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Old 12-26-2012, 08:55 PM   #1
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Default hum... 2-stroke oil in gas

http://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-91206/

any takers?
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:05 PM   #2
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I know the gasoline today is shit.
2nd sentence, stupidity confirmed
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:38 PM   #3
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Not in gas powered cars of today mainly due to the sensors and cats...

But...! I use it all the time in my Duramax diesel as it cleans the system (injectors) and engine noise is reduced as well...
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:40 PM   #4
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Seems pretty dumb to me. Maybe I will put an electric turbo on my car now.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:31 PM   #5
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I tried it for kicks a while back. Did nothing at least mpg wise. Can't say about internal cleanness or anything as I didn't tear stuff apart. I can see the improved compression however - a test for worn rings is to dribble a little oil in the cylinder after testing and see if the next test shows higher numbers. Makes me think this would work better on vehicles that have either worn rings or just poorly fitting pistons/rings to begin with.

Several suspect comments in there. "ATF has no lubricating properties either" the heck does he think it does in the transmission then?

I dunno, i still have some of that old bottle left. Maybe give it a go in my current vehicle that has a lot of miles on it now just to see what happens
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:25 AM   #6
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2nd sentence, stupidity confirmed

Don't you know, that's why we keep getting more and more power recovered out of less and less of it...
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:13 AM   #7
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Note the posts saying "I do this and get great results and haven't had any problems"...

That's the exact same argument people use for K&N filters. What do people think the problems are going to be? The engine exploding? And do they really believe a "1mpg improvement" is meaningful? That's well within the margin of error for real world driving.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:22 AM   #8
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I tried it for kicks a while back. Did nothing at least mpg wise. Can't say about internal cleanness or anything as I didn't tear stuff apart. I can see the improved compression however - a test for worn rings is to dribble a little oil in the cylinder after testing and see if the next test shows higher numbers. Makes me think this would work better on vehicles that have either worn rings or just poorly fitting pistons/rings to begin with.

Several suspect comments in there. "ATF has no lubricating properties either" the heck does he think it does in the transmission then?

I dunno, i still have some of that old bottle left. Maybe give it a go in my current vehicle that has a lot of miles on it now just to see what happens
I used to use ATF in my old car. My mechanic at the time told me it would help clean the injectors. Guy knew his stuff and it never seemed to do any harm to the car. Still ran great up until the body gave out. It was an 80s car mind you. I also use ATF in my model engines while wintering them to keep the bearings from seizing.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:31 PM   #9
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Not in gas powered cars of today mainly due to the sensors and cats...
Completely wrong.

TC-W3 (read: low ash) is fine.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:47 PM   #10
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peeps have been adding tc-w3 to gas tanks for as long as I can remember.
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:20 PM   #11
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Note the posts saying "I do this and get great results and haven't had any problems"...

That's the exact same argument people use for K&N filters. What do people think the problems are going to be? The engine exploding? And do they really believe a "1mpg improvement" is meaningful? That's well within the margin of error for real world driving.
But if the 1 MPG improvement is consistent then it is meaningful. I never noticed such a thing on my old car however.
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:26 PM   #12
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It would void the warranty.

If anything happens, it will be blamed on this anyway.
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:44 PM   #13
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Completely wrong.

TC-W3 (read: low ash) is fine.
Sure no problem just keep using it...
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Old 12-27-2012, 06:20 PM   #14
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Sure no problem just keep using it...
Lots of old timers used to do this. As long as its low ash and at 500 to 1 you shouldnt have any issues.

I have a winter beater expedition with 245k miles with a slight rough idle. lets give it a try!!!


may not now that I think about it......hmmm..atg..should I try it? probably not

objectively it shouldnt damage the fuel pump and would probably help a little. I am skeptical of the claims that it cleans ring guides.
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Old 12-27-2012, 06:43 PM   #15
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'Gasoline is too dry,' says this guy? (no, this isn't the beginning of a poem)

Does he understand the concept of a modern four stroke engine? Everything that needs lubrication... receives lubrication. I'm guessing he doesn't understand the concept of internal oil flow...nothing is 'dry.' Even the common sources of excessive oil burning (valve seals/guides and piston rings/cylinder walls) are succeptible to such because they are intended to have SOME lubrication.

As mentioned earlier, all this might do is help to clean carbon deposits. And that's debatable...trans fluid or something else detergent-heavy would probably be better. Or something with solvents (oh wait, gas is a solvent...).

But you're going to generate large amounts of smoke that are most certainly going to descreable (edit: wtf? 'decrease'...'descreable' sounds like a cool word, though) the life of the converter's catalyst material...if not completely destroy (melt) it.

...but I hope this guys runs with his idea. Every time a Camaro breaks due to owner stupidity, an angel gets its wings.

edit: and as far as 'as long as the ratio is low enough...'

Congrats, you're now a believer in holistic (as per the corrupted, non-literal meaning) medicine. 'As long as I dilute it enough, it can't hurt me! Conversely, it must be good!'

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Old 12-27-2012, 07:25 PM   #16
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It would void the warranty.

If anything happens, it will be blamed on this anyway.
Not if you don't tell them. How will they know, if the engine fails and they dealer has to replace it? It's not like there'd be anything inside to give it away, and that's ASSuming they even bother to tear it down in the first place. Most dealerships nowadays, if there's an internal engine issue, they just put another motor in it.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:45 PM   #17
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It gets sent back to manufacturer, though. For a core, if nothing else. For stuff without a core, parts just sit in a storage space at the dealer until a specific amount of time has passed (without the carmaker asking for the part), then they can be thrown away.

If it is a special/unusual case, or if they are simply getting lots of reports of the same part failing, they may want to do a failure analysis.

...but if the claim gets rejected because of their testing, that burns the dealer, not you.

I've mentioned this kinda stuff before. People seem to be under the misguided impression that engine/trans failures are immediately torn down, the fluid sent out for analysis, ect. It's just not the case...the dealer is generally the one who decides if it is a suspicious case that needs to be looked into further. And that means they see obvious signs of neglect, a prior collision, ect.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:06 PM   #18
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That tiny bit of oil isn't going to leave marks behind or damage anything. Since when does a few drops of oil destroy an engine? Really? Won't happen.

Saying that it is pointless is one thing as there is plenty of evidence to support that. But saying that oil will lead to engine failure is ridiculous. If that were possible, why don't engines completely implode once they start burning oil? If engines can run for thousands of miles puffing on used engine oil, a little bit of fresh clean oil in the fuel isn't going to harm a darn thing.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:28 PM   #19
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Lots of old timers used to do this. As long as its low ash and at 500 to 1 you shouldnt have any issues.

I have a winter beater expedition with 245k miles with a slight rough idle. lets give it a try!!!


may not now that I think about it......hmmm..atg..should I try it? probably not

objectively it shouldnt damage the fuel pump and would probably help a little. I am skeptical of the claims that it cleans ring guides.
Old timers...? Uh I am one... Also 500 to 1...? Do not think that would be of any benefit or harm...? What are ring guides...? Think you mean "ring grooves" or "valve guides"...? I did run across something rather interesting about the various 2 stroke oils... BTW TCW3 is "ashless" while TCW2 is "low ash"... Also all TCW3 oils may not give the results that are desired in cars and just remember it is NOT designed for 4 stroke gas engines so swear by it or possibly swear at it (your choice)...
Quote:
Quote from Spectro oils:

Most of the OEM manufacturers oils are produced by specialty lubricant manufacturers, not the OEM and these formulas are tested and approved by the manufacturer for use in their sleds. The oils are blended according to a formula that has been developed for two-stroke snowmobile engines and this oil is usually given a rating from the American Petroleum Institute (API) of "TC", the Boating Industry Association (BIA) rating of "TC-W", or the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) rating of "TC-W II." All of these formulas were originally developed for outboard engines and were modified to suit the needs of snowmobile engines; however, motorcyclists that used these oils found that their air cooled engines ran the best on the oldest API TC oils. These API TC formulas contained a higher level of bright stock 150, a high density petroleum base stock with a consistency similar to honey, that gave the best protection against piston seizure and bearing failure. To prevent carbon buildup in the piston ring grooves, these TC oils used metal based detergents that were very effective in motorcycle engines but caused some problems in outboard engines when operated at long periods of time at one throttle setting. A whisker-like bridge could form across the sparkplug gap to permanently foul a cylinder under these conditions while the motorcyclist operating his engine at a constantly changing throttle setting never encountered this problem. When the BIA developed the TC-W rating, they excluded the use of these metal-based detergents in favor of organic detergents to eliminate this problem in outboard engines. These TC-W oils (two-cycle, water cooled) also contained lighter base oils without the bright stock 150. For engines operating in the 4,000 rpm to 5,000 rpm range, the absence of the bright stock 150 had no affect on piston and bearing life. However, off-road motorcyclists testing these new TC-W oils were disappointed with the bearing life of their engines operating at 10,000 - 11,000 rpm and quickly returned to using the TC oils.

The need for a clean two-stroke outboard oil was recognized when piston ring groove carbonization was seen as a primary cause for engine failure and a new formula designated TC-W II was developed. While this oil was significantly better for outboard use and was phosphate free, it still was not the optimum two-stroke oil for engines operating above 8,000 rpm. The phosphate free mandate was from a concern raised by environmentalists that realized that outboard engine use could permanently pollute fresh waterways just as the soap industry was beginning to eliminate phosphates from their products for the same reasons. But, snowmobiles, motorcycles and quads do not emit their exhaust directly into the water, as outboards do. Recently, efforts to develop an even cleaner outboard oil have produced the latest NMMA TC-W3 and this oil, although containing no bright stock 150, has produced better levels of lubricity and cleanliness in piston ring groove areas, however, still not nearly as good as a purely 'snowmobile use' developed oil.

The BIA evolved into the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) which works closely with the outboard manufacturers. the NMMA mandated that all oils would contain non-metallic detergent additives, no phosphorus or phosphates, if they were to have the approval of the NMMA and the outboard engine manufacturers agreed to recommend only the NMMA approved oils.

Also, many marine dealers were concerned about the flammability and flash point of out board oils. Since larger engines were now consuming huge amounts of oil they had to stock several hundred cases of oil per season. This amount of oil stored in one location had alerted the fire marshals and insurance companies attention and a solution to this risk was addressed by the NMMA. Higher flash point oil with a flash point over 200 deg. F was what they needed to achieve a category 3B fluid rating, just enough to avoid the hazardous storage and shipping restrictions they were facing with all other two cycle oils. Oil manufacturers were forced to use TC-W3 additives or blends with high flash solvents if they were allowed to keep the NMMA license. The high flash solvents caused all sorts of unburned oil problems in engines, but the insurance carriers were happy.The combination of non-metallic detergents and high flash solvents in the new TC-W 3 oils later caused some severe ring sticking in many engines and Yamaha actually required owners to use a 'ring-free' fuel additive to maintain their warranty, a symptom of being forced by the NMMA to recommend the new oils!

This is almost exactly the same situation that developed with the American Petroleum Institute (API) and the Automobile Manufacturers. They were dealing with legislation that mandated exhaust emission systems to last a certain mileage under warranty and catalytic converter failure was known to be linked to the zinc-phosphorus content in motor oils. The API, in response to the auto makers, soon mandated restricted levels of these additives and is slowly lowering them. The problem was that motorcyclists depended on these zinc-phosphorus additives to protect their higher reving motors from damage and they were a victim of a legislation that did not even apply to them (very few motorcycles have a catalytic converter). Now snowmobilers are victims of this exact same legislative situation, the elimination of phosphorus from two-cycle oils. But they do not need to be! Why? Because motorcyclists and snowmobilers can buy motorcycle oils and snowmobile oils and bypass the restrictions placed on automobiles and outboard boats.

Sea-Doo and Ski-Doo didn't go with the NMMA, they refused to allow their engines to be destroyed and recommended to their owners NOT TO EVER USE TC-W3 oils! Polaris bought the TC-W3 sales pitch at first, recognizing an inventory advantage to having only one two cycle oil to be used in their watercraft, quads and snowmobiles. But they soon discovered the same problems many had already found with the TC-W3 oils when used in a sled. Ring sticking, exhaust port blocking and low temperature flow problems. Suddenly all those advantages of the TC-W3 oils they read about from the additive maker's brochures weren't working out when weighed against all the engine failures! Have you noticed they have gone back to purely snowmobile developed snowmobile oils? Currently there are not any snowmobile OEM's recommending the outboard NMMA TC-W3 oil, and there is a reason for this. They are not acceptable in today's powervalve equipped snowmobiles! Only oil companies with little actual knowledge of snowmobiles and their specific needs continue to try to sell snowmobilers an outboard oil for their snowmobile...and this is because they have a vested interest in doing so...economy of scale by combining several markets into one and selling just one oil. Do not fall for their sales pitch!

In Japan, engine manufacturers have developed a series of strenuous engine tests that can identify poor quality oils if they don’t measure up in performance. They tested over 250 samples of two-stroke oils worldwide and used the survey results to establish these engine tests. This became the JASO classification system. (Japanese automobile standards organization).

The tests include a detergency test, lubricity test, initial torque test, exhaust smoke test and exhaust blocking test. These tests have a much closer connection to actual snowmobile engine applications compared to TC-W3 tests which are all conducted on raw-water cooled outboard engines. And for the first time ever, an oil can fail the test if it smokes too much!

The detergency test evaluates the oil’s ability to maintain the cleanliness of critical engine parts, including exhaust power valves. This is very important on power valve equipped Rotax, Yamaha and Polaris engines. The lubricity test measures two things. First, the engine is run with a load for 50 minutes then the cooling system is disconnected for ten minutes and the resulting drop in horsepower is recorded. This cycle is repeated several times and each drop in power is compared and it must not vary more than a specified amount or be more than a specified amount. Then the engine is run with increasingly leaner oil ratios: 60:1, 100:1 then 150:1. If no seizure occurs and power is maintained within a specified percentage, the oil passes. The initial torque test measures the engine’s startability when cold, an important consideration for 3-cylinder sleds.

The exhaust blocking and smoking tests are run by mixing the test oil at an over-rich 10:1 ratio and running it in a two-stroke portable generator. The exhaust is channeled into a chamber where a photo cell measures the light that can pass through the smoke. It sounds crude but it works! Finally, a real world test to measure exhaust smoke from two-stroke engines! The exhaust blocking test simply examines the pencil sized exhaust outlet for carbon blocking. At a 10:1 ratio, these tests are very hard to pass. The highest JASO rating is FC. Lower ratings are "FB" and "FA." An even higher "FD" rating could be seen in the future. Most TC-W3 oils will not pass any of these tests!
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:53 PM   #20
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Old timers...? Uh I am one... Also 500 to 1...? Do not think that would be of any benefit or harm...? What are ring guides...? Think you mean "ring grooves" or "valve guides"...? I did run across something rather interesting about the various 2 stroke oils... BTW TCW3 is "ashless" while TCW2 is "low ash"... Also all TCW3 oils may not give the results that are desired in cars and just remember it is NOT designed for 4 stroke gas engines so swear by it or possibly swear at it (your choice)...
yes I meant ring grooves. Was really just playing devils advocate. At such a low ratio it probably doesn't do anything. As you say to use 2 cycle oil in the engine would yield catastrophic results. Now adding such a low mix to fuel shouldn't harm anything.

I did read a little of the thread though my appetite for 60 + pages of babbling is behind me in my old age.

I remember my dad telling me stories of guys in the 40s and 50s doing this. Now tolerances were a hair looser in those days.....


I in no way endorsed the practice, was just having a little fun.


After rereading what I wrote I can only assume that you took my comment about it possibly helping lubricate the fuel pump as an endorsement. It wasnt. The last thing I wrote clearly says I am skeptical.

I will get off your lawn now.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:59 PM   #21
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I will get off your lawn now.
No way dood your no where near it...

But yea have to agree years back it was used quite often but with today's newer systems it would not be a wise choice... As for a catastrophic engine failure no way and do not want that impression given (if used in the fuel not the "crankcase" which is a different story)... While it might cause an issue with a Cat or and O2 sensor over time depending on the ratio it wont hurt much else but in that article it leads to the conclusion that it might just gunk up certain parts...?

I would just opt for a "good" fuel system cleaner and even consider the middle grade of fuel or better... But what do I know I drive a diesel...

Its all good...
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:04 PM   #22
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That tiny bit of oil isn't going to leave marks behind or damage anything. Since when does a few drops of oil destroy an engine? Really? Won't happen.

Saying that it is pointless is one thing as there is plenty of evidence to support that. But saying that oil will lead to engine failure is ridiculous. If that were possible, why don't engines completely implode once they start burning oil? If engines can run for thousands of miles puffing on used engine oil, a little bit of fresh clean oil in the fuel isn't going to harm a darn thing.
Thousands of miles burning engine oil can and does ruin catalytic converters. Depending on the vehicle and how far you push it, this can lead to significant engine problems (from a restricted exhaust).

Most typically: At best, premature ring/cylinder wear. At worst, blown head gasket. Depending on your definition of best/worst...easier to replace a head gasket than it is to rebuild a short block.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:26 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by phucheneh View Post
Thousands of miles burning engine oil can and does ruin catalytic converters. Depending on the vehicle and how far you push it, this can lead to significant engine problems (from a restricted exhaust).

Most typically: At best, premature ring/cylinder wear. At worst, blown head gasket. Depending on your definition of best/worst...easier to replace a head gasket than it is to rebuild a short block.
Well yeah, if you burn enough of it. But we're also not talking burning a quart of oil every hundred miles and smoke from the tailpipe. This is practically undetectable (and why I can't see it doing much in the first place, good or bad). Most manufacturer's allowable oil usage amounts are far above the tiny bit you'd be putting in your tank with this anyway.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:29 AM   #24
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I remember awhile back about "mob" gas in the NY/NJ area, this was the early 90's, what they did was mixed used motor oil with gas between 7-10%, the cars were running OK until some cat's got clogged and some mechanic's got suspicious and had the fuel analyzed and they found out what was going on. Pretty slick if you think about it, pretty angry if you were one of the one's with cat problems down the road..
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:32 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacfanweb View Post
Not if you don't tell them. How will they know, if the engine fails and they dealer has to replace it? It's not like there'd be anything inside to give it away, and that's ASSuming they even bother to tear it down in the first place. Most dealerships nowadays, if there's an internal engine issue, they just put another motor in it.
Sure, they'll never look at the fuel when a possible fuel related failure occurs and they have a big warranty repair...

Sure, they'll never look for any excuse to blame it on the owner...

Of course not...

I don't know what I was thinking...
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