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Old 12-20-2012, 12:35 PM   #51
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The buyers of these cars do not care. It's also cake for someone spending $100k+ on a ridiculous sports car to put in better seats if they choose (something that is a very personal choice based on your size and preferences). Ditto the shifter and pedals.

The materials for the door panels/dash/etc are utterly meaningless to most of those buyers as well.

Cost is an issue. That's why the R8 costs way more than the GT-R, even when the GT-R keeps up with it (even dominates it in many/most areas). Higher cost of materials and construction.

End of the day, pick what you want. Sales of Vettes are huge because it's a performance monster for the price, and is simple to add power to while still remaining reliable and efficient for what it is.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:06 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Fenixgoon View Post
the viper seats are the same as those found in ferraris...same supplier
Doesn't matter. They probably have different models so I'm sure they aren't exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by OVerLoRDI View Post
I just love the look of the Viper, always have. That is the car I'd choose.
Actually... with the new hood scoop on the Corvette, their fascias resemble each other. Similar scoop, similar slanted headlight lenses.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:38 AM   #53
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Viper rocks. Previous gens were so much more raw, this has become a tamed monster. Much better looking interior and exterior. So much potential in the right hands. Corvette just doesn't have it. Maybe the next gen.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:33 PM   #54
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Viper rocks. Previous gens were so much more raw, this has become a tamed monster. Much better looking interior and exterior. So much potential in the right hands. Corvette just doesn't have it. Maybe the next gen.
Did you read the article? The Viper interior still sucks. It just sucks less than it used to. The ZR1's sucks too, but both reviewers agreed it was still a more comfortable place to be. Many people can look past a low quality interior in cars like these, but it is very hard to overlook being terribly uncomfortable. The base performance numbers were dead even, with the ZR1 winning convincingly on the road course (Laguna Seca) while setting a lap record previously held by a Viper ACR. So how exactly does the "Vette not have it?"
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:48 PM   #55
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Why the fuck are there 30 posts about the interior of these cars? Talk about missing the point.

I can always count on threads here about american cars degenerating into a dash stroke fest. Ill tell you what. Until ferrari, audi, or anyone else for that matter, can build a car with this performance and price, they are completely irrelevant to this discussion.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:51 AM   #56
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:38 AM   #57
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Why the fuck are there 30 posts about the interior of these cars? Talk about missing the point.

I can always count on threads here about american cars degenerating into a dash stroke fest. Ill tell you what. Until ferrari, audi, or anyone else for that matter, can build a car with this performance and price, they are completely irrelevant to this discussion.
With a base Corvette, or even a Z06 you can make the excuse that corners had to be cut somewhere to get that performance at that price. The Viper tested in this article listed for $142,000. At that price point there is pretty much no excuse for not having at least a decent quality interior that is acceptably comfortable. Some quotes from the article:

"I was telling our tech guru Frank Markus that after a hundred miles behind the wheel, my feet were 30 degrees hotter than my head."

"While the big navigation screen is a welcome improvement, the rock-hard seats are less comfortable than the ZR1’s. Especially on a 300-mile road trip."

"both represent the crudest interiors on the market in cars that cost more $100K. (The Viper as-tested lists for $141,990. Caveat emptor, dudes.)"

"Interestingly, like me, Randy thought that the Viper felt quicker than the ZR1 in a straight line. Carlos chalks that up to the near complete lack of sound deadening in the cabin. The noise is brutal."


When you consider that these cars will log the majority of their miles on regular roads, and not on a race track. Is lapping Laguna Seca a couple seconds faster than a Ferrari or Audi when piloted by a professional racecar driver really any sort of consolation when your feet are hot, your back hurts from the ride, and you have a headache from the noise while driving your $140k car to the grocery store?
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:46 AM   #58
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With a base Corvette, or even a Z06 you can make the excuse that corners had to be cut somewhere to get that performance at that price. The Viper tested in this article listed for $142,000. At that price point there is pretty much no excuse for not having at least a decent quality interior that is acceptably comfortable. Some quotes from the article:

"I was telling our tech guru Frank Markus that after a hundred miles behind the wheel, my feet were 30 degrees hotter than my head."

"While the big navigation screen is a welcome improvement, the rock-hard seats are less comfortable than the ZR1’s. Especially on a 300-mile road trip."

"both represent the crudest interiors on the market in cars that cost more $100K. (The Viper as-tested lists for $141,990. Caveat emptor, dudes.)"

"Interestingly, like me, Randy thought that the Viper felt quicker than the ZR1 in a straight line. Carlos chalks that up to the near complete lack of sound deadening in the cabin. The noise is brutal."


When you consider that these cars will log the majority of their miles on regular roads, and not on a race track. Is lapping Laguna Seca a couple seconds faster than a Ferrari or Audi when piloted by a professional racecar driver really any sort of consolation when your feet are hot, your back hurts from the ride, and you have a headache from the noise while driving your $140k car to the grocery store?
Hah, I don't know anyone with that kind of money who drives a single car Even things like LF-A and F458 are usually 2nd, 3rd, or 4th cars.

Sure it'd be nice if the interiors were better, but I really have no complaints personally, I DD'd a C6 for a few weeks in Summer 09, and even in hot Dallas traffic it was no problem. Maybe some people are made of glass or something.

It's a valid point that in almost every thread on the Vette or Viper that someone or a bunch of someones come in and start going on about the interior. I've sat in an F40 and a Diablo VT, and they easily had even worse interiors, but I don't remember anyone bitching about them, even though they cost considerably more (hugely so considering inflation). A lowly same-era LS400 had a much better interior than either by a long shot. But that's not really the point of cars like these.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:37 AM   #59
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Whats the surprise? They spent all the engineering and design effort on the mechanical parts. Obviously Chevy and Dodge both made the choice to spend every last dollar on performance rather then interior design. If they had spent more on interior design and materials the car would cost even more.
Interior design doesn't cost them anything extra. They already have designers working at GM and Chrysler/Fiat. The Viper's beige interior is pretty nice looking, but in black it looks like a Subaru or a Hyundai.

Here's my FREE advice: DO NOT USE SILVER PLASTIC. This isn't 2001 and these aren't AIWA bookshelf stereos. It looks cheap and stupid in every single car.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:06 AM   #60
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Sure it'd be nice if the interiors were better, but I really have no complaints personally, I DD'd a C6 for a few weeks in Summer 09, and even in hot Dallas traffic it was no problem. Maybe some people are made of glass or something.
Every quote in my previous post is about the Viper as well as the price I quoted. So why are you talking about a base level Corvette? Why?

2nd. You opinion means nothing since you're probably used to crap cars and you aren't in the market for a car in the $100k+ price range. Chrysler's own opinion does not agree with yours and they did the proper research to know (Ralph Gilles is president and CEO of  SRT and senior V-P of Chrysler Product Design):


“Eventually, we got tired of [Chrysler] execs telling us what the car should be,” Gilles remembers, “so we staged a research clinic with supercar owners—Audi R8 *owners, Nissan GT-R owners, Porsche and *Ferrari folks. They said, ‘The Viper doesn’t handle. It’s only a straight-line wonder. It’s hot inside. It’s badly made. It doesn’t have cruise control.’ It hurt my feelings, but we vowed that the new car would retain its signature rawness and purity, yet we’d bring it into the 21st century.”

From a seperate article:

"Marchionne got it, and SRT did clinics for what had to be one of the most anticlinic cars extant, with Corvette, R8 and Lamborghini owners. Research confirmed the obvious: R8 and Lamborghini owners would not buy the Viper as it was last sold.

"We came away with some hurt feelings but some fabulous insights," Gilles says. His designers and engineers had direction for the next Viper, and while they aren't comfortable with the word "refinement," some level of refinement was what they were looking for."


While the internet crowd may not give a crap about comfort and refinement, the people actually plunking down the money to buy these cars do. Few people want to spend over $100k on a car that is miserable to drive around town in.



Quote:
I've sat in an F40 and a Diablo VT, and they easily had even worse interiors, but I don't remember anyone bitching about them, even though they cost considerably more (hugely so considering inflation). A lowly same-era LS400 had a much better interior than either by a long shot. But that's not really the point of cars like these.
Wow, awesome job. An all new 2013 Viper has a better interior than 2 cars designed over 20 years ago in the 1980's. What a fantastic achievement!

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Until ferrari, audi, or anyone else for that matter, can build a car with this performance and price, they are completely irrelevant to this discussion.

"So Gilles set about developing a business case for an all-new Viper. This time, besides being a better car, this Viper would also need to make money. "In the old days, we could do that car at a loss as a huge image play," Gilles said."


When you're selling the car at a loss while the competition is trying to make money off their cars, you're basically cheating on the price/performance ratio. According to this, the current car is not being sold at a loss, which is likely why you can't get one for well under $100k any more.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:08 PM   #61
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Pariah, first off, you're incredibly hostile for a general discussion (about two cars that has been completely derailed by dash strokers) on a tech board. My opinion doesn't matter because I am not in the market for a $100k+ car? Are you? And as far as being used to "crap" cars, yeah the E39 M5, and 335i are "crap" for real.

Anyway, there's no magical amazing quality to interiors on vehicles in the $100k+ range, unless you're talking about things like Veyron and Maybach, and I'll allow the MP4-12C and LF-A as perhaps the pinnacles of interiors for similar type cars (though again, the prices they charge are extremely high).

You missed the point completely about the old F40 and Diablo interiors. AT THE TIME they were out, nobody bitched about their frankly horrible interiors. Why? Because nobody sane would DD either, and the interior wasn't the point of the vehicle at all. At the same time, dash-strokers always love to dump on the Vette and the Viper. Lambo interiors were amazingly terrible all the way up to the VAG era, and Ferrari only recently started putting any effort at all in. Getting in an F430 is distinctly worse than a same-era Audi.

As far as the so-called 'studies' that show owners of R8 and Lambo wouldn't buy Viper. Well derp. The R8 is tremendously overpriced performance-wise, so that type of owner obviously wants a certain badge and is willing to pay a lot more for a different type of package entirely. Ditto, to a certain extent, the common Gallardo owners (there are heaps of them around here). When you can afford that image, and dump $200k+ into a car, why would you consider a much less expensive car. It's the same exact type of people, typical mid-30s males making low 6 digit annual incomes, that would never consider owning anything that costs less than $75k. It wouldn't matter to them if you made an R8 V12, rebadged it as a GM, and sold the exact same car for $30k with a lifetime supply of hookers and blow, it's an image/badge thing, and they'd happily spend an extra $200k+ to not be associated with the common folk.

The whole point of monster cars like the Vette and Viper is to be extreme performers for the price. Sure they may charge more now, but it's not the 90s anymore, things are going to cost more to do. Their target market is not Lambo buyers, R8 buyers, or even GT-R buyers, you're talking about waaaaay different types of people.

And LMFAO @ 'Viper doesn't handle'. More like 'You can't effing drive'. With a scant handful of attempts (compared to the months/dozens/hundreds of attempts by the high level competitors like LF-A, GT-R, etc), the OLD Viper ACR put down an insanely crazy lap time on the old Ring. I will say that it's probably not intuitive to be able to drive a Viper quickly for an average person, it might even be dangerous, but one really shouldn't be pushing a vehicle to its limits or anywhere near them unless you really know what you're doing.

I like you Pariah, and agree generally with most of your opinions, but I have to just say that I think most of the incessant dash-stroking, interior-bashing of the Viper and Vette just seem like sour grapes to me. It's like the incessant Bush or Obama hater who completely out of the blue will just *have* to say something about subjects that have not much to do with it at all. Is it valid to say "the interior is average at best, and perhaps even poor"? Sure. But when that largely becomes the ONLY topic of discussion, it's pretty asinine. It's not like there is difficulty selling ZR-1s, Vipers, or for that matter R8s, Gallardos, etc. It's a GOOD thing imho that these vehicles are all so different. It would suck if they were all similarly priced and performed similarly with similar features. From the subtle refinement and mediocre performance of the R8 to the extreme performance but econobox interior quality ZR-1, there's something for everyone and everyone in between.
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:21 PM   #62
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I think a lot of people don't get it. A better designed interior doesn't cost anything. Do you expect a car to be ugly because it's cheap? No, because the quality of design has nothing to do with the cost of the car. Going from cheap plastic to thicker textured soft plastic costs dollars per car probably.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:45 PM   #63
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I think a lot of people don't get it. A better designed interior doesn't cost anything. Do you expect a car to be ugly because it's cheap? No, because the quality of design has nothing to do with the cost of the car. Going from cheap plastic to thicker textured soft plastic costs dollars per car probably.
I'm really struggling to tell if you are serious with this.

The raw materials cost alone is likely more than you are suggesting, a quick look says several dollars per kilo or lb depending on the material. And that is literally raw material, as in a barrel (or maybe truckload) of pellets.

Design costs money. Energy costs money. Labor costs money. Weight demands more power which costs money. To suggest that a better interior would not cost anything more (or minimally more) is naive at best.

I freely admit that my car's interior is crap. But would you care to guess how many times I have noticed that while I have the go pedal down?

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Old 12-22-2012, 10:18 PM   #64
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I'm really struggling to tell if you are serious with this.

The raw materials cost alone is likely more than you are suggesting, a quick look says several dollars per kilo or lb depending on the material. And that is literally raw material, as in a barrel (or maybe truckload) of pellets.

Design costs money. Energy costs money. Labor costs money. Weight demands more power which costs money. To suggest that a better interior would not cost anything more (or minimally more) is naive at best.

I freely admit that my car's interior is crap. But would you care to guess how many times I have noticed that while I have the go pedal down?

Viper GTS
Chrysler/Fiat has dozens of designers on their staff. All they have to do is tell them to do a good job or get fired. Ergonomics is not hard, and the amount of plastic/rubber we're talking about is dirt cheap. The reason your Viper has a crappy interior is because in the 90s Chrysler had its head up its ass. All their vehicles were terrible inside, for no reason other than the designers were incompetent. And they didn't care because the company was run by bean counters that didn't understand that consumers care about things like styling, interior quality, and horsepower! But they know better now.

Why is it that the Mustang can have a nice modern interior with chunky rubbery materials, but the C6 still looks like something from the 90s?

BTW the first time I test drove a C4, I couldn't focus on driving because I was trying to adjust the seat to get the shifter in the right position... which I couldn't. GM spent millions of dollars designing a supercar, but put the shifter too far rearward, just because they were too stupid to put a little effort into ergonomics. I bought a car with 2/3 the power because it fit much better
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