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Old 12-02-2012, 02:40 PM   #1
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Default Apparently Squeenix's 'Agni's Philosophy" can run on a single gtx 680...

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20121129_575412.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20121129_575412.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DFow%26tbo%3Dd%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial&sa=X&ei=8rm7UK_ZI4TUtAa6woC4DA&ved=0CD QQ7gEwAA


At 60 FPS ... with 8XMSAA ... and FXAA...

The rest of the system specs are a core i7 3770k with 32 gb of system ram (they say the 3770 is barely used and most of the grind is done on the GPU - makes sense, since the whole thing is 100% scripted).

So what say you, oh anandtech maistros of the semiconducting transistor? Is this possible, or is it a clever ruse set up by an obscure japanese tech site, Square Enix, or the Nazi Lizard people plotting world conquest from within the dark depths of our world?

I myself haven't finished reading the whole article because I'm so petty, I had to make sure I posted it before anyone else had the chance
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:57 PM   #2
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Well, with something made from the ground up to use DX11 to its full potential including multi-threaded drivers I don't see why not.

You can see where some corners might have been cut to get the performance to acceptable levels, not to mention most shots of the highly detailed characters have a narrow FOV with a strong DOF so the engine doesn't have to render much else at those times. Also, MSAA doesn't appear to be applied to everything, such as the gold effect textures and such.

I found the Samaritan demo more impressive overall, but this engine is definitely a good thing for the industry moving forward.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:04 PM   #3
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The Samaritan and this demo are both equally impressive looking. I'd love to have games coming by early 2014 with this graphical fidelity. Would be amazing!
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:10 PM   #4
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So, practically, what this shows is that PC games nowadays, especially ports, are horribly, horrrrrrrrrribly unoptimized and could look much better given some honest-to-god effort by the devs. What a surprise!
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:30 PM   #5
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Is this possible, or is it a clever ruse set up by an obscure japanese tech site, Square Enix, or the Nazi Lizard people plotting world conquest from within the dark depths of our world?
This is the Luminous engine, I've been following its' development for a while now.

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So, practically, what this shows is that PC games nowadays, especially ports, are horribly, horrrrrrrrrribly unoptimized and could look much better given some honest-to-god effort by the devs. What a surprise!
You volunteering the $50 million to get a game with that level of visual fidelity made on the PC? If you did I'm sure you would be thought of very highly by the tens of millions of people who would pirate the game *and* the couple hundred thousand that would buy it too

Seems a bit odd that all the rumors point towards AMD graphics parts being used in all the next generation consoles, yet Squeenix is optimizing this engine for nVidia hardware.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:46 PM   #6
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You volunteering the $50 million to get a game with that level of visual fidelity made on the PC? If you did I'm sure you would be thought of very highly by the tens of millions of people who would pirate the game *and* the couple hundred thousand that would buy it too

Seems a bit odd that all the rumors point towards AMD graphics parts being used in all the next generation consoles, yet Squeenix is optimizing this engine for nVidia hardware.
TWIWMTBP and Gaming Evolved showed us that games don't need to be optimized for any specific vendor hardware, barring dirty tricks like blocking functionality or excessively using a feature that works much better on a given vendor hardware. There are many nv games that run faster on AMD hardware and vice versa.
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:36 PM   #7
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TWIWMTBP and Gaming Evolved showed us that games don't need to be optimized for any specific vendor hardware, barring dirty tricks like blocking functionality or excessively using a feature that works much better on a given vendor hardware. There are many nv games that run faster on AMD hardware and vice versa.
If you read the breakdown of the technology it is very much optimized for nVidia. Squenix is different then typical PC companies, they make games for exacting hardware- not general purpose code. If you go down the feature list of the supported features it is clearly built for nV hardware.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:02 AM   #8
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You volunteering the $50 million to get a game with that level of visual fidelity made on the PC?
One of the aspects of good optimization is that a game can look better OR it can run faster (or both); If they don't want to spend "50 million" dollars on improving the graphics (where did you get that figure anyway?) they could always code the game more thoughtfully so that it doesn't run like balls like assassin's creed 3, which looks awful. Still costs money? That's their problem. At the very least developers and publishers shouldn't complain and lie through their teeth about losing money on their PC ports when they spend peanuts to port them.

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If you did I'm sure you would be thought of very highly by the tens of millions of people who would pirate the game *and* the couple hundred thousand that would buy it too
I'm not even going to dignify this part with a response. Please don't resort to flame bait when answering my posts. Thank you.

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Seems a bit odd that all the rumors point towards AMD graphics parts being used in all the next generation consoles, yet Squeenix is optimizing this engine for nVidia hardware.
Yeah I think people are getting too comfortable with the rumors we've been getting, to the point some are convinced that the next gen consoles are going to have a Trinity APU. At this point, no one really knows anything.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:20 AM   #9
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One of the aspects of good optimization is that a game can look better OR it can run faster (or both);
Art assets are the expensive part. Art assets. Art assets. You can take code written by the hand of a god and it means nothing without the art assets to back it up.

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they don't want to spend "50 million" dollars on improving the graphics (where did you get that figure anyway?) they could always code the game more thoughtfully so that it doesn't run like balls like assassin's creed 3, which looks awful.
$50 million to develop a game with those levels of visuals is actually figuring on all of coding, level design, and actual 'game' development being free- and it is a conservative figure. The problem is in those extremely detailed models. Those take thousands of dollars *each* to make. A game with any sort of scope will be obscenely expensive to create with that level of detail. This is one of the reasons why I have been an extremely vocal supporter of significantly expanding physics capabilities, if we can use muscular layers of a basic IK frame to generate models we would save a *ton* on development resources(a generic example, foliage, cloth and many other things can be made far simpler on the development end at the cost of computing resources).

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Still costs money? That's their problem.
No, it is our problem. Want high end games focused on the PC as the primary platform? We need the sales numbers to justify that attention. When *we* don't provide the sales numbers the publishers have *no* problem making consoles the lead development platform and swimming in the truck loads of cash they make. To them, there is no problem.

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At the very least developers and publishers shouldn't complain and lie through their teeth about losing money on their PC ports when they spend peanuts to port them.
Check their financial reports. They go to jail if they lie on those.

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Please don't resort to flame bait when answering my posts.
Head in sand? That wasn't flame bait. That is reality. Don't believe me? Go check the sales figures for any non MMO PC game and then look at the amount of torrent traffic. As a community we need to buy more games if we want to see more effort placed into them. As it stands now, the few of us who are buying our games are in essence paying a welfare tax to the pirates. What I have a very hard time wrapping my head around is why people get offended when I bash on piracy. If everyone bought their PC games, the consoles would be an afterthought and PC gaming would be on top of the mountain and untouchable with tons of money being spent to advance the platform. Sadly, people pirate, and we get console scraps.

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Yeah I think people are getting too comfortable with the rumors we've been getting, to the point some are convinced that the next gen consoles are going to have a Trinity APU. At this point, no one really knows anything.
Watching the Luminous development progress has had this thought in the back of my head all along. Certain ways they are handling the tech they are using works extremely well on nV hardware but would choke on AMD's parts(they could adjust the way they did it and get comparable results on AMD hardware, but not using their current approach). With Squeenix being a console developer that has an occasional PC release, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for them to be focusing all of their efforts on nV hardware if they aren't going to be seeing any nV hardware for any of their main platforms.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:41 AM   #10
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Next gen consoles have AMD hardware, but games engines are optimized for Nvidia. BenSkywalker can't stand this.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:56 AM   #11
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BenSkywalker can't stand this.
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the largest console centric developer in the world outside of Nintendo is building their next gen engine around nVidia hardware if none of the consoles are going to use nVidia. I'm open to hear the reasons as to why this makes sense from anyone
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:40 AM   #12
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Doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the largest console centric developer in the world outside of Nintendo is building their next gen engine around nVidia hardware if none of the consoles are going to use nVidia. I'm open to hear the reasons as to why this makes sense from anyone
PC gaming.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:02 AM   #13
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Doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the largest console centric developer in the world outside of Nintendo is building their next gen engine around nVidia hardware if none of the consoles are going to use nVidia. I'm open to hear the reasons as to why this makes sense from anyone
NVidia's cheque book.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:21 AM   #14
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Doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the largest console centric developer in the world outside of Nintendo is building their next gen engine around nVidia hardware if none of the consoles are going to use nVidia. I'm open to hear the reasons as to why this makes sense from anyone
nVidia development tools are better. If you want to make a game that will run only on AMD platforms, the fastest way you can get the code done is still probably to work on an nVidia machine until you are feature complete, then fix up any problems that crop up when you switch over to AMD.

In a similar vein: Most game companies don't actually get paid any money for putting TWIMTP branding on their games. What they get instead is a hotline to nVidia's developer support, who are pretty much invaluable when debugging complex shader problems.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:46 AM   #15
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You're ... going to keep posting these walls of text like you do in other VCG threads ... with annoyingly obtuse counter arguments that go on forever ... Oh god there goes my peaceful evening. Christ.

Ok whatever.

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Art assets are the expensive part. Art assets. Art assets. You can take code written by the hand of a god and it means nothing without the art assets to back it up.
I mentioned a second option - that of leaving the visual fidelity as is, but optimizing the game code to run well. That is to say, NO extra money on art assets, just proper optimizations for the same graphics.



Quote:
$50 million to develop a game with those levels of visuals is actually figuring on all of coding, level design, and actual 'game' development being free- and it is a conservative figure. The problem is in those extremely detailed models. Those take thousands of dollars *each* to make. A game with any sort of scope will be obscenely expensive to create with that level of detail. This is one of the reasons why I have been an extremely vocal supporter of significantly expanding physics capabilities, if we can use muscular layers of a basic IK frame to generate models we would save a *ton* on development resources(a generic example, foliage, cloth and many other things can be made far simpler on the development end at the cost of computing resources).
That is a neat idea.



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No, it is our problem. Want high end games focused on the PC as the primary platform? We need the sales numbers to justify that attention. When *we* don't provide the sales numbers the publishers have *no* problem making consoles the lead development platform and swimming in the truck loads of cash they make. To them, there is no problem.
Awkay. Let's make this simpler and more informative. What exactly are those sales numbers that are so lacking? Show me reliable PC game sales statistics that include both digital and physical distribution. Vgchartz data doesn't count, in case you were tempted.



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Check their financial reports. They go to jail if they lie on those.
Publishers release separate performance figures for PC ports/exclusives? I would love to see that.

Also, let's not make light of the fact that you assumed that, for every millions of people who pirate, only hundreds of thousands pay for pc games - effectively putting the pirate to lawful costumer ratio at at least an order of magnitude. You're going to have to expand on that little gem and not simply overlook it and conveniently move to another argument. I don't want to be here all day.



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Head in sand? That wasn't flame bait. That is reality. Don't believe me? Go check the sales figures for any non MMO PC game and then look at the amount of torrent traffic. As a community we need to buy more games if we want to see more effort placed into them. As it stands now, the few of us who are buying our games are in essence paying a welfare tax to the pirates. What I have a very hard time wrapping my head around is why people get offended when I bash on piracy. If everyone bought their PC games, the consoles would be an afterthought and PC gaming would be on top of the mountain and untouchable with tons of money being spent to advance the platform. Sadly, people pirate, and we get console scraps.
Why don't you graciously teach us how you can extrapolate reliable figures on overall piracy on an individual game by looking at the seeders/leechers statistics of a torrent?

[/QUOTE]
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:02 AM   #16
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I mentioned a second option - that of leaving the visual fidelity as is, but optimizing the game code to run well. That is to say, NO extra money on art assets, just proper optimizations for the same graphics.
You are talking about isolated existing ports then? I was speaking in reference to more advanced engines, which is what I thought we were talking about? Particular issues with individual ports is something else entirely, not a topic I don't think is worth discussing, but not one I was talking about in this thread.

Quote:
Awkay. Let's make this simpler and more informative. What exactly are those sales numbers that are so lacking? Show me reliable PC game sales statistics that include both digital and physical distribution. Vgchartz data doesn't count, in case you were tempted.
http://investor.ea.com/financials.cfm
http://investor.activision.com/reports.cfm
https://www.ubisoftgroup.com/comsite...tcm9956562.pdf
http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/ir/index.html

Any others you are curious about?

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Publishers release separate performance figures for PC ports/exclusives? I would love to see that.
Yep.

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Also, let's not make light of the fact that you assumed that, for every millions of people who pirate, only hundreds of thousands pay for pc games - effectively putting the pirate to lawful costumer ratio at at least an order of magnitude. You're going to have to expand on that little gem and not simply overlook it and conveniently move to another argument. I don't want to be here all day.
A single day? Years of researching the topic. A single day you are only going to get a superficial glance at a snapshot. Trends over time, software versus hardware sales in sub segment breakdown, lots of differing variables to review in this.

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Why don't you graciously teach us how you can extrapolate reliable figures on overall piracy on an individual game by looking at the seeders/leechers statistics of a torrent?
Reliable, no. Minimum? Fairly easily

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nVidia development tools are better. If you want to make a game that will run only on AMD platforms, the fastest way you can get the code done is still probably to work on an nVidia machine until you are feature complete, then fix up any problems that crop up when you switch over to AMD.
NURBS feed to tessellation using AO for shadowing impact? Not saying you can't do it, but it seems like an *awful* lot of work to rebuild the engine to something that will work well on AMD cards.

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PC gaming.

Square Enix going hard into PC gaming, heh, that would certainly be extremely interesting. I would honestly love to see what they could do. Their cinematic presentation is beyond anything we ever get on the PC, what they could do with the resources available on a PC if it were used as their primary development platform would be amazing I'm sure

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Old 12-03-2012, 08:41 AM   #17
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Square Enix going hard into PC gaming, heh, that would certainly be extremely interesting. I would honestly love to see what they could do. Their cinematic presentation is beyond anything we ever get on the PC, what they could do with the resources available on a PC if it were used as their primary development platform would be amazing I'm sure
Agree.
Also, maybe we'd finally have japanese dub in the occident...
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:09 AM   #18
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Why the heck does it translate from english to afrikaans? Does it do that for anyone else? You aren't from South Africa or anything are you Slacker?
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:46 AM   #19
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Agree.
Also, maybe we'd finally have japanese dub in the occident...
Trust me - on the couch its fine and dandy to sit there & watch cinematics...but on a PC I can't stand it.

I JUST started ME3 and already feel that they started me off with too many cinematics
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:54 AM   #20
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You are talking about isolated existing ports then? I was speaking in reference to more advanced engines, which is what I thought we were talking about? Particular issues with individual ports is something else entirely, not a topic I don't think is worth discussing, but not one I was talking about in this thread.
I pointed out the obvious: That -in light of such an advanced demo as Agni's being able to run on a typical high end PC - devs must optimize their pc ports very poorly when many of them run worse but also look a lot worse than sqweenix's demo.

Given that, pc games could be made to look much better than they do now OR to run much faster without an upgrade in visuals - since you're not happy about the first option, I left you with the second. I ... really don't know how to explain my posts any simpler than that.
There are no sales numbers for PC titles in any of those PDFs, as I embarrassingly admit to have checked all of them when I already knew I wouldn't find anything.

So I have about 2 more hours before I turn into bed - do you think you can come up with more ways to waste my free time by then?



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A single day? Years of researching the topic. A single day you are only going to get a superficial glance at a snapshot. Trends over time, software versus hardware sales in sub segment breakdown, lots of differing variables to review in this.
I ... didn't ask for the numbers of pirated copies taking place in a single day .. nor have I suggested that in the entirety of my posts in the thread...

Were you confused with the phrase "I don't want to be here all day" ... as in you saw the word "day" and then ... oh god. Yep. That's definitely a brain tumor I'm feeling right now. Thanks.

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Reliable, no. Minimum? Fairly easily
I'm still waiting ....

..." "


[/QUOTE]
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:59 AM   #21
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These tech demos always look so nice, it's too bad they won't be spending that kind of time on all the details in a real game.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:01 AM   #22
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Trust me - on the couch its fine and dandy to sit there & watch cinematics...but on a PC I can't stand it.

I JUST started ME3 and already feel that they started me off with too many cinematics
Get a better chair.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:49 AM   #23
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Art assets are the expensive part. Art assets. Art assets. You can take code written by the hand of a god and it means nothing without the art assets to back it up.



$50 million to develop a game with those levels of visuals is actually figuring on all of coding, level design, and actual 'game' development being free- and it is a conservative figure. The problem is in those extremely detailed models. Those take thousands of dollars *each* to make. A game with any sort of scope will be obscenely expensive to create with that level of detail. This is one of the reasons why I have been an extremely vocal supporter of significantly expanding physics capabilities, if we can use muscular layers of a basic IK frame to generate models we would save a *ton* on development resources(a generic example, foliage, cloth and many other things can be made far simpler on the development end at the cost of computing resources).
Apoppin really liked what you said - see:
http://alienbabeltech.com/abt/viewto...=unread#p77709

Funny, I was talking about this just today too.. (but from an opposing standpoint that unique AAA games with lots of art would still be extremely expensive no matter what)
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:51 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by BenSkywalker View Post
Square Enix going hard into PC gaming, heh, that would certainly be extremely interesting. I would honestly love to see what they could do. Their cinematic presentation is beyond anything we ever get on the PC, what they could do with the resources available on a PC if it were used as their primary development platform would be amazing I'm sure
It is interesting to see how Square-Enix is pushing their PC variants of games like Sleeping Dogs and Tomb Raider. It seems that they're finally taking the platform seriously, and it's nice to see. Sure, people are still going to pirate the games, and arguably, it's easier to pirate on the PC. We all know how hard it is to quantify actual piracy "losses." Also, it's worthwhile to consider that maybe the PC just isn't a viable platform? Some people are fine with losing graphic quality and just playing on a console, but then you have people that love the benefits that a PC can provide when it comes to imagery.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:19 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by BenSkywalker View Post
Watching the Luminous development progress has had this thought in the back of my head all along. Certain ways they are handling the tech they are using works extremely well on nV hardware but would choke on AMD's parts(they could adjust the way they did it and get comparable results on AMD hardware, but not using their current approach). With Squeenix being a console developer that has an occasional PC release, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for them to be focusing all of their efforts on nV hardware if they aren't going to be seeing any nV hardware for any of their main platforms.
Sqeenix has actually recently published (maybe not directly developed, but published) a fair amount of games with an equal focus on PC as on consoles. Games like Deus Ex Human Revolution, Batman Arkham City, Sleeping Dogs, and Hitman Absolution. All of which support DirectX 11, and three of which are AMD Gaming Evolved titles, btw. None of them use anything like the Luminous engine, though.
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