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Old 12-04-2012, 02:20 PM   #26
Keysplayr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chimaxi83 View Post
Lol they "feel" it's better using the ultra advanced tools knows as eyeballs, which of course we all know is objective and scientific. Nvidia fanboys lap it up, so good for them I guess.
So I take it you have a problem with H's conclusion then. hehe
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:31 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by chimaxi83 View Post
Lol they "feel" it's better using the ultra advanced tools knows as eyeballs, which of course we all know is objective and scientific. Nvidia fanboys lap it up, so good for them I guess.
Hey guess who disagrees with something good about Nvidia? Surprise surprise. You post way more about hating Nvidia or nvidia card users than anything else by a massive amount. Preoccupied much?
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:34 PM   #28
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How many of us really play games like the reviewers do? My experience is that reviews rarely match actual real life results.

  • Most of us wont let our games run beyond the refresh rate of their monitor where tearing reigns supreme.
  • We use Vsync with triple buffering, or adaptive vsync to eliminate tearing.
  • How many of us use an FPS cap to eliminate stuttering? I personally use one set a few FPS below my average FPS, it seriously eliminates stutters in so many games.
  • Most of us use 3rd party tools to create custom overclocks, voltage tweaks, game profiles etc.

I use Nvidia Inspector for creating all my game profiles. On my AMD setup I use RadeonPro for the same purpose. These tools allow far more flexibility for us than the default NVCP or CCC can ever allow.

Reviews are worth checking out to find out the best hardware. As soon as most of us install our new GPU the vsync, tripple buffering, FPS limiters and other 3rd party tools come out to play.

My own experience showed me that microstutters on both Nvidia and AMD/ATI hardware could be eliminated by forcing FPS caps or using vsync and tripple buffering. For obvious reasons reviewers never do any of these things. The Tomshardware 7990 review was the 1st I ever saw that demonstrated how stutters could be reduced/eliminated by putting an FPS cap on.

Last edited by ICDP; 12-04-2012 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:44 PM   #29
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As to how it functions:

http://www.radeonpro.info/Download/R...ro_Preview.exe

Release notes:

- New: Dynamic Vsync Control (DVC) support. This feature controls how vertical synchronization is applied at rendering time, automatically turning it off when frame rate is below monitor's refresh rate to reduce stuttering and turning it on when framerate is above or equal to monitor's refresh rate, improving smoothness.

- New: Dynamic Framerate Control (DFC) support. This feature acts like a frame rate limiter with smoothness control, just set a frame rate target and RadeonPro will try to keep it as close as possible while maintaining frame rendering times close to each other to avoid stuttering.


Two different features for ppl who suffer from microstuttering. I game with vsync n tripple buffering, don't have a problem, or my eyes are bad, whatever.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/...hnology_review

DVC is the same as NV's adaptive vsync from that review. DFC is to further smooth rendering times. Hence, the result is drastic, even better than running single cards as it currently is.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:56 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Keysplayr View Post
So I take it you have a problem with H's conclusion then. hehe
Nah, you guys need something to cheer for so it's alright with me ;-)





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Hey guess who disagrees with something good about Nvidia? Surprise surprise. You post way more about hating Nvidia or nvidia card users than anything else by a massive amount. Preoccupied much?
Not as preoccupied as you are with replying to anything I say that doesn't put me on my knees for Nvidia. Please continue though, your valuable opinion absolutely means the world to me
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:01 PM   #31
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I ran xfire 7970s for a few months and wasn't happy with them at all. Microstutter and constant lockups. The funny thing is I upgraded from xfire 6970s and the 6970s were very solid for me and seemed much smoother than my 7970s. Once I changed over to 680s I noticed less stutter and lockups in games went away.

With that said I have no axe to grind. If AMD releases the next gen ahead of NV I'll buy another set of AMD xfire cards and see how it goes. I usually own both companies top end cards during their generation.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:29 PM   #32
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In some games the performace difference is so huge than you can cap the frames of 7970 crossfire above the GTX680 SLI average and have more fps and smooth gameplay.

Last edited by DiogoDX; 12-04-2012 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:31 PM   #33
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Some seem to be forgetting NVIDIA does employ technology to smooth SLI, whether this be frame rate, or frame time, I do not know, but the fact is NVIDIA uses technology to do some sort of smoothing. That is simply a fact.

Some people are more sensitive to detecting smoothness/consistency differences between SLI and CrossFireX. Like any other human sense, there are varying degrees of sensativity. Some people can detect it, while others cannot. It is analogous to FPS, some people are sensative to FPS over 60 FPS, and some simply don't feel it.

But the fact remains that NVIDIA is doing something to make SLI smoother in gameplay experience, this is known information.

So when I say I "feel" it, perhaps feel is a bad descriptive word (but it is lack of a better description that exists), it is a combination of my eyesight/brain/mouse/keyboard input, all wrapped up together that translates to "feeling" different. Descriptive word aside, you put it all together, and it all points to the same conclusion.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:41 PM   #34
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Some seem to be forgetting NVIDIA does employ technology to smooth SLI, whether this be frame rate, or frame time, I do not know, but the fact is NVIDIA uses technology to do some sort of smoothing. That is simply a fact.

Some people are more sensitive to detecting smoothness/consistency differences between SLI and CrossFireX. Like any other human sense, there are varying degrees of sensativity. Some people can detect it, while others cannot. It is analogous to FPS, some people are sensative to FPS over 60 FPS, and some simply don't feel it.

But the fact remains that NVIDIA is doing something to make SLI smoother in gameplay experience, this is known information.

So when I say I "feel" it, perhaps feel is a bad descriptive word (but it is lack of a better description that exists), it is a combination of my eyesight/brain/mouse/keyboard input, all wrapped up together that translates to "feeling" different. Descriptive word aside, you put it all together, and it all points to the same conclusion.
We dont doubt it, its a well known issue for some users. Its helped by tripple buffering and vsync, but not every game has this option so ive been forcing it through tools since the old days.

NV does average out their frame time, or metering and its smoother for a lot of ppl, but still some can notice the stutter and it annoys them.

The point is users who run CF who are bothered by ms have the free option of radeon pro (which itself is a great tool already, now with SMAA and FXAA options). As a reviewer for the enthusiast community, shouldn't you take a few minutes and explore this option?
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:20 PM   #35
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But doesn't Radeon Pro drastically reduced the fps in order to achieve stability or a more constant frametime? Correct me if I'm wrong because I am not certain nor trying to FUD this up.
It's my understanding that you can set it to maintain whatever FPS you want. Most people will obviously pick the highest FPS their PC can maintain, or their refresh rate.

I wonder if it's smoothing effects also work on single cards? Has this been explored also? I don't care what people say about Radeon Pro. It needs to be adapted to work on Nvidia and AMD both because it's far superior to either company's solution at the moment.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:21 PM   #36
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Tomshardware investigated on CF microstutter issue with RadeonPro.
And according them - ''In fact, the end result is often better than what you'd see from a single graphics card, with virtually no micro-stuttering left.''

Last edited by l2ez4m; 12-04-2012 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:22 PM   #37
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Tomshardware investigated on CF microstutter issue.
And according them - ''In fact, the end result is often better than what you'd see from a single graphics card, with virtually no micro-stuttering left.''
That was using Radeon Pro for the people who aren't going to read the article. You made it sound like Crossfire alone. They also stated that the majority of the "blips" you see in the Radeon Pro graphs were actually the game switching scenes. It's really impressive stuff. I need to buy another 7970
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:35 PM   #38
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---

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Old 12-04-2012, 04:50 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by BrentJ View Post
Some seem to be forgetting NVIDIA does employ technology to smooth SLI, whether this be frame rate, or frame time, I do not know, but the fact is NVIDIA uses technology to do some sort of smoothing. That is simply a fact.

Some people are more sensitive to detecting smoothness/consistency differences between SLI and CrossFireX. Like any other human sense, there are varying degrees of sensativity. Some people can detect it, while others cannot. It is analogous to FPS, some people are sensative to FPS over 60 FPS, and some simply don't feel it.

But the fact remains that NVIDIA is doing something to make SLI smoother in gameplay experience, this is known information.

So when I say I "feel" it, perhaps feel is a bad descriptive word (but it is lack of a better description that exists), it is a combination of my eyesight/brain/mouse/keyboard input, all wrapped up together that translates to "feeling" different. Descriptive word aside, you put it all together, and it all points to the same conclusion.
I don't doubt it for one second, I know from 1st hand experience that CF 79x0 cards do have a lot of stutter if they are left un-synced to the monitors refresh rate. The thing is I can get rid most of it by using FPS caps, or normal vsync and triple buffering. The vast majority of people don't leave their GPUs unsynched to the monitors refresh rate. If they did vsync, triple buffering, adaptive vsync and FPS limiters would not be so popular.

When you are gaming rather than benching, I bet you sync your GPUs to the monitor refresh rate in some way, just like the rest of us.

Last edited by ICDP; 12-04-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:04 PM   #40
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I don't doubt it for one second, I know from 1st hand experience that CF 79x0 cards do have a lot of stutter if they are left un-synced to the monitors refresh rate. The thing is I can get rid most of it by using FPS caps, or normal vsync and triple buffering. The vast majority of people don't leave their GPUs unsynched to the monitors refresh rate. If they did vsync, triple buffering, adaptive vsync and FPS limiters would not be so popular.

When you are gaming rather than benching, I bet you sync your GPUs to the monitor refresh rate in some way, just like the rest of us.
I can't stand Vsync because of the mouse lag it causes.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:17 PM   #41
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I can't stand Vsync because of the mouse lag it causes.
When mouse lag is a factor with vsync and triple buffering enabled, simply disable both and use an FPS limiter or adaptive vsync. Set the FPS limiter at a few FPS below the average and stutters gone and no mouse lag. I do this for both Nvidia and AMD hardware.

For example. Witcher 2 gave serious stutters on my single GTX 680 at 2560x1600. I was getting 38 FPS on average so I set the FPS cap at 35, no more stutters. The exact same thing happened with my 7970. Same game, same settings on my HD 7970 gave an average of 43 FPS but with bad stutters. I set the FPS cap at 40 and again, stutter free gaming.

This is the thing about gaming vs benchmarking. For benchmarking you have to setup a PC and games for absolute max FPS.
  • No vsync of any sort
  • No triple buffering
  • no FPS caps
  • no 3rd party tools to tweak settings
  • turn off vendor specific optimisations
For gaming most will setup the PC and games with a totally different agenda. This is why minimum FPS is more important than max FPS IMHO.
  • Vsync enabled
  • FPS caps
  • triple buffering
  • 3rd party tools to tweak settings
  • enable vendor specific optimisations if they help smoothness etc

Last edited by ICDP; 12-04-2012 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:41 PM   #42
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Radeon HD 7950 vs. GeForce GTX 660 Ti revisited

New games, new drivers prompt a rematch

http://techreport.com/review/23981/r...0-ti-revisited

The review and web-site investigates smoothness.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:49 PM   #43
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Radeon HD 7950 vs. GeForce GTX 660 Ti revisited

New games, new drivers prompt a rematch

http://techreport.com/review/23981/r...0-ti-revisited

The review and web-site investigates smoothness.

But not in the context of crossfire. No one is making the claim that there is an issue with single gpu for AMD. It's CFX only.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:52 PM   #44
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Tech Report is making a claim based on investigations and data!
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:53 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by BrentJ View Post
Some seem to be forgetting NVIDIA does employ technology to smooth SLI, whether this be frame rate, or frame time, I do not know, but the fact is NVIDIA uses technology to do some sort of smoothing. That is simply a fact.

Some people are more sensitive to detecting smoothness/consistency differences between SLI and CrossFireX. Like any other human sense, there are varying degrees of sensativity. Some people can detect it, while others cannot. It is analogous to FPS, some people are sensative to FPS over 60 FPS, and some simply don't feel it.

But the fact remains that NVIDIA is doing something to make SLI smoother in gameplay experience, this is known information.

So when I say I "feel" it, perhaps feel is a bad descriptive word (but it is lack of a better description that exists), it is a combination of my eyesight/brain/mouse/keyboard input, all wrapped up together that translates to "feeling" different. Descriptive word aside, you put it all together, and it all points to the same conclusion.
Any plans to use a high speed camera and replay things in slow-mo to get an idea of what's really happening in terms of frame time? Even a Nikon J1 ought to be sufficient and that's $250 or so, so it should be possible.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:10 PM   #46
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Any plans to use a high speed camera and replay things in slow-mo to get an idea of what's really happening in terms of frame time? Even a Nikon J1 ought to be sufficient and that's $250 or so, so it should be possible.

Fraps will actually record the frame time of every frame. As long as it is getting the true frame time, that's enough.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:16 PM   #47
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TechReport does a solid job on smoothness attributes based on the site's findings are primarily data more than subjective!

Last edited by SirPauly; 12-04-2012 at 07:31 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:07 PM   #48
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Looks like [h] and techreport have now joined ABT in being bought out Nvidia stomping grounds. Discount their tests before sleep is lost!
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:21 PM   #49
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But not in the context of crossfire. No one is making the claim that there is an issue with single gpu for AMD. It's CFX only.
But looking at those TechReport data, it kinda makes even more sense why H states SLI "feels" smoother than CFX. I mean, look at those TR graphs. The 7950 is all over the place with frametimes and latency. I never imagined a single card could "stutter" that badly for lack of a better word. Now it makes more sense when hearing people feel NV is smoother than AMD.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:05 PM   #50
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But looking at those TechReport data, it kinda makes even more sense why H states SLI "feels" smoother than CFX. I mean, look at those TR graphs. The 7950 is all over the place with frametimes and latency. I never imagined a single card could "stutter" for lack of a better word. Now it makes more sense when hearing people feel NV is smoother than AMD.
Could explain in part the big performance improvements out of the "never settle" drivers. AMD chose to optimize throughput at the expense of orderly output. Optimize drivers for what most reviews show - absolute frame rates - and hope that the more frequently occuring hiccups aren't noticed or are overlooked because only a small handful of websites investigate beyond averages and minimums
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