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Old 12-06-2012, 04:02 PM   #76
nehalem256
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Originally Posted by PokerGuy View Post
Democrats seem unable to accept that republicans lost the election but still had roughly 47-48% of the vote, and that their constituents will not stand for them letting the idiots in congress and the white house jack up tax rates on all rather than cutting wasteful spending. Their job is to do whatever they can to prevent the libs from destroying the country.
You do realize that the Democrats only want to jack up taxes on 2%. Or even account for the 50% of people who don't pay taxes 4% of taxpayers. In what world is 4% "all".

And really I would say the idiots in congress are the Republicans. They probably could have gotten a better deal months ago, but instead decided to bet on obstruction as a path back to power.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:12 PM   #77
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lol link it troll.
Who's the troll? I think your post would be decent evidence that you are.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:24 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Matt1970 View Post
And Democrats don't seem to understand that people just want the parties to work together.
Yeah we saw that with McConnell filibustering a record 370 times......You picked a bad time to start sniffing glue..

Here is also a great site for you to checkout all the Bills the Repubs blocked in oder to crash the Economy in an attempt to win the last Election.

Tax on Companies that ship jobs overseas- A bill that would have eliminated a tax break that companies get when they ship jobs overseas. Republicans blocked this, allowing companies to keep the tax break they receive when they ship jobs to other countries.

Political Ad disclosure bill- Would have required all donors to political campaigns to reveal themselves. Republicans blocked this, not once but twice.

Subpoena Power for the Committee investigating the BP Oil Spill – Give subpoena power to the independent committee responsible for investigating BP’s roll in the oil spill. Republicans attempted to block this.

The Small Business Jobs Act -would give LOCAL, community banks access to billions of dollars to loan to small businesses. Republicans blocked this, then attempted to block it a second time and failed.

The DREAM Act- Gives immigrant youth who were brought here as children a path to citizenship by earning a college degree or serving the military for 2 years. Republicans blocked this.

Repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”- Would have repealed the law that forces gay and lesbian services members to lie about their sexuality and gives the military the right to discharge soldiers based on their sexuality. Republicans blocked this many times and Democrats were finally able to pass it with the support of just 2 Republicans.

From Crooks and Liars - When John McCain led the filibuster of the Defense Appropriations Act yesterday, he blocked far more than the DREAM Act and repeal of DADT. Here are just a few of the other blocked provisions, courtesy of Mother Jones.

No permanent military bases in Afghanistan.
Report identifying hybrid or electric propulsion systems and other fuel-saving technologies for incorporation into tactical motor vehicles.
Protection of child custody arrangements for parents who are members of the Armed Forces deployed in support of a contingency operation.
Improvements to Department of Defense domestic violence programs.
Department of Defense recognition of spouses of members of the Armed Forces.
Department of Defense recognition of children of members of the Armed Forces.
Enhancements to the Troops-to-Teachers Program.
Fiscal year 2011 increase in military basic pay.
Improving aural protection for members of the Armed Forces.
Comprehensive policy on neurocognitive assessment by the military health care system.
Authority to make excess nonlethal supplies available for domestic emergency assistance.
And those were just some of the progressive provisions. On the conservative side, there are these, and more:

Prohibition on the use of funds for the transfer or release of individuals detained at United States Naval Station, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Prohibition on the use of funds to modify or construct facilities in the United States to house detainees transferred from United States Naval Station, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Prohibition on use of funds to give Miranda warnings to Al Qaeda terrorists.
And here’s the bills that Republicans had blocked when we compiled our first list;

Senator Franken’s Anti-Rape Amendment to the Defense Appropriations Bill – Makes it so that women raped overseas while working for foreign contractors have the right to have their case heard in an American court instead of having their case mediated by the company they work for. Only Republican men voted against this, but it passed.

Benefits for Homeless Veterans- Would have expanded benefits to homeless veterans and homeless veterans with children. Republicans blocked this.

Affordable Health Care For America Act- Prevents insurance companies from discriminating against you on the basis of “pre-existing conditions”. Requires that insurance companies spend 85 cents of every dollar that you pay on your actual health care. Limits health insurance companies profit margins. Republicans blocked this for months before it finally passed and have vowed to repeal it if they are elected.

Health Care for the 9/11 First Responders who got sick from being at Ground Zero- Would provide billions of dollars in health care to help the 9/11 First Responders who were at Ground Zero on 9/11 and are now sick because of it. Republicans blocked this.

The Jobs Bill- Offsets the payroll tax for 1 year for companies that hire new employees, or people receiving unemployment insurance. Also gives other tax incentives to companies hiring new employees. Republicans attempted to block this.

Wall Street Reform- Puts stricter regulations on the banks, preventing them from becoming “too big to fail”. Curbs reckless spending practices that caused the banking crisis. Republicans attempted to block this.

American Recovery and Reinvestment Act- Pumped billions of dollars into state and local Governments to prevent us from sinking into a second Great Depression. Republicans opposed this but now want to take credit for the parts of it that we know are successful.

Oil Spill Liability- Raises the liability on what companies can be made to pay to clean up after an oil spill. Republicans blocked this.

Immigration Reform- Republican suggested comprehensive immigration reform until Obama supported it. Now they’re rabidly opposed to it and even voted against their own legislation. Republicans blocked this.

Unemployment extension bill HR-4213- Would provide additional aid to the millions of Americans still on unemployment who are just trying to support themselves and their families. Republicans blocked this bill for 8 weeks before it finally passed. Republicans blocked this for 8 weeks before it finally passed.

Fair Pay Act of 2009- Also called the Lily Ledbetter bill. Requires that women receive equal compensation to men for doing the same work. Republicans attempted to block this.

The next time someone tells you that the Republicans care about the American people just give them this list of all the bill Republicans wanted to fail.

http://www.woodcountydemocrats.com/i...ases&Itemid=96

Republicons make me want to puke...they got into power running on jobs and saying they are the "Champions of Small Business" but blocked ALL bills to help these people.
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Last edited by Ausm; 12-06-2012 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:38 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by EagleKeeper View Post
Difficult to create jobs when the overall economy has tanked; Jobs are created based on demand; there was no demand;

Everyone was sitting around paralyzed.
No no no, that's not how it works. Jobs were not created because the taxes are too damn high!
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:40 PM   #80
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And Democrats don't seem to understand that people just want the parties to work together.
Keep thinking that the Dem's are the ones who don't want to work together while over 50% of the general population will blame Republicans if we go over the "cliff."
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:00 PM   #81
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Where were the members of your "Party to Work Together-i-ness" before the election?

Can you understand how we on the other side have a bit of a "go fuck yourself" attitude when after 2 years of NOTHING BUT obstructionism, you claim that now, after getting your asses handed to you last month, we should all "work together"?
Oh you mean the obstructionism like when Obama who promised transparency and to reach across the isle and work with Republicans wrote the largest piece of legislation in history behind closed doors without one Republican present? Then after promising to have every bill spend no fewer than 5 days online before he signed it insisted on signing it within 72 hours? That kind of obstruction? Or are you referring to when he promised to hold Social Security hostage if the debt ceiling wasn’t raised?
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:05 PM   #82
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Who's the troll? I think your post would be decent evidence that you are.
How dare I ask you to substantiate your claims! lol
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:18 PM   #83
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Oh you mean the obstructionism like when Obama who promised transparency and to reach across the isle and work with Republicans wrote the largest piece of legislation in history behind closed doors without one Republican present? Then after promising to have every bill spend no fewer than 5 days online before he signed it insisted on signing it within 72 hours? That kind of obstruction? Or are you referring to when he promised to hold Social Security hostage if the debt ceiling wasn’t raised?
I don't think you understand what the word "obstruction" means...

Either that, or you're just *playing* stupid.

ETA: GOOD GOD MATT, *NEHALEM* IS MAKING MORE SENSE THAN YOU ARE RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!1

...let that sink in for a bit...
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:51 PM   #84
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In terms of Boehner getting real on taxes, its hard to believe the thread title when he send his congressment home, closing down the House to doing doing the peoples business, while extremely tough fiscal cliff negotiations are going on.

http://news.yahoo.com/pelosi-rips-ho...-politics.html
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:58 PM   #85
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Keep thinking that the Dem's are the ones who don't want to work together while over 50% of the general population will blame Republicans if we go over the "cliff."
How do dems want to work with republicans?

MSLM LIE.

Obama and the Dems are telling republicans if its not done the Obama way, Obama will take the counrty off the clif.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:59 PM   #86
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Depends on what you mean by investment. When it's used to build factories in China, it definitely goes out of the economy.
So, if I'm building a factory in China I must take my US $'s and buy Yuan.

Now, what does the person whom I brought the yuan from do with those US $'s?

Think about it for a while.

(Anyway you cut it, short of claiming (s)he buries them in the ground or shoves them under mattress, it comes back into the USA.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhhnn View Post
When it's used merely to cover vast amounts of money swirling over our heads in derivatives, it's functionally out of the economy of normal commerce.
Really?

Where does it go?

When I buy a derivative what does the seller do with the money?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhhnn View Post
when it's just about asset inflation in the market, it does commerce little to no good. When it piles up as corporate cash reserves, it's simply withheld from the economy. When it's used to buy govt securities, currently very popular, we might as well take part of it as taxes to gain the same result w/o interest or future financial obligation.
Do you know where the vast majority of corporate cash reserves are parked?

I do. It's parked in banks.

Now what do banks do with money?
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:02 PM   #87
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Spending from 1981 to 1989 adjusted for inflation and population growth went up 11% under Reagan (who never had a republican house btw). Revenues increased 16% (adjusted for inflation and population growth )during the same time period.
Yeh, and the Debt tripled.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/r...ebt_histo4.htm

You were saying?
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:14 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Pr0d1gy View Post
Yeah, the economy has tanked yet corporations set a record for profits. Keep believing the bullshit. The only thing that tanked was the love for this great nation by the people who profit the most from it. Way to work it through, really brilliant.
Yet we've had over 200,000 business go bankrupt between 2008 and 2011.

http://www.abiworld.org/AM/AMTemplat...ONTENTID=66155

The IRS hasn't yet published data beyond 2008 for corporate tax returns and income reported, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's still below 2007 levels.

Yes, corporations have cuts costs and the survivors picked up extra business from those who went bankrupt.

Statistics (record high corp profit) have a way of misleading.

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Old 12-06-2012, 06:15 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Ausm View Post
Yeah we saw that with McConnell filibustering a record 370 times......You picked a bad time to start sniffing glue..

Here is also a great site for you to checkout all the Bills the Repubs blocked in oder to crash the Economy in an attempt to win the last Election.

Tax on Companies that ship jobs overseas- A bill that would have eliminated a tax break that companies get when they ship jobs overseas. Republicans blocked this, allowing companies to keep the tax break they receive when they ship jobs to other countries.

Political Ad disclosure bill- Would have required all donors to political campaigns to reveal themselves. Republicans blocked this, not once but twice.

Subpoena Power for the Committee investigating the BP Oil Spill – Give subpoena power to the independent committee responsible for investigating BP’s roll in the oil spill. Republicans attempted to block this.

The Small Business Jobs Act -would give LOCAL, community banks access to billions of dollars to loan to small businesses. Republicans blocked this, then attempted to block it a second time and failed.

The DREAM Act- Gives immigrant youth who were brought here as children a path to citizenship by earning a college degree or serving the military for 2 years. Republicans blocked this.

Repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”- Would have repealed the law that forces gay and lesbian services members to lie about their sexuality and gives the military the right to discharge soldiers based on their sexuality. Republicans blocked this many times and Democrats were finally able to pass it with the support of just 2 Republicans.

From Crooks and Liars - When John McCain led the filibuster of the Defense Appropriations Act yesterday, he blocked far more than the DREAM Act and repeal of DADT. Here are just a few of the other blocked provisions, courtesy of Mother Jones.

No permanent military bases in Afghanistan.
Report identifying hybrid or electric propulsion systems and other fuel-saving technologies for incorporation into tactical motor vehicles.
Protection of child custody arrangements for parents who are members of the Armed Forces deployed in support of a contingency operation.
Improvements to Department of Defense domestic violence programs.
Department of Defense recognition of spouses of members of the Armed Forces.
Department of Defense recognition of children of members of the Armed Forces.
Enhancements to the Troops-to-Teachers Program.
Fiscal year 2011 increase in military basic pay.
Improving aural protection for members of the Armed Forces.
Comprehensive policy on neurocognitive assessment by the military health care system.
Authority to make excess nonlethal supplies available for domestic emergency assistance.
And those were just some of the progressive provisions. On the conservative side, there are these, and more:

Prohibition on the use of funds for the transfer or release of individuals detained at United States Naval Station, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Prohibition on the use of funds to modify or construct facilities in the United States to house detainees transferred from United States Naval Station, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Prohibition on use of funds to give Miranda warnings to Al Qaeda terrorists.
And here’s the bills that Republicans had blocked when we compiled our first list;

Senator Franken’s Anti-Rape Amendment to the Defense Appropriations Bill – Makes it so that women raped overseas while working for foreign contractors have the right to have their case heard in an American court instead of having their case mediated by the company they work for. Only Republican men voted against this, but it passed.

Benefits for Homeless Veterans- Would have expanded benefits to homeless veterans and homeless veterans with children. Republicans blocked this.

Affordable Health Care For America Act- Prevents insurance companies from discriminating against you on the basis of “pre-existing conditions”. Requires that insurance companies spend 85 cents of every dollar that you pay on your actual health care. Limits health insurance companies profit margins. Republicans blocked this for months before it finally passed and have vowed to repeal it if they are elected.

Health Care for the 9/11 First Responders who got sick from being at Ground Zero- Would provide billions of dollars in health care to help the 9/11 First Responders who were at Ground Zero on 9/11 and are now sick because of it. Republicans blocked this.

The Jobs Bill- Offsets the payroll tax for 1 year for companies that hire new employees, or people receiving unemployment insurance. Also gives other tax incentives to companies hiring new employees. Republicans attempted to block this.

Wall Street Reform- Puts stricter regulations on the banks, preventing them from becoming “too big to fail”. Curbs reckless spending practices that caused the banking crisis. Republicans attempted to block this.

American Recovery and Reinvestment Act- Pumped billions of dollars into state and local Governments to prevent us from sinking into a second Great Depression. Republicans opposed this but now want to take credit for the parts of it that we know are successful.

Oil Spill Liability- Raises the liability on what companies can be made to pay to clean up after an oil spill. Republicans blocked this.

Immigration Reform- Republican suggested comprehensive immigration reform until Obama supported it. Now they’re rabidly opposed to it and even voted against their own legislation. Republicans blocked this.

Unemployment extension bill HR-4213- Would provide additional aid to the millions of Americans still on unemployment who are just trying to support themselves and their families. Republicans blocked this bill for 8 weeks before it finally passed. Republicans blocked this for 8 weeks before it finally passed.

Fair Pay Act of 2009- Also called the Lily Ledbetter bill. Requires that women receive equal compensation to men for doing the same work. Republicans attempted to block this.

The next time someone tells you that the Republicans care about the American people just give them this list of all the bill Republicans wanted to fail.

http://www.woodcountydemocrats.com/i...ases&Itemid=96

Republicons make me want to puke...they got into power running on jobs and saying they are the "Champions of Small Business" but blocked ALL bills to help these people.
Aww, did you type all that out for me? I will just ignore it to piss you off.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:17 PM   #90
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I'll make a hard prediction once something actually passes, as sometimes the budgets are gimmicky and they might backload a lot of savings or taxes. Either way we'll still run a deficit without question, even if Obama's current (high opening bid) proposal passes into law. But I'm hoping less than half a trillion dollar deficit by 2014, I think that's realistic. But frankly it's all extremely dependent on economic growth, and China and Europe slowing down is not a good omen in the near term.

So unless Obama gets fleeced on tax rates somehow and only passes very small ones, we'll see significantly lower deficits either way. Which is great.
Quoted for posterity and,

WTF are you smoking?

Pardon me for saying so, but you have no clue about our fiscal situation, how budgeting works or how our govt functions.

Fern
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:19 PM   #91
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[QUOTE=Fern;34338322]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhhnn View Post
Depends on what you mean by investment. When it's used to build factories in China, it definitely goes out of the economy.

So, if I'm building a factory in China I must take my US $'s and buy Yuan.

Now, what does the person whom I brought the yuan from do with those US $'s?

Think about it for a while.

(Anyway you cut it, short of claiming (s)he buries them in the ground or shoves them under mattress, it comes back into the USA.)
The dollar is the world's reserve currency. They spend it wherever they want. Doesn't mean it will come home, ever. We've run balance of payments deficits for decades.

Quote:
Really?

Where does it go?

When I buy a derivative what does the seller do with the money?
Buys more derivatives? Hustles it offshore as fast as they can get it? Chases market returns based on the greater fool theory? They sure as Hell don't spend it the way middle class families spend income, at all.

Quote:
Do you know where the vast majority of corporate cash reserves are parked?

I do. It's parked in banks.

Now what do banks do with money?
You silly man. They lend it, except when everybody & their dog is deleveraging, like it's been for the last 4 years. It's called a liquidity trap, something Righties won't acknowledge to even exist. It pitches their usual economic blather right under the bus, so they pretend it isn't happening. It's the result of extreme over extension of credit during the Ownership Society scam.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:41 PM   #92
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You silly man. They lend it, except when everybody & their dog is deleveraging, like it's been for the last 4 years. It's called a liquidity trap, something Righties won't acknowledge to even exist. It pitches their usual economic blather right under the bus, so they pretend it isn't happening. It's the result of extreme over extension of credit during the Ownership Society scam.
Get your story straight. First you said the money was out of the economy then you say it's really in the economy, it's just that nobody wants to borrow it. Make up your mind, what is it?
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:43 PM   #93
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The dollar is the world's reserve currency. They spend it wherever they want. Doesn't mean it will come home, ever. We've run balance of payments deficits for decades.
You can't spend US $'s in other countries.

There are small amounts held for sale (currency x-changes)

The $'s are deposited into (foreign banks) and work their way back here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhhnn View Post
Buys more derivatives? Hustles it offshore as fast as they can get it? Chases market returns based on the greater fool theory? They sure as Hell don't spend it the way middle class families spend income, at all.
Ends up in a US bank that loans it, either to customers or other bank via the banking system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhhnn View Post
You silly man. They lend it
Exactly.

It never leaves the economy, and if it does it's not for long.

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Old 12-06-2012, 06:51 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Fern View Post
Quoted for posterity and,

WTF are you smoking?

Pardon me for saying so, but you have no clue about our fiscal situation, how budgeting works or how our govt functions.

Fern
I like the detailed counterargument contained within your post, so voluminous.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:34 PM   #95
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You can't spend US $'s in other countries.

There are small amounts held for sale (currency x-changes)

The $'s are deposited into (foreign banks) and work their way back here.
That's not the role of the world's reserve currency, & we both know it. Foreign entities, including govts, want & hold dollars, which are convertible to any currency they desire at floating exchange rates. In order to be the reserve currency, we must be willing to provide an extra supply to fulfill that role.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma

You also fail to account for the dollar carry trade and for the enormous increase in banking reserves- available money that isn't being lent, at all. You're still in denial wrt the liquidity trap. I suggest you study the idea, because you won't understand what's happening until you do-

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ad-delong.html
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:02 PM   #96
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Get your story straight. First you said the money was out of the economy then you say it's really in the economy, it's just that nobody wants to borrow it. Make up your mind, what is it?
Over your head, huh?
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:20 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by michal1980 View Post
How do dems want to work with republicans?

MSLM LIE.

Obama and the Dems are telling republicans if its not done the Obama way, Obama will take the counrty off the clif.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earth to Mikey, the republicans say its their way or the highway too, in what amounts to the tyranny of the minority. After all, in the election of 11/2012, the American people dope slapped the Republicans by reelecting Obama and dope slapped the GOP by making gains in the House and Senate.

But Mikey, you might want to read that other thread, that American polling data shows, if the Dems and the Repubs can't come to an agreement by midnight 12/31/2012 and thus go
off the fiscal cliff, its far more probable the American people will blame the GOP.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:12 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Lemon law View Post
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Earth to Mikey, the republicans say its their way or the highway too, in what amounts to the tyranny of the minority. After all, in the election of 11/2012, the American people dope slapped the Republicans by reelecting Obama and dope slapped the GOP by making gains in the House and Senate.

But Mikey, you might want to read that other thread, that American polling data shows, if the Dems and the Repubs can't come to an agreement by midnight 12/31/2012 and thus go
off the fiscal cliff, its far more probable the American people will blame the GOP.

Your wrong, originally the republicans wanted ZERO tax increases, they already caved on increasing taxes for the rich, Obama won that. Now what has Obama given up? thats right nothing. Social Security - Off the table, Medicare dont touch, all according to the left.

Heck Obama's plan includes more stimulis spending, because what goverment is spending now isn't enough.


The american people will blame the republicans becauses thats how the MSLM will spin it.


If the republicans had control over more then Fox News, the poll results would be different.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:29 PM   #99
Jhhnn
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Originally Posted by michal1980 View Post
Your wrong, originally the republicans wanted ZERO tax increases, they already caved on increasing taxes for the rich, Obama won that. Now what has Obama given up? thats right nothing. Social Security - Off the table, Medicare dont touch, all according to the left.

Heck Obama's plan includes more stimulis spending, because what goverment is spending now isn't enough.


The american people will blame the republicans becauses thats how the MSLM will spin it.


If the republicans had control over more then Fox News, the poll results would be different.
Not nearly the truth. Repubs caved on raising taxes, but their proposals are so vague that I doubt they'll propose significant increases on the truly wealthy. The just want to throw the lower 90% of the top 2% under the bus to protect the 15% rate on investment income & carried interest, hold estate taxes at a minimum, too.

Cling to your delusion, your excuse, as to the MSM being Liberal, at all costs. In their efforts to avoid bias, they end up as stenographers for Repub bullshit all too often.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:05 AM   #100
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Not nearly the truth. Repubs caved on raising taxes, but their proposals are so vague that I doubt they'll propose significant increases on the truly wealthy. The just want to throw the lower 90% of the top 2% under the bus to protect the 15% rate on investment income & carried interest, hold estate taxes at a minimum, too.

Cling to your delusion, your excuse, as to the MSM being Liberal, at all costs. In their efforts to avoid bias, they end up as stenographers for Repub bullshit all too often.
Its not a delusion. When the people belive republicans should be blamed for the fiscal cliff, when they do not control the goverment, the reason is clear: the MSLM has carried tons of water for the dems.
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