.

Back to where I'm going with this though, it just seems like Brazos/Jaguar is a reimagining of K10. They've stripped it down, improved on some aspects, integrated it with a GPU, and unlike Bulldozer, they've actually made money off of it. And, they've also integrated it into an SoC design (hello tablet world!). It just seems natural that Jaguar-Core-Next (lawlz I made that up) will be the next primary architecture for AMD after Steamroller/Excavator.

But that's just me. I could be a bit too excited about it, so I'll admit that.
__________________
Desktop: Core i7 3770k, 8GB, Geforce 560 Ti
HTPC: Core2 Q6600, 4GB, Geforce 285
Ventanni is offline  
Old 12-28-2012, 01:55 PM   #56
inf64
Platinum Member
 
inf64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,001
Default

Bobcat is a new design and not a K10 derivative.
__________________
ShintaiDK:"There will be no APU in PS4 and Xbox720."
ShintaiDK:"No quadchannel either.[in Kaveri]"
CHADBOGA:"Because he[OBR] is a great man."
inf64 is offline  
Old 12-28-2012, 02:05 PM   #57
NTMBK
Diamond Member
 
NTMBK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtenRa View Post
If im not mistaken Kabini will have integrated FCH.
You're mistaken, I'm afraid.



The 2nd Gen Low Power APU is Kabini, 1st Gen SoC is Temash.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximilian View Post
I like my VRMs how I like my hookers, hot and Taiwanese.
NTMBK is online now  
Old 12-28-2012, 03:07 PM   #58
pablo87
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 298
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by inf64 View Post
@ pablo

AMD cannot design and produce "15" designs. What you suggest takes engineering resources and time(and money). They CAN make GPU-less Trinity.

From various reviews we see that at most Vishera can be 15% faster than L3-less Piledriver bu this is corner case. In reality the difference is closer to ~4-5% on average.

GPU-less 2M Pilderiver @32nm would take about half of Trinity's die area(so ~120mm^2). 4M Piledriver with no L3 would in turn take ~200mm^2(count in only 2 additional modules and a bit more of "dead area"). 200mm^2 on 32nm sounds a lot better than 320mm^2 ,and both are with automated tools involved.

Imagine if AMD had access to intel's money and fabs: PD or even better SR on 22nm intel-level fab tech with hand optimized layouts and 8 different dies(2/4M with and without L3 for server/desktop; 1/2M with GPU and without L3). Now since AMD has no money and cannot make such variations in their product mix in timely manner,they are doomed to die salvage what they can. Unfortunately.
Inf64,

I was suggesting that were it not for the WSA, Bobcat becomes the architecture for APUs (AMD's market is different than Intel - their lack of corporate business means their APUs are more or less relegated to Consumer/SMB and in that space, good enough is good enough) and that all of it is fabbed at TSMC.

Do you think I'm wrong to think this would save engineering resources (porting GPU cores to GF among other things) that could be applied to permutations of Brazos (higher performing GPU, with perhaps external GDDR)?

Also, my suggestion was not to have Trinity at all, just have Piledriver on AM2. At which point, it begs the question, is AM3 needed? So you end up cutting 2 efforts - Trinity and Vishera/AM3, so would there not be more engineering resources saved by AMD?

Moreover, is it possible that there is an opportunity cost to developing PD Trinity and supporting 2 sockets, that could have been applied to core development - maybe L3 less SR on AM2 comes out faster?

A little off topic - holistic approach always seems to be.
pablo87 is offline  
Old 12-28-2012, 03:18 PM   #59
pablo87
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 298
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insert_Nickname View Post
Ehm, they are doing that already...

They are called Athlon II X4 730/740/750K. Yes the 750K has an unlocked multiplier...

And so no one can claim they are not available:

http://www.proshop.dk/CPU/AMD-Black-...r-2382433.html

In stock and for sale...
Yeah but no stock in Aarhus, maybe we can get Lego to make us some?

My target price would be $60, lets see that would be 3x as profitable as OEM Trinity.
pablo87 is offline  
Old 12-28-2012, 03:31 PM   #60
ShintaiDK
Diamond Member
 
ShintaiDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 9,539
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablo87 View Post
Yeah but no stock in Aarhus, maybe we can get Lego to make us some?

My target price would be $60, lets see that would be 3x as profitable as OEM Trinity.
You know what "fjernlager" means?

And Lego is in Billund.

Last edited by ShintaiDK; 12-28-2012 at 03:33 PM.
ShintaiDK is online now  
Old 12-28-2012, 08:57 PM   #61
IntelUser2000
Elite Member
 
IntelUser2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,388
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtenRa View Post
There will be quad core Kabini at 18W.
Having a Full Node shrink, gives them the ability to ~double the transistor count and at the same time keep the same power consumption. That means we could have double the Brazos(quad core, 160 Radeon cores) at the same 18W. Add that the Jaguar cores are more efficient and with an even more efficient iGPU than VLIW5 that Brazos has and you can have a very powerful SoC at 18W.
Sure, there will be a 18W quad core, but the frequency will be significantly lower. The 7W increase is there to get similar frequency as the dual core Brazos at 18W. I wouldn't be surprised we'll see a dual core 25W part that clocks 10-15% higher than the quad too.

The days where you go 50% reduction in power every process is gone. It's now ~30%. Also you have the memory controller and I/O that scales even worse and still takes up power.

You can multiply amount of transistors many times as you want, but it'll be limited by power use how high it'll perform.
__________________
Core i7 2600K + Turbo Boost | Intel DH67BL/GMA HD 3000 IGP | Corsair XMS3 2x2GB DDR3-1600 @ 1333 9-9-9-24 |
Intel X25-M G1 80GB + Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | OCZ Modstream 450W | Samsung Syncmaster 931c | Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit | Microsoft Sidewinder Mouse | Viliv S5-Atom Z520 WinXP UMPC
IntelUser2000 is offline  
Old 12-28-2012, 09:38 PM   #62
IntelUser2000
Elite Member
 
IntelUser2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,388
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abwx View Post
......

It looks like a good chip, but there's nothing that makes it stand out. It'll have to play between rock(Clover Trail) and a hard place(Core).

There's a technical reason for that. Care to guess why?
__________________
Core i7 2600K + Turbo Boost | Intel DH67BL/GMA HD 3000 IGP | Corsair XMS3 2x2GB DDR3-1600 @ 1333 9-9-9-24 |
Intel X25-M G1 80GB + Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | OCZ Modstream 450W | Samsung Syncmaster 931c | Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit | Microsoft Sidewinder Mouse | Viliv S5-Atom Z520 WinXP UMPC
IntelUser2000 is offline  
Old 12-28-2012, 10:52 PM   #63
pablo87
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 298
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmt View Post
So what? >10%, frequency, something, die reduction, anything, if you have 15%, 20%, 50%, you don't put >10% on a presentation.
After all the promises and failure to meet expectations, it would be about time for AMD to promise something that is acceptable to buyers, and then follow thru by exceeding those promises.

Its called managing expectations and its common sense/mgmt 101.

Though common sense is something I've come not to expect from AMD.
pablo87 is offline  
Old 12-28-2012, 10:55 PM   #64
pablo87
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 298
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShintaiDK View Post
You know what "fjernlager" means?

And Lego is in Billund.
No, I'm afraid not.

Yes I know.
pablo87 is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 02:58 AM   #65
krumme
Golden Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,993
Default

As Pablo says the WSA clouds all rational decisions.

But if we look at the difference to bobcat what strikes is the new powergating, on top of the lower leaking 28nm process. When a core is like 4mm2 ?, its basicly free to add more cores concerning production cost and also in regards to battery life. That spells low end laptop and also desktop market, as addition to the tablet market.

We know that the Hyderabad team was about 80 persons putting all the IP together. So its a arch that is very cheap to scale, and technically very obvious to do it.


I dont think AMD today have the organization and cash to maintain a more complex arch. There is not point in beeing number 2 in this market. Kabini obviously have a huge target market where low power - and expensive - Atom, nor expensive Haswell will be able to compete.

Last edited by krumme; 12-29-2012 at 03:00 AM.
krumme is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 03:02 AM   #66
AtenRa
Diamond Member
 
AtenRa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 5,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelUser2000 View Post
Sure, there will be a 18W quad core, but the frequency will be significantly lower. The 7W increase is there to get similar frequency as the dual core Brazos at 18W. I wouldn't be surprised we'll see a dual core 25W part that clocks 10-15% higher than the quad too.

The days where you go 50% reduction in power every process is gone. It's now ~30%. Also you have the memory controller and I/O that scales even worse and still takes up power.

You can multiply amount of transistors many times as you want, but it'll be limited by power use how high it'll perform.
According to TSMC, 28nm HP has 45% more speed, ~2x transistor density at the same leakage as 40nm G process that Brazos is using.

Take as an example the Radeon HD7970 produced at 28nm HP at TSMC against the HD6970 at 40nm G process.

HD7970 has ~63% more transistors, higher frequency with smaller die and close the same power consumption as HD6970 at 40nm G.

That means that Brazos at 28nm could have almost double the CPU cores, double the Radeon cores, almost same frequency 1.6-1.7GHz and same power consumption (18W) as Brazos at 40nm.
Now, add a 15% higher IPC (or higher for single core) and an improved more efficient with more Radeon Cores iGPU and you have a winner at 18W.

Of-course a dual core could be clocked higher(maybe up to 40-50%) and keep the same 18W TDP.
I will say that a ~2.5GHz Dual core Jaguar would be faster than a 2GHz Dual core Single Module Trinity at 18W (A6-
4455M 2.1GHz base with 256 Radeon Cores at 17W) at half the die size .
__________________
Thief : Mantle CPU Scaling and Power evaluation
(10 CPUs at default and Overclock, including Power Consumption)
AtenRa is online now  
Old 12-29-2012, 03:41 AM   #67
Haserath
Senior Member
 
Haserath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 701
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmt View Post
So what? >10%, frequency, something, die reduction, anything, if you have 15%, 20%, 50%, you don't put >10% on a presentation.
They could try the Bulldozer strategy.

Promise the moon then explode on the launch pad.
Haserath is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 05:36 AM   #68
VirtualLarry
Lifer
 
VirtualLarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 24,475
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtenRa View Post
I will say that a ~2.5GHz Dual core Jaguar would be faster than a 2GHz Dual core Single Module Trinity at 18W (A6-
4455M 2.1GHz base with 256 Radeon Cores at 17W) at half the die size .
That would indeed be pretty impressive if they could pull that off.
__________________
Rig(s) not listed, because I change computers, like some people change their socks.
ATX is for poor people. And 'gamers.' - phucheneh
haswell is bulldozer... - aigomorla
"DON'T BUY INTEL, they will send secret signals down the internet, which
will considerably slow down your computer". - SOFTengCOMPelec
VirtualLarry is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 06:13 AM   #69
NTMBK
Diamond Member
 
NTMBK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtenRa View Post
According to TSMC, 28nm HP has 45% more speed, ~2x transistor density at the same leakage as 40nm G process that Brazos is using.

Take as an example the Radeon HD7970 produced at 28nm HP at TSMC against the HD6970 at 40nm G process.

HD7970 has ~63% more transistors, higher frequency with smaller die and close the same power consumption as HD6970 at 40nm G.

That means that Brazos at 28nm could have almost double the CPU cores, double the Radeon cores, almost same frequency 1.6-1.7GHz and same power consumption (18W) as Brazos at 40nm.
Now, add a 15% higher IPC (or higher for single core) and an improved more efficient with more Radeon Cores iGPU and you have a winner at 18W.

Of-course a dual core could be clocked higher(maybe up to 40-50%) and keep the same 18W TDP.
I will say that a ~2.5GHz Dual core Jaguar would be faster than a 2GHz Dual core Single Module Trinity at 18W (A6-
4455M 2.1GHz base with 256 Radeon Cores at 17W) at half the die size .
AtenRa, don't get too carried away. Don't BullDozer this. It looks like it has potential, but if you hype it as if it is going to be the next Conroe Moment then it's probably going to crash and burn, and people are going to lash out at it.

Wait until we have hard numbers, and until reviewers have silicon in hand and benchmarks to show us. Then if it turns out as brilliant as you had hoped, shout it from the rooftops! Don't get this worked up over a handful of slides and some very rough estimates from TSMC. There's plenty more involved in what clock speeds can be attained than just the process involved, you know that.

Chill out. Be upbeat about it, sure. But if you build it up this much, then people are just going to tear it down if it performs even slightly below the extremely high expectations you're setting for it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximilian View Post
I like my VRMs how I like my hookers, hot and Taiwanese.
NTMBK is online now  
Old 12-29-2012, 06:34 AM   #70
AtenRa
Diamond Member
 
AtenRa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 5,202
Default

NTMBK, im not hyping anything, what i said above is doable with a Full Node shrink and better more optimized microarchitecture design.

Dont forget that Trinity Module has a 10-20% hit in performance from the CMT when Jaguar does not. Add that Trinity have less IPC than Phenom II and we can speculate that Jaguar at the same frequency is very close. Put all together and you end up having the same or more performance at reduced die size.
It is from all of those that i have said that perhaps AMD will replace the low end 25W and bellow Trinity with Kabini.

The only thing we dont know yet is the Radeon Cores, im expecting between 128 and 256.
__________________
Thief : Mantle CPU Scaling and Power evaluation
(10 CPUs at default and Overclock, including Power Consumption)
AtenRa is online now  
Old 12-29-2012, 06:52 AM   #71
Abwx
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelUser2000 View Post
It looks like a good chip, but there's nothing that makes it stand out. It'll have to play between rock(Clover Trail) and a hard place(Core).

There's a technical reason for that. Care to guess why?
Clover Trail is not in the same league , Kabini has four hard cores
with each being more efficient than a CT core.

Core offering is undoubtly of higher perfs but it is also more expensive
to manufacture.

What will be instrumental to its eventual success is its ability
to fill the needs of the value market wich the previous offering
was not capable given its low IPC , frequency and core count.

As a two cores CPU it would be completely wiped out by either
i3s or Trinity but the quad core sibling has exactly what is needed
to compete with the lower parts of the mentionned CPUs , wich
can be a problem if it is priced too low as it is obvious that
a 4C part will be more attractive than a 2C Trinity for any
average consumer.
Abwx is online now  
Old 12-29-2012, 06:57 AM   #72
Insert_Nickname
Golden Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,454
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShintaiDK View Post
You know what "fjernlager" means?
It just means the Danish distributor (dunno who proshop uses though) has it in stock... but you're right it could be very far away...

I almost hate to write it, but with that pricing its actually looking semi-competitive with a G5xx/G6xx/G8xx system. That's if you're using a discrete GFX card. A55 based boards cost about the same as H61's do. It's even unlocked, so it could possibly do 4.2ish...

Only problem is that another 200,- DKK will get you a 3220...
Insert_Nickname is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 07:07 AM   #73
inf64
Platinum Member
 
inf64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,001
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insert_Nickname View Post
It just means the Danish distributor (dunno who proshop uses though) has it in stock... but you're right it could be very far away...

I almost hate to write it, but with that pricing its actually looking semi-competitive with a G5xx/G6xx/G8xx system. That's if you're using a discrete GFX card. A55 based boards cost about the same as H61's do. It's even unlocked, so it could possibly do 4.2ish...

Only problem is that another 200,- DKK will get you a 3220...
It does ~4.5Ghz on air cooling with vcore bump . And when OCed it's more than competitive .
__________________
ShintaiDK:"There will be no APU in PS4 and Xbox720."
ShintaiDK:"No quadchannel either.[in Kaveri]"
CHADBOGA:"Because he[OBR] is a great man."
inf64 is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 07:19 AM   #74
beginner99
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,072
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by inf64 View Post
Same as always. If you OC you will need to spend another $40+ for better cooling and hence you could get a better, locked Intel CPU that performs just as well.

Besides that I don't see the point of a quad-core in low power devices. You don't want to trans code movies or anything with this anyway so a dual-core with higher IPC would be much better IMHO. Even in a desktop if you don't play games or do transcoding or similar stuff a dual-core is perfectly fine.

Last edited by beginner99; 12-29-2012 at 07:23 AM.
beginner99 is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 07:22 AM   #75
inf64
Platinum Member
 
inf64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,001
Default

Or you can get HyperTX3 for 20$ on newegg? It's always some reason not to buy AMD with you... Sure,why not buy a WC setup to OC lowly Athlon that costs 65 euros? Wait it's unlocked,let's try LN2?

PS In the link I provided it's competitive versus OCed i3 3220,not stock. To OC i3 you need a better mobo that allows you to use Turbo multipliers,to OC 750K you don't.
__________________
ShintaiDK:"There will be no APU in PS4 and Xbox720."
ShintaiDK:"No quadchannel either.[in Kaveri]"
CHADBOGA:"Because he[OBR] is a great man."
inf64 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.