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Old 12-11-2012, 06:44 PM   #51
cwjerome
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monovillage View Post
Bull fucking shit. Damn teachers earn far more than they deserve and get more training then they need for grades K-8. Fuck the damn freeloading teachers. Only 7% of Detroit's 8th graders are proficient or higher in reading. Fail teachers shouldn't get paid more for failing.
It's too bad K-12 teachers are quasi-government workers, because when there are crap teachers or crap schools all teachers everywhere get blamed. That generalization doesn't happen so much in the private sector.

And as bad as some of those teachers and schools probably are, and as dumb as they are regarding teacher unions and things like tenure, I'm guessing they have an extremely rough demographic to work with.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:40 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by cwjerome View Post
It's too bad K-12 teachers are quasi-government workers, because when there are crap teachers or crap schools all teachers everywhere get blamed. That generalization doesn't happen so much in the private sector.

And as bad as some of those teachers and schools probably are, and as dumb as they are regarding teacher unions and things like tenure, I'm guessing they have an extremely rough demographic to work with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by monovillage View Post
Bull fucking shit. Damn teachers earn far more than they deserve and get more training then they need for grades K-8. Fuck the damn freeloading teachers. Only 7% of Detroit's 8th graders are proficient or higher in reading. Fail teachers shouldn't get paid more for failing.
Yay! Information provided in a biased manner with no numbers for comparison!

Quote:
Last updated 07 December 2011 (RH)
I find it very odd that these numbers are from 2011 yet the news has absolutely exploded only in the last 10 hours. And those cites all have a certain leaning to them. (Dailypaul, exposethemedia, americanconservativenews, secretsofthefed) How convenient. Also convenient is the omission of 'Basic' attainment percents. Basic is not failing. If they were to retain only a basic rating through to adulthood that would be equivalent to 'can perform everyday math/literacy activities'

Now 7% seems pretty damn bad. And it is - don't get me wrong. DPS sucks and no one in their right mind would work there or have their kids attend there. Which is the problem. No one who cares wants their kids to go there so only those who don't care are left. How well do you think they are going to do?

Now for some comparison:
Philly 15%
Milwaukee: 10%
LA:15%
Fresno:11%
DCPS:13%
Cleveland:11%
Dallas:13%

We can see that 7% is not that far off from similar inner city areas. Yes, DPS is at the bottom of the pile but Detroit is also a city that has experienced far more economic devastation than any other major metropolitan area.

Maybe its more of an 'inner city, depressed socio-economic status' thing than just a 'teacher' thing.
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Last edited by Exterous; 12-11-2012 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:15 PM   #53
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Also - firefighters and police were exempt from this legislation. I guess RTW is not ok if your job is dangerous or you need a special bond:

Quote:
police and firefighters would be excluded because of the dangerousness of their jobs and the need for a "special bond" among them.
http://www.freep.com/article/2012120...blican-leaders
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:15 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Exterous View Post
:Yay! Information provided in a biased manner with no numbers for comparison!



I find it very odd that these numbers are from 2011 yet the news has absolutely exploded only in the last 10 hours. And those cites all have a certain leaning to them. (Dailypaul, exposethemedia, americanconservativenews, secretsofthefed) How convenient. Also convenient is the omission of 'Basic' attainment percents. Basic is not failing. If they were to retain only a basic rating through to adulthood that would be equivalent to 'can perform everyday math/literacy activities'

Now 7% seems pretty damn bad. And it is - don't get me wrong. DPS sucks and no one in their right mind would work there or have their kids attend there. Which is the problem. No one who cares wants their kids to go there so only those who don't care are left. How well do you think they are going to do?

Now for some comparison:
Philly 15%
Milwaukee: 10%
LA:15%
Fresno:11%
DCPS:13%
Cleveland:11%
Dallas:13%

We can see that 7% is not that far off from similar inner city areas. Yes, DPS is at the bottom of the pile but Detroit is also a city that has experienced far more economic devastation than any other major metropolitan area.

Maybe its more of an 'inner city, depressed socio-economic status' thing than just a 'teacher' thing.
You didn't have any trouble finding the information, were you home schooled or privately schooled by non-union teachers?
If you think those numbers validate the money we spend on public education and the union teachers then you should be ashamed. Whooppee! 11% of 8th graders can actually read! Union teachers rock!

Did you enjoy seeing the union violence in Michigan? Must make the teachers proud to see tents torn down and people beaten. Nothing like calls for blood, hatred and violence from elected Democrats is there?
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:22 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Atomic Playboy View Post
Your experience is clearly directly applicable to every teacher in Michigan because every single job in the world is identical in every regard.
Well apparently he doesn't work on a farm or else he'd know the difference between apples and oranges...
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:33 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by monovillage View Post
You didn't have any trouble finding the information
Actually I did have a bit of a hard time finding the information. No news site had it (shocking) so I had to go to NCES directly.

Quote:
If you think those numbers validate the money we spend on public education and the union teachers then you should be ashamed. Whooppee! 11% of 8th graders can actually read! Union teachers rock!
Can you link proof that only 11% can read? Here - I will save you the trouble. You won't be able to find any factual data to back up your retarded statement. Saying 11% can read is an idiotic skewing of the truth as no schools surveyed by the NCES had only 11% of 8th graders who could read. Not. A. Single. One. Pro Tip: The Basic attainment level includes literacy.

I should also point out that I never said it validated the money we spend on public education so I can't fathom why would would bring that up? Throwing more money at education is clearly not the answer as it has a very very poor track record

Quote:
Did you enjoy seeing the union violence in Michigan?
Of course not. It saddens me that such a thing happened and, obviously does not help their cause
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:21 AM   #57
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At least it was better than the 4% of Detroit kids that tested proficient at math. 4%! Great job union teacher parasites, you all deserve a raise!
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:19 AM   #58
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this is what your Dept.Of Education has brought you. Think about this when your income is confiscated under the guise of TAX.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:25 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Exterous View Post
Can you link proof that only 11% can read?
Quote:
Originally Posted by monovillage View Post
At least it was better than the 4% of Detroit kids that tested proficient at math. 4%! Great job union teacher parasites, you all deserve a raise!
So - is that a 'no' that you cannot find proof backing up your claim? And what makes you think they are getting raises?
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:15 AM   #60
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So - is that a 'no' that you cannot find proof backing up your claim? And what makes you think they are getting raises?
They don't deserve raises and is that a "no" that you support the union violence in Michigan on Tuesday?
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:42 AM   #61
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They don't deserve raises and is that a "no" that you support the union violence in Michigan on Tuesday?
If they aren't getting raises and they don't deserve ones why did you say 'You deserve a raise?'

You never asked me before if I supported the violence, only if I enjoyed it. I do not support the violence used in the protest. You still have not responded about your original 11% claim
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:07 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Exterous View Post
If they aren't getting raises and they don't deserve ones why did you say 'You deserve a raise?'

You never asked me before if I supported the violence, only if I enjoyed it. I do not support the violence used in the protest. You still have not responded about your original 11% claim
Quote:
Now for some comparison:
Philly 15%
Milwaukee: 10%
LA:15%
Fresno:11%
DCPS:13%
Cleveland:11%
Dallas:13%
You posted it, Fresno at 11% and Cleveland at 11% with Milwaukee at 10%
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:24 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by monovillage View Post
You posted it, Fresno at 11% and Cleveland at 11% with Milwaukee at 10%
*sigh* I see you can't seem to comprehend what is going on here so let me help you out. You said:

Quote:
11% of 8th graders can actually read!
This is not true. You are trying to link 11% being proficient as only 11% as being able to read. This is a blatant disregard for the definitions listed on the NCES website for what constitutes proficient and basic levels.

Quote:
The Basic attainment level includes literacy.
Perhaps I confused you by using the big word 'literacy'. I will try to make this easier: Basic level can read too. Therefore you have to add the Basic level of attainment to the proficient to get closer to the correct percent. This gives you significantly more than 11% in every single school in this survey. Furthermore - the NCES does not list the literacy ability of those below Basic so it is possible for none\some\all of those to be literate as well

So - again - do you have any proof that only 11% can read? Or can you just not comprehend this study?
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Last edited by Exterous; 12-12-2012 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:33 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Exterous View Post
*sigh* I see you can't seem to comprehend what is going on here so let me help you out. You said:



This is not true. You are trying to link 11% being proficient as only 11% as being able to read. This is a blatant disregard for the definitions listed on the NCES website for what constitutes proficient and basic levels.



Perhaps I confused you by using the big word 'literacy'. I will try to make this easier: Basic level can read too. Therefore you have to add the Basic level of attainment to the proficient to get closer to the correct percent. This gives you significantly more than 11% in every single school in this survey. Furthermore - the NCES does not list the literacy ability of those below Basic so it is possible for none\some\all of those to be literate as well

So - again - do you have any proof that only 11% can read? Or can you just not comprehend this study?
Ohh horrors! My mistake. It's Detroit Michigan kids that have a 7% proficiency or better reading ability. Some of the others can read, slowly, if the words aren't com......pli..cated.
Teachers should be proud of failing.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:03 PM   #65
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Because RTW is all about ending unions and lowering workers wages and benefits back to reality so businesses can compete in the global economy and not die.

fixed that for ya
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You're being difficult. You have not provided us with the information we need to troubleshoot the problem. You have not given us errors, you're vague about where the problem is, you are not answering the questions we ask. In short, you DON'T KNOW HOW TO THINK. Give back that piece of paper you think makes your intelligent, apologize, destroy your computer and go live in the woods kid.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:07 PM   #66
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Sure is a lot of hatred for teachers on this forum. Must be a lot of poor students here.
It's not the teachers. It's the unions. Until people realize that they turned from a savior to the worker to a cancer on the economy, nobody will understand the difference.

My step-mom is a teacher, and I'll still sit here and say 'fuck unions'.
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
You're being difficult. You have not provided us with the information we need to troubleshoot the problem. You have not given us errors, you're vague about where the problem is, you are not answering the questions we ask. In short, you DON'T KNOW HOW TO THINK. Give back that piece of paper you think makes your intelligent, apologize, destroy your computer and go live in the woods kid.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:08 PM   #67
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While I absolutely agree that teachers, on the whole, are undermotivated and underpaid, claiming they need similar pay to doctors/dentists is a bit silly. It does not take nearly the same amount of education, not to mention student loan debt, to become a teacher than it does to become a doctor. Should both professions be respected? Absolutely. Should they be compensated the same? I think not.
Becoming a teacher is easy.

Becoming a doctor is not.

This is why the pay is different.

Pretty simple.
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
You're being difficult. You have not provided us with the information we need to troubleshoot the problem. You have not given us errors, you're vague about where the problem is, you are not answering the questions we ask. In short, you DON'T KNOW HOW TO THINK. Give back that piece of paper you think makes your intelligent, apologize, destroy your computer and go live in the woods kid.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:18 PM   #68
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Don't forget malpractice insurance, which in high cost states is usually over $100k per year. That causes your rates to go up quickly
Can you imagine if teachers had to get malpractice insurance for failing to teach kids?
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
You're being difficult. You have not provided us with the information we need to troubleshoot the problem. You have not given us errors, you're vague about where the problem is, you are not answering the questions we ask. In short, you DON'T KNOW HOW TO THINK. Give back that piece of paper you think makes your intelligent, apologize, destroy your computer and go live in the woods kid.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:33 PM   #69
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Becoming a teacher is easy.

Becoming a doctor is not.

This is why the pay is different.

Pretty simple.
That about sums up my point.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:37 PM   #70
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liberal command and controllers know what's good for everybody including your kids.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:59 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Exterous View Post
*sigh* I see you can't seem to comprehend what is going on here so let me help you out. You said:



This is not true. You are trying to link 11% being proficient as only 11% as being able to read. This is a blatant disregard for the definitions listed on the NCES website for what constitutes proficient and basic levels.



Perhaps I confused you by using the big word 'literacy'. I will try to make this easier: Basic level can read too. Therefore you have to add the Basic level of attainment to the proficient to get closer to the correct percent. This gives you significantly more than 11% in every single school in this survey. Furthermore - the NCES does not list the literacy ability of those below Basic so it is possible for none\some\all of those to be literate as well

So - again - do you have any proof that only 11% can read? Or can you just not comprehend this study?
So forgetting about who can read or not for the moment, what is your point exactly? I may have missed it before. So is it that according to a National Center for Education Statistics assessment 11% or 10% or 13% or some small number of students are passing? I may have gotten this wrong, so help me out, I am coming to the party late, but wouldn't that mean the majority of the students 89%, 90% or 87% are not passing a test provided by NCES? If the teachers are doing that poorly, find the problem and fix it.

The problem with my last statement "find the problem and fix it" is that that is a corporate, private sector approach. We in the private sector have no time for hand-holding and what-nots. We have to keep innovating and growing, or we'll be crushed, destroyed and unemployed.

The teacher's unions seem at odds with this, since their is no incentive for teachers to do well if they can't be fired. And the Dept. of Ed. can hardly be expected to handle issues on a school-by-school basis. That's why teacher's unions and the Dept. of Ed. must go. Let the local communities pay their tax dollars directly to their own schools. Let them have control over the hiring and firing of superintendents, principals and teachers in their own communities, since it is the parents that they are working for. The money should not go all the way up to the federal government, only to trickle back down once everyone along the way has taken their big slice of the pie.

This is not a new idea. It just needs support. As a parent, I would love to see my tax dollars used locally, and have the ability to influence who is hired and fired to teach my child.

Need to go back to work... good thread!
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:32 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by monovillage View Post
Ohh horrors! My mistake. It's Detroit Michigan kids that have a 7% proficiency or better reading ability. Some of the others can read, slowly, if the words aren't com......pli..cated.
And it only took you ~5 times with simplified examples\words to get it right! Sadly I can tell you didn't bother to delve into the data more. The Basic levels of reading competency in Detroit are much more in line with the national average (Despite drastically lower than average attendance levels) so any condescending words you have for DPS in regards to the % of Basic attainment you have for a good part of the country - including non-unionized schools

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Originally Posted by GamingDaemon View Post
So forgetting about who can read or not for the moment, what is your point exactly? I may have missed it before. So is it that according to a National Center for Education Statistics assessment 11% or 10% or 13% or some small number of students are passing? I may have gotten this wrong, so help me out, I am coming to the party late, but wouldn't that mean the majority of the students 89%, 90% or 87% are not passing a test provided by NCES? If the teachers are doing that poorly, find the problem and fix it.
Yes - you are missing something. Something important and already pointed out. Proficient isn't the first 'passing' level. Basic is.

I should also note that DPS has a serious issue with attendance. It would consistently fall below 75% costing the district millions in state aid. The first weeks of new semesters were in the 50% attendance range. Are the teachers to be held accountable for budget problems when parents don't make their kids show up? How do you grade teacher effectiveness if the students aren't there?

(National attendance average is around 96%

Quote:
The teacher's unions seem at odds with this, since their is no incentive for teachers to do well if they can't be fired.
*Sigh* In Michigan you can be fired for poor teacher performance. Does no one do research anymore before forming opinions?

Quote:
teachers or administrative who receive three annual “ineffective” ratings must be dismissed under the law.
http://www.miparentsforschools.org/node/144

Quote:
Let the local communities pay their tax dollars directly to their own schools. Let them have control over the hiring and firing of superintendents, principals and teachers in their own communities, since it is the parents that they are working for.
Most school boards (voted officials) have considerable influence over hiring and policy already. Ideally the three groups should work in concert for the people they are supposed to work for - the kids. Sadly that does not always happen. If one side - any side - becomes out balanced bad things can happen. There are countless examples of bad things happening when the administration, teachers or parents get too much power. Taylor schools is rebounding from bad experiences with the parents having too much power

Quote:
The money should not go all the way up to the federal government, only to trickle back down once everyone along the way has taken their big slice of the pie.
How do you intent to support school districts like DPS which would be financially destitute if it had to rely on only their own tax base? I am not sure the State of Michigan could handle all the financially destitute districts on its own

Quote:
good thread!
A lot of ignorance in terms of how Michigan's education system works in this thread
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:02 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Exterous View Post
*sigh* I see you can't seem to comprehend what is going on here so let me help you out. You said:



This is not true. You are trying to link 11% being proficient as only 11% as being able to read. This is a blatant disregard for the definitions listed on the NCES website for what constitutes proficient and basic levels.



Perhaps I confused you by using the big word 'literacy'. I will try to make this easier: Basic level can read too. Therefore you have to add the Basic level of attainment to the proficient to get closer to the correct percent. This gives you significantly more than 11% in every single school in this survey. Furthermore - the NCES does not list the literacy ability of those below Basic so it is possible for none\some\all of those to be literate as well

So - again - do you have any proof that only 11% can read? Or can you just not comprehend this study?
I understand what you are attempting to debate with Mono but still, 11% provenience in reading for their grade level is a complete and utter failure. I would honestly expect numbers like that to come from a study of "how smart are kids if they don't go to school at all and play Xbox all day". I do understand the numbers are probably skewed a bit by kids that register but don't go to school, kids that plain don't give a fuck, etc.... However, when the normal 8th grade class has a reading proficiency level of what I would expect from the kids wearing red helmets and riding the short bus to school in "special" classes.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:04 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by TechBoyJK View Post
Becoming a teacher is easy.

Becoming a doctor is not.

This is why the pay is different.

Pretty simple.
The sad part is that most people (and you seem to be in this category) see absolutely no problem with that.....
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:22 PM   #75
monovillage
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Originally Posted by Darwin333 View Post
I understand what you are attempting to debate with Mono but still, 11% provenience in reading for their grade level is a complete and utter failure. I would honestly expect numbers like that to come from a study of "how smart are kids if they don't go to school at all and play Xbox all day". I do understand the numbers are probably skewed a bit by kids that register but don't go to school, kids that plain don't give a fuck, etc.... However, when the normal 8th grade class has a reading proficiency level of what I would expect from the kids wearing red helmets and riding the short bus to school in "special" classes.
He gets money for the lousy job that teachers are committing upon children in Michigan, it's as plain and simple as that. They try to shift blame to parents or the administration or Republicans, but union teachers are to blame for the lousy education those children get and they laugh at those poor kids all the way to the bank.
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