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Old 12-04-2012, 12:01 AM   #51
Matt1970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhhnn View Post
Straight to denial, of course.

Here's another piece that just might burn your eyes out-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-debt-ceiling/

Obama's deficit reduction proposals go beyond what Repubs can swallow...

And another, showing how Repub arrogance in 2011 has left them in a corner today-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...m_business_pop
Gotta love it, reduce the deficit by removing the debt ceiling.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:02 AM   #52
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Gotta love it, reduce the deficit by removing the debt ceiling.
How does the debt ceiling reduce the deficit.

In fact it has added to our deficit by creating a micro recession the last time Republicans held the country hostage. I wonder if anyone has calculated the revenue impact of that crisis?
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:08 AM   #53
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How does the debt ceiling reduce the deficit.

In fact it has added to our deficit by creating a micro recession the last time Republicans held the country hostage. I wonder if anyone has calculated the revenue impact of that crisis?
It is supposed to put a lid on spending. You rather just give Obama a blank check? You and I seem to remember the Democrats refusing to cut $66 Billion out of a budget very differently than I do.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:12 AM   #54
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It is supposed to put a lid on spending. You rather just give Obama a blank check? You and I seem to remember the Democrats refusing to cut $66 Billion out of a budget very differently than I do.
It doesn't put a lid on spending. It puts a lid on paying what we already owe.

Thinking the debt ceiling is an answer to the deficit is like thinking lighting your credit card bills on fire is a solution to your debt.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:21 AM   #55
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It doesn't put a lid on spending. It puts a lid on paying what we already owe.

Thinking the debt ceiling is an answer to the deficit is like thinking lighting your credit card bills on fire is a solution to your debt.
And eliminating the debt ceiling is like getting more credit cards to solve your debt problem. And yes, it is absolutely supposed to put a limit on spending. Why do you think it has to be raised each year to fund the Gov?

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Under Article I Section 8 of the United States Constitution, Congress has the sole power to borrow money on the credit of the United States. From the founding of the United States until 1917 Congress directly authorized each individual debt issuance separately. In order to provide more flexibility to finance the United States' involvement in World War I, Congress modified the method by which it authorizes debt in the Second Liberty Bond Act of 1917.[57] Under this act Congress established an aggregate limit, or "ceiling," on the total amount of bonds that could be issued.

The current debt ceiling, in which an aggregate limit is applied to nearly all federal debt, was substantially established by Public Debt Acts[58][59] passed in 1939 and 1941. The Treasury is authorized to issue debt needed to fund government operations (as authorized by each federal budget) up to a stated debt ceiling, with some small exceptions.

Last edited by Matt1970; 12-04-2012 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:26 AM   #56
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And eliminating the debt ceiling is like getting more credit cards to solve your debt problem.
You don't seem to understand that we've already bought whatever we're spending money on, and the debt ceiling doesn't prevent that. Hence lighting credit card bill on fire.

What do you think happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised? If you don't know, I'll tell you--we default on the debt. I.e. we light our credit card bill on fire. That does not solve any problem that creates one, considering we currently don't have a problem. When people talk about a fiscal crisis they are talking about trends leading to decades from now that need to be fixed. What you're talking about creates a crisis out of thin air.

National debt isn't like personal debt. Our debt as a percentage of GDP is higher than it should be but is not at a point where we face collapse. If we start doing things like not paying our bills, because we don't raise the debt ceiling, we create problems for ourselves that didn't exist previously.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:03 AM   #57
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Apparently the GOP wasn't listening back in November when America spoke clearly again. Keep playing obstructionist politics and we'll keep voting you out one by one...
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:21 AM   #58
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You don't seem to understand that we've already bought whatever we're spending money on, and the debt ceiling doesn't prevent that. Hence lighting credit card bill on fire.

What do you think happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised? If you don't know, I'll tell you--we default on the debt. I.e. we light our credit card bill on fire. That does not solve any problem that creates one, considering we currently don't have a problem. When people talk about a fiscal crisis they are talking about trends leading to decades from now that need to be fixed. What you're talking about creates a crisis out of thin air.

National debt isn't like personal debt. Our debt as a percentage of GDP is higher than it should be but is not at a point where we face collapse. If we start doing things like not paying our bills, because we don't raise the debt ceiling, we create problems for ourselves that didn't exist previously.
I don't know how I can simplify this for you. The debt ceiling is the amount of debt the government is allowed to incure to fund the fiscal year. That includes all it's bills from paychecks for federal employees to interest payments on the national debt. If the debt ceiling isn't raised, the U.S. will then have to decide which expenses and debts to pay and which can wait. You only default if you decide to not pay the interest on the debt.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:44 AM   #59
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I don't know how I can simplify this for you. The debt ceiling is the amount of debt the government is allowed to incure to fund the fiscal year. That includes all it's bills from paychecks for federal employees to interest payments on the national debt. If the debt ceiling isn't raised, the U.S. will then have to decide which expenses and debts to pay and which can wait. You only default if you decide to not pay the interest on the debt.
Ok, so..

debt ceiling is not raised.

Exception is the interest on the debt. We're only allowed to pay that.

The military has ceased getting paychecks and our defense spending is cut off (don't have an exact percentage for you, but a huge portion of federal spending).

Social security and Medicare payments are stopped, people who planned retirement around these programs are left to fend for themselves (don't have an exact percentage for you, but a huge portion of federal spending).

The government grinds to a halt (discretionary spending, a small fraction of federal spending)

In other words, your credit card bills are in a big flaming pile

I'm assuming you're a teenager. It's the only explanation. Talk to your parents about their retirement plan.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:35 AM   #60
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Ok, so..

debt ceiling is not raised.

Exception is the interest on the debt. We're only allowed to pay that.

The military has ceased getting paychecks and our defense spending is cut off (don't have an exact percentage for you, but a huge portion of federal spending).

Social security and Medicare payments are stopped, people who planned retirement around these programs are left to fend for themselves (don't have an exact percentage for you, but a huge portion of federal spending).

The government grinds to a halt (discretionary spending, a small fraction of federal spending)

In other words, your credit card bills are in a big flaming pile

I'm assuming you're a teenager. It's the only explanation. Talk to your parents about their retirement plan.
actually your side has the teenager response;

"Our credit cards are maxed out"

Oh what to do.

Lefts solution: Get more credit card.

The only grown up solution is to stop spending more money then you take in, take away the credit card from the addicts, and set up a budget they can live with to pay of what they owe.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:48 AM   #61
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They didn't say that at all, unless you count smoke and mirrors as a concrete proposal.

This sums it up rather well-

http://swampland.time.com/2012/11/30...nt-full-of-it/

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/201...lling-tantrum/

This is what Repub leaders want increased revenue to look like-

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/201...d-the-players/

Throw the lower 90% of the top 1% overboard if necessary, but don't touch the ultra wealthy...
I haven't seen that proposal reported anywhere else. Can you provide another source?
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:39 AM   #62
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All tax increases should be blamed squarely on the Republicans.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:08 AM   #63
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actually your side has the teenager response;

"Our credit cards are maxed out"

Oh what to do.

Lefts solution: Get more credit card.

The only grown up solution is to stop spending more money then you take in, take away the credit card from the addicts, and set up a budget they can live with to pay of what they owe.
This really is lame. Congress already authorized the spending in various appropriations bills. They knew that the debt ceiling would be exceeded when they passed those bills. If they want to place conditions on such spending, they need to do it before the appropriation bills are sent to the President. Otherwise, it's very damaging to the credibility of the Govt, of which they are obviously a part.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:25 AM   #64
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I think Obama needs to take a had core public stance telling the people everyones taxes will go up when the fiscal cliff hits and it will be the GOPs fault. Then when it happens the people will know what party to blame (GOP) and thus nail in coffin for them.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:44 AM   #65
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You're right, from DailyKos (not my favorite source but I go there for counterpoint):



So basically Mitt Romney's tax plan. The $800 billion is probably projected revenue by increasing GDP forecast, pulled out of their ass


They are proposing a Fictitious solution that the American people have rejected CLEARLY in the last Election. The Democrats want REAL numbers put in writing so the Republicans can EAT the cuts to the Social Contract programs that a majority of Americans support.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:47 AM   #66
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I haven't seen that proposal reported anywhere else. Can you provide another source?
It's what the whole repub song & dance about deductions is aimed at accomplishing. People with relatively high earned income use those deductions to reduce their effective tax rate. People whose enormous incomes are derived from investment start from a much lower top marginal rate, 15% vs 35%.

People in the $250K-$400K range fight like Hell for every deduction to bring their effective tax rate down to ~22%. They've structured their spending around the ability to do that, particularly wrt housing. The Romneys of this world max out at 15-18%, anyway, on much, much larger incomes. The only way to effectively have them pay more taxes is to raise their rates, because deductions don't do that much for them in comparison.

Raising revenues means raising somebody's taxes, and Repub leaders want to spare those most easily able to pay more, the true Bush constituency. It's what they believe in, and they'll toss whoever they need to sacrifice right under the bus to accomplish that.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:00 AM   #67
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Nobody is addressing that the Bush tax cuts were highly irresponsible in the first place.



http://www.nbcnews.com/business/econ...ades-1C7378082
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:28 AM   #68
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I think Obama needs to take a had core public stance telling the people everyones taxes will go up when the fiscal cliff hits and it will be the GOPs fault. Then when it happens the people will know what party to blame (GOP) and thus nail in coffin for them.
Hate to say you're an idiot... and I'm not defending Republicans here - but the blame is automatically directed to whichever party is POTUS - regardless. The general public is always and forever will be that stupid. And hate to break it to you, but republicans are talking. Republicans are branching off from their stance of not raising taxes. Obama is throwing them a bone without the steak.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:44 AM   #69
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They are proposing a Fictitious solution that the American people have rejected CLEARLY in the last Election. The Democrats want REAL numbers put in writing so the Republicans can EAT the cuts to the Social Contract programs that a majority of Americans support.
10pm news
Americans support getting more then they pay for.


shocking.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:48 AM   #70
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Apparently the GOP wasn't listening back in November when America spoke clearly again. Keep playing obstructionist politics and we'll keep voting you out one by one...
Yep, more regurgitated Ryan plan nonsense, which the voters handily rejected.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:50 AM   #71
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Color me surprised, no details on how the Republicans plan to raise revenue by $800B.
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They are proposing a Fictitious solution that the American people have rejected CLEARLY in the last Election. The Democrats want REAL numbers put in writing so the Republicans can EAT the cuts to the Social Contract programs that a majority of Americans support.
Why should they give details on their plan? The Democrats gave them 'unspecified cuts'. Yep lots of detail and REAL numbers there. *

I don't think either side knows how to deal with real numbers when the public is actually going to pay attention. It's become to hard to fudge the numbers. I would really like both sides to use actual numbers as we might get some valid discourse between the two groups.

However - this is what I predict will happen: One side will release actual specified details on their plan (Slight edge to it being the Democrats). The otherside won't and will take the opportunity to poke holes in the plan while pretending not to notice their plan is nothing more than a vague outline on a napkin. Negotiations will be intense, but hindered by partisanship, retardation and a lack of detail. End result: We end up with nothing that fixes the long term issues and is only slightly better than the cliff

*Not saying this is a stance I agree with but its the stance I bet they are taking. Its much more politically safe to use vagaries than give actual numbers. If the other side can't be bothered to use real numbers why should they take the risk?

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I don't think either side is taking this serious.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:14 AM   #72
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I haven't seen that proposal reported anywhere else. Can you provide another source?
He gave us 3 highly partisan op-eds...what more could you possibly want?
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:21 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Matt1970 View Post
I don't know how I can simplify this for you. The debt ceiling is the amount of debt the government is allowed to incure to fund the fiscal year. That includes all it's bills from paychecks for federal employees to interest payments on the national debt. If the debt ceiling isn't raised, the U.S. will then have to decide which expenses and debts to pay and which can wait. You only default if you decide to not pay the interest on the debt.
Since we don't have a major political party that is seriously interested in and committed to cutting spending, the debt ceiling is completely impotent at curbing spending.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:30 AM   #74
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Obama signs nothing by Jan. 1st.

Bush tax cuts expire. Win.

Dem's push middle class tax cut bill through the Senate on Jan. 2nd. Win.

Do you really think the GOP is suicidal enough to reject cutting middle class taxes? I hope so, because it's a surefire way to get a Democratic majority in the House by 2014.
This. Nothing will happen till Jan 1, and then everyone will be a savior/tax cutter.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:33 AM   #75
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Details? All I have seen is the "pro growth" tax revamp with LOWER rates. Talk about "magic math". The Laffer curve is starting to turn into a "Laugher" curve at these rates.
This, CBO says that math is BS, which makes it a non-starter.
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