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Old 12-08-2012, 12:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by smakme7757 View Post
That's a fair point.

In the video everyone was mentioning that they "had" or where "used too" which is just pointing out that Microsoft has changed the Windows paradigm, so things will be harder to find because it isn't the same operating system that people were/are using.

Linux to Windows - Windows to Linux is a similar shift. Things are hard to find because it's not the same system you are used too. The big question is: If you know where to find what you need to find is Windows 8 still difficult to use?

Because after a few days of finding those things you need to find you will know where they are.

I myself find certain aspects of the UI unintuative, but as i learn it it becomes second nature, just like with Windows 7.
But it is the same os. Its called Windows 8.

My problem, and most of the world's problem, , is, they've made changes that are not necessary and don't add anything useful.

I would like just one time for one of the proponents of W8 address this point..

There's no reason to make the new desktop ui have features that are hidden, with no option to unhide them.

Agree or disagree ?
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:29 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by hectorsm View Post
Because even common function are very difficult to find.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cor-lvXsgx0

Except for an add-on apps like Start8 and command line stuff (which most common users don't know about) users must deal with "metro" to get apps and configure the system. From their point of view is not a choice and more like a hindrance.
I normally get my applications like I did on Win7 ie on the net via browser via desktop,you can avoid Metro for the most part,ie make shortcuts on desktop or taskbar like most users do on Win7, so you can do the same with Win8 or customize Metro ,basically its up to you which way you go.
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:33 PM   #53
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But it is the same os. Its called Windows 8.

My problem, and most of the world's problem, , is, they've made changes that are not necessary and don't add anything useful.

I would like just one time for one of the proponents of W8 address this point..

There's no reason to make the new desktop ui have features that are hidden, with no option to unhide them.

Agree or disagree ?
I hear what you are saying and if Microsoft bring back the Start Menu ie similar to Win7 this will please a lot of users,personally I don't mind it now I got use to it,however they could of left an option to use it or not then its a preference decision by the user.
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:37 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Tom View Post
But it is the same os. Its called Windows 8.

My problem, and most of the world's problem, , is, they've made changes that are not necessary and don't add anything useful.

I would like just one time for one of the proponents of W8 address this point..

There's no reason to make the new desktop ui have features that are hidden, with no option to unhide them.

Agree or disagree ?
I agree, one of the reasons i hated it in the beginning was that i had to use Youtube to find out how i shut it down. I also don't like Windows 8 on my Laptop, i think my 14" screen is too small for it, however i quite enjoy using it on my Desktop machine.

Additionally I'll admit i don't use Metro as much as Microsoft would like, at the moment it's for less frequently used applications, but still customized for my personal use.

However i do enjoy the "snappyness" the OS provides which was one of the major selling points for me in addition to the new security features. Also had the upgrade lisence cost me over $150 i wouldn't of purchased a copy, but MS know this and priced it accordingly for the first few months.

Windows 8 with Windows 7 UI would have been perfect, but I'm not in any way less productive with Windows 8 now that I've had it installed for a few weeks. Am i more productive? Well i doubt it, i suppose i could be just as productive on Windows XP provided my applications were supported.

But yes, there are certain aspects of the UI that i find very unintuitive .
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:29 PM   #55
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But yes, there are certain aspects of the UI that i find very unintuitive .

To be fair you could say same thing about any Windows OS including Win7,in the end you just get use to it since no OS is perfect,in the end once you know the OS regardless of OS in question it becomes more intuitive,plus everybody has different standards, learning curve as well,apples and oranges as they say.
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:04 PM   #56
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To be fair you could say same thing about any Windows OS including Win7,in the end you just get use to it since no OS is perfect,in the end once you know the OS regardless of OS in question it becomes more intuitive,plus everybody has different standards, learning curve as well,apples and oranges as they say.
Yes of course. No one can argue with that, but as i mentioned above it's a paradigm change and because of that we are having to learn a new system so compared to the old one it will always start out "Unintuitive".

With that being said it only took me a few days to get the hang of Windows 8 and like i mentioned above I'm enjoying it on my desktop. It's only really driver incompatibilities that are stopping me installing it on my Dell E6530 which i just received about 15 minutes ago (That actually has a Windows 8 Start button on it - Windows 8 flag at least ) and the screen on my HP laptop is only 14" which i find too small for windows 8 - I don't know why, maybe it's just me
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:15 PM   #57
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Yes of course. No one can argue with that, but as i mentioned above it's a paradigm change and because of that we are having to learn a new system so compared to the old one it will always start out "Unintuitive".
So what was the old paradigm that Windows 7, and its predecessors, was based on and what is the new one that Windows 8 manifests?

OK, one could describe the old one as 'the computer is a physical desk', but what on earth is the new one? Windows 8's tendency to hide similar things in different places, and have things hiddden till you hover the mouse pointer in exactly the right place, just doesn't seem, to me, to have any consistent 'paradigm' behind it.

And its not just a case of 'everything is non-intuitive when its new', because there's a long history of gradual evolution behind the way things were, and decisions along the way were made for a reason, because things made sense in terms of things people were already used to, and not just within the world of computer interfaces.

I remember, for example, first enountering mouse-controlled menus, and they were easy to grasp because we'd already been using on-screen-menus with keyboards for ages. And menus with keyboards made intuitive sense because they in turn resembled the act of pointing to physical menus.

Insofar as there is a consistent 'paradigm' behind 8 - and if you can sum up what it is it would be useful, because I'm not sure - its clearly one oriented towards touch-screens, and hence is less inutiive for keyboard-and-mouse.
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Old 12-08-2012, 05:10 PM   #58
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So what was the old paradigm that Windows 7, and its predecessors, was based on and what is the new one that Windows 8 manifests?

OK, one could describe the old one as 'the computer is a physical desk', but what on earth is the new one? Windows 8's tendency to hide similar things in different places, and have things hiddden till you hover the mouse pointer in exactly the right place, just doesn't seem, to me, to have any consistent 'paradigm' behind it.

And its not just a case of 'everything is non-intuitive when its new', because there's a long history of gradual evolution behind the way things were, and decisions along the way were made for a reason, because things made sense in terms of things people were already used to, and not just within the world of computer interfaces.

I remember, for example, first enountering mouse-controlled menus, and they were easy to grasp because we'd already been using on-screen-menus with keyboards for ages. And menus with keyboards made intuitive sense because they in turn resembled the act of pointing to physical menus.

Insofar as there is a consistent 'paradigm' behind 8 - and if you can sum up what it is it would be useful, because I'm not sure - its clearly one oriented towards touch-screens, and hence is less inutiive for keyboard-and-mouse.
Start button in Windows 7 and below

No start button in Windows 8. Menu system incorporates the 4 corners of your screen including more focus on searching for what you want rather than clicking.

Those are what i consider to be the biggest changes concerning the user. Ubuntu went in this direction with unity which is comparable.
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Old 12-08-2012, 05:17 PM   #59
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Start button in Windows 7 and below

No start button in Windows 8. Menu system incorporates the 4 corners of your screen including more focus on searching for what you want rather than clicking.

Those are what i consider to be the biggest changes concerning the user. Ubuntu went in this direction with unity which is comparable.

Well I realise the start menu is gone and you now have hovering in corners. Rather than the speficis of how the GUI now works, what I was asking really was what the underlying paradigm was, given that the previous poster spoke of a 'paragdigm change'. Unless talk of 'paradigm change' was just a bit of marketing cliche that translates to 'changed GUI' ?

Wasn't aware Ubuntu had changed similarly - haven't updated Ubuntu for ages.
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Old 12-08-2012, 05:24 PM   #60
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Well I realise the start menu is gone and you now have hovering in corners. Rather than the speficis of how the GUI now works, what I was asking really was what the underlying paradigm was, given that the previous poster spoke of a 'paragdigm change'. Unless talk of 'paradigm change' was just a bit of marketing cliche that translates to 'changed GUI' ?

Wasn't aware Ubuntu had changed similarly - haven't updated Ubuntu for ages.
I would call it a paradigm change, maybe not a complete one in the essence of the word, but it's still a move in another direction. The way you use Windows isn't the same as you used it before.

The principles that you could apply in Windows 7 don't necessarily apply in Windows 8.

As i mentioned above Ubuntu did the same thing. They did away with the traditional menu system in favour of a more search orientated approach. Microsoft are also heading in the same direction.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:04 PM   #61
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Another [individual] with unjustified hate of windows 8 ... go ahead and return it.

I'm just going to stop you right here. We're not going to put up with name calling in this forum
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:24 PM   #62
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So what was the old paradigm that Windows 7, and its predecessors, was based on and what is the new one that Windows 8 manifests?
I suppose it's best to say that Windows 8 doesn't have a paradigm. It's a bit like the introduction of the first typewriter; there isn't an existing paradigm, just a product that is intended to make some task easier. You aren't supposed to treat Windows 8 as an extension of any previous UI concept, rather you're supposed to learn how Windows 8 does things for the sake of using Windows 8.
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:52 PM   #63
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Hey guys, I had to register on this forum after reading this thread. I just returned 2 laptops to Best Buy because of Windows 8.

I really gave it a go. I installed startisback to at least have a familar Win7 UI while learning the metro side of the system.

My main problem..and I had the same experience with Vista, was getting the programs I use to work properly in Win8 that work perfectly in Win7. Mainly WMP, and my VLC player.

MP4s are becoming the popular medium for movie files, and that is what I need the most from the new laptop as I have it hooked up to my 60" Plasma via HDMI.

Tried every codec and tweak. Multiple versions of both players, and just couldn't get the glitchyness..jumpy frames...out of certain MP4, or H264 files.

I tested out my GF's HP with only 4GB/500GB, and it played every file perfectly. Even my TV has a player that will play these files without skittering.

All I did was load some codecs to add to the existing WMP that came with her laptop.

I just ordered an ASUS online with Win7 because all the stores have are Win8 machines.

The funny thing about all this is that Microsoft will only grant a legal downgrade license to people that haveWin8 Pro, or someone who upgrades 8 to PRO, then down to 7.

No thanks, I'll hang on to 7 untill they no longer support it. I believe it's that good.....and WiN8 is that much of a train wreck.

BTW...salesperson laughed and said they have more returns because of Win8 than they can remember than any other item that they have sold.
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:55 PM   #64
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I played around with some notebooks that had windows 8 and I didn't like scrolling the tab menu and so for the ones where they were not touch screen. I don't mind it at all on my desktop because the screen is bigger. Even the touch screen laptops I didn't really like touching the screen each time to select something. Then you have to clean it and its odd to use.

But on my desktop I like 8 a lot.
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:54 AM   #65
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I installed startisback
This is the common thread amongst all the people I see talking down on Win8. Almost all of them install some sort of desktop launcher, instead of just learning to use the new UI.

Look, if you want to live in the past, be our guest; but don't come in here constantly crapping on an OS you've barely attempted to use.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:08 AM   #66
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This is the common thread amongst all the people I see talking down on Win8. Almost all of them install some sort of desktop launcher, instead of just learning to use the new UI.

Look, if you want to live in the past, be our guest; but don't come in here constantly crapping on an OS you've barely attempted to use.
Windows users want a windows machine. Windows 8 is not like windows machines that people are accustomed to. People don't like the new OS.

Now who is the problem, Microsoft or millions of customers?
That the defenders of Windows 8 are so ready to crap on people who are completely unsatisfied with a product is absurd to me, but hey... I'm just a guy who uses products... not one who worships a brand.

Microsoft dropped the ball for millions of people with Win 8. According to this forum the problem is with millions of people who have been using windows for YEARS and YEARS for not worshiping the Microsoft brand and taking it however the execs at Microsoft want to give it.

I have never seen such fanatical defending of a product outside of brand loyalist defenders.
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:02 AM   #67
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This is the common thread amongst all the people I see talking down on Win8. Almost all of them install some sort of desktop launcher, instead of just learning to use the new UI.

Look, if you want to live in the past, be our guest; but don't come in here constantly crapping on an OS you've barely attempted to use.
LOL. Talk about willful ignorance. You read the three words you quoted and just switched your brain off, then went into the usual ignorant rant mode. Meanwhile, the poster said he wanted to learn the new UI, while outlining the problems he had with Win8 that were the real dealbreaker. (Crappy media playback).

This just further proves the Pro8 crowd is just being a bunch of hangers-on sucking up to MS and not actually listening to the problems. It was the same thing with ME and Vista suck-ups, even after Microsoft themselves admitted they were duds.

Meanwhile, I've already -without lifting a finger myself or making a comment about it- had 4 people pay me to (in their words) "Get this garbage off my laptop!" and install Windows 7 to restore their sanity. Similar pattern as Vista. It'll definitely ramp up after the Holidays and people get their new machines as gifts and then discover they don't like the new UI.

But of course, as with Vista before it, the shills will conclude that tons of random people deciding on their own they don't like something is all of their fault, and not MS.

Meanwhile, let's remember back to how many systems I had hair-ripping out clients pay me to roll Windows 7 back to Vista.... ummmm.... that would be NONE.

There are good OS's and bad OS's, and so-so OS's. For a lot of people, 8 is not one of the good ones. DEAL.
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:43 AM   #68
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This just further proves the Pro8 crowd is just being a bunch of hangers-on sucking up to MS and not actually listening to the problems. It was the same thing with ME and Vista suck-ups, even after Microsoft themselves admitted they were duds.
Or maybe , just maybe those people happy with Win8 are not having the same issues that your referenced poster is having? Think that might be within the realm of possibility? I like to think I am somewhat OS agnostic. I have machines running various flavors of Windows, as well as OS X, Linux, and a BSD variant. I have been running Win8 on my main desktop/gaming machine and I have had only one issue with it so far and that is related to hibernation mode. Does that make me a "shill" for MS when people ask me my opinion on the new OS? I don't think so but it seems I must be according to your various rants to the contrary. Wonder when I can start expecting a check from MS ....
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:06 PM   #69
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Or maybe , just maybe those people happy with Win8 are not having the same issues that your referenced poster is having?
So what? There are people that were happy with ME. Didn't mean it wasn't a dud, just some people didn't mind using the dud. Ditto with Vista when it first came out.

Heck, I've met plenty of people happily using a computer loaded down to the gills with viruses, spyware, trojans, hijacks and every kind of system bloat you can imagine. Yet all the crap didn't hamper their ability to check their email and read a string of garbage on FaceBook, they didn't know any better, so they were happy. Does that mean they weren't using a f'ed up system that someone who does know better would pull their hair out trying to use?

The pro Win8 crowd often acts like a bunch of sheep when people criticize the OS, and as proven by that quoted post, completely dismiss legitimate problems and dislikes using the same old shill nonsense "Oh, you just don't want to learn blah de blah..."
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:17 PM   #70
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There are good OS's and bad OS's, and so-so OS's. For a lot of people, 8 is not one of the good ones. DEAL.
There is No general Good and bad, in each OS there is Good points and Bad points.

A real functional person evaluates functinaly the Good and the bad and uses whatever suits is purposes.

At times I still use for work Win98Se running on an old Mini Dell P-4. I have few applications that where developed in the Win 98Se era using propriety development tools and they are Not compatible with the Video of later OS'.

These apps are for evaluting certain cognitive issue with patients experiencing PTSD. It probably can be reprogramed to work with Win 7, but giving the expense, the frequency of their usage, and the fact that running them on Win 7 will not provide any advantage, it does not merit a reprogramming effort.

The above does not translate into Win 98Se is better than Win 7, or that a an old Mini Dell P-4 is better than Ivy Bridge. It simply a matter of functional ease to keep using the old Dell with Win 98se for this purpose.


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Old 12-16-2012, 12:19 PM   #71
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The pro Win8 crowd often acts like a bunch of sheep when people criticize the OS, and as proven by that quoted post, completely dismiss legitimate problems and dislikes using the same old shill nonsense "Oh, you just don't want to learn blah de blah..."
I won't completely disagree about that, but that is the nature of technology and people using having opinions in general. The same can be said about the users of any major product or operating system I would say. On the other side, you have the detractors of the same products being just a dismissive of the opinions of those on the other side. It's too bad we can't just discuss the pluses and negatives of a new product, and there are plenty of both when it comes to Win8.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:30 PM   #72
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The above does not translate into Win 98Se is better than Win 7, or that a an old Mini Dell P-4 is better than Ivy Bridge. It simply a matter of functional ease to keep using the old Dell with Win 98se for this purpose.
All fine and good, but I go by my experiences. (Others can judge by their own, that's fine.)

ME: That was the first time I saw people that were PC/OS novices realize that an OS was a flaming POS and express it often. Had people wanting me to install Win 98 or Win2000 in place of it.

XP: never personally had a *single* person want to go back to a previous OS version, let alone pay to do it.

Vista: Had a ton of people pay me to replace with XP on their systems. I lost count of how many. I've read where plenty of others reported a similar experience. That's not exactly a rip-roaring success for an OS in my book.

Windows 7: Not a single person ever wanted me to put Vista back on their hardware in place of 7- the idea is even a bit absurd.

Windows 8: already 4 people have paid me to return to Windows 7. I'm already sensing a pattern similar to Vista when it first came out. You can blame the individual people all you want, but most people won't be forced to like something they don't like.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:39 PM   #73
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I won't completely disagree about that, but that is the nature of technology and people using having opinions in general. The same can be said about the users of any major product or operating system I would say. On the other side, you have the detractors of the same products being just a dismissive of the opinions of those on the other side. It's too bad we can't just discuss the pluses and negatives of a new product, and there are plenty of both when it comes to Win8.
I agree there are plusses with Win8, I've praised them myself. (IE: better boot times, useful additions like ribbon menus, wider compatibility, etc.

I think one of the things that frustrates people most about Windows 8 is that it could be great if Microsoft weren't so busy pushing an obvious agenda. Give people the choice of having a desktop-only vs. a tablet-style interface without add-ons and needless hoop-jumping, is most people's complaint. For some, the non-Aero look is just plain needlessly fugly as well, so a choice there would have also been a better option. Add back in the choice, and at the low price point, even if the choices made the OS almost exactly like Windows 7 in the ways Win7 is great, with just the good changes of Win8, Microsoft would likely please just about everybody. All the wanna-be hipsters could have their candyland Metro bullshit, and people that need to do work without fighting with bad UI design could have their choice as well. Win-win.

Oh, but that doesn't fit into Microsoft's hoop dream of being both a tablet OS taking on the iPad and a desktop OS. Tough. There's better ways of pursuing the iPad wanna-be hoop dream than dicking up Windows.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:57 PM   #74
DaveStall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaap View Post

Oh, but that doesn't fit into Microsoft's hoop dream of being both a tablet OS taking on the iPad and a desktop OS. Tough. There's better ways of pursuing the iPad wanna-be hoop dream than dicking up Windows.
True, although I would also add OS X to that mix as well. Apple is taking it much slower than MS but every upgrade I make to my MacBook Pro makes it just a little more tablet like in operation. I believe both companies are trying to merge their various gadgets and associated operating systems into one product (well, one OS anyhow). Heck, even Ubuntu is doing it on the Linux front. I think MS went a bit too far in making such a radical change all at once but I think we can expect to see more of this in the future.

** Edit: I agree ME was a steaming pile. I have yet to meet one single person that has anything good to say about it!

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Old 12-18-2012, 10:30 AM   #75
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Zaap has it right on this one. Win8 is Vista Jr...or Senior? It depends how you look at it. As soon as I realized it..and yes prodigy, you didn't take the time to understand that I was giving Win8 a chance by adding startisback so that I could take the time to learn the new system while being able to get work done using the old.

The aero is gone, and the graphics look like 3rd graders designed them. Or maybe the guys from South Park?

Everyone keeps saying ..just go to the desktop in the metro, and you can have that feature back...wrong..carefull how you swipe or the charms menu will jump out at you, obscuring what you are trying to do. IMO, integrating the 2 sytems just leads to confusion.

The metro section might as well be called "window"..just drop the "s" to keep it accurate.

And the main problem. Just like Vista, by the time all the third party software companies have truly compatible programs...microsoft will launch Win9.

I remember the printer that CAME WITH my HP Pavillion loaded with the ultra new version of Vista wouldn't work because the software was not compatible. I had no plans of letting that happen again with my video players, etc.

I got my refund from Best Buy..over $800, and spent my mony elswhere on a Win7 machine, that btw was not easy to find.
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