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Old 12-01-2012, 08:10 PM   #51
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Insecure about your own moral superiority? Uno
Are you?

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The man was caught red handed dumping millions of classified documents and held a high security clearance; clearly he is a security risk.
Yeah there is strong evidence that he did that and it's very likely he'll be found guilty. But after he lost his freedom and access to computers with classified documents and was imprisoned, how exactly could he be a security threat whether or not he was in isolation or not.

They revoked his clearance and I seriously doubt he has knowledge of secrets other than what was smuggled off the the computer and they obviously invalidated the password(s) that he knew. So how would he be a threat?
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:51 AM   #52
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Are you?



Yeah there is strong evidence that he did that and it's very likely he'll be found guilty. But after he lost his freedom and access to computers with classified documents and was imprisoned, how exactly could he be a security threat whether or not he was in isolation or not.

They revoked his clearance and I seriously doubt he has knowledge of secrets other than what was smuggled off the the computer and they obviously invalidated the password(s) that he knew. So how would he be a threat?
He had information that he had seen and procedures that were followed.
Transferring that logistical information and data that he has remembered is a potential problem.

How he obtained access to such materials can be relevant; what loopholes were discovered and/or not exposed.
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:00 AM   #53
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If you weren't insecure, you wouldn't have felt the need to post:

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However I'd like to see what kinds of logical pretzels people can twist themselves into defending the firing on the people who came to help and the treatment of the people after they were injured or killed.
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Are you?
Me, I just don't think that self righteous posts demonstrate moral superiority.

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Old 12-02-2012, 10:25 AM   #54
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If you weren't insecure, you wouldn't have felt the need to post:





Me, I just don't think that self righteous posts demonstrate moral superiority.

Uno
No you just like to ignore the fact that the people rushing to the "armed" people aid didn't appear to be armed at all.

It also that the "armed" people who were initially fired upon in the gun camera recording turned out not to be armed all.
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:35 AM   #55
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How he obtained access to such materials can be relevant; what loopholes were discovered and/or not exposed.
It's simple he had more access to information than he "needed to know" as for the methods it was already covered he smuggled in blank CD-R's to record data onto.

They have recently in the past few years made it a policy to ban flash memory drives on military computers although if I recall correctly that policy wasn't in effect at the time Private Manning was stealing secrets.

Afaik, he was just a person with no real computer "hacking" skills who had too much access to the information.

Unless I'm incorrect in that any methods that he used to get the information out to wiki leaks could be circumvented by proper procedures in terms of making sure recordable media isn't brought near those computers and making sure they aren't on public networks.

In that case the isolation wasn't necessary.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:39 PM   #56
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BWAHAHAHA, wow, I didn't think they made them this naive anymore. Prison is not a rehab, it is a punishment that can be used to rehabilitate. The reality is that prisons are more akin to criminal universities.
Its not "more akin" that is exactly what prison is.

The question is, SHOULD prison be for rehab instead of punishment. Right now its meant as a punishment and as a result when they get out they are often simply better criminals. Is that what we really want? Thats also a reason I have always found it absurd to put people who have committed victimless crimes in jail. They go in as a petty criminal and come out with the knowledge and skills to be a real criminal. For some odd reason I don't see that as a good thing.
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:32 PM   #57
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There's the question of whether such confinement and negative effects amount to "cruel and unusual punishment" or perhaps we should just amend the Constitution to negate one of the original 10 Amendments otherwise known as the Bill of Rights
SCotUS has not ruled solitary confinement unconstitutional. And solitary confinement being called torture has not been widely accepted.
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:45 PM   #58
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SCotUS has not ruled solitary confinement unconstitutional. And solitary confinement being called torture has not been widely accepted.
I think it is cruel and treacherous because it negates the person's ability to defend them-self.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:11 PM   #59
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No you just like to ignore the fact that the people rushing to the "armed" people aid didn't appear to be armed at all.

It also that the "armed" people who were initially fired upon in the gun camera recording turned out not to be armed all.
After the fact is 20/20. Crew members saw what were looked like AK47s.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:11 PM   #60
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I think it is cruel and treacherous because it negates the person's ability to defend them-self.
It does not prevent/negate legal representation.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:14 PM   #61
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It's simple he had more access to information than he "needed to know" as for the methods it was already covered he smuggled in blank CD-R's to record data onto.

They have recently in the past few years made it a policy to ban flash memory drives on military computers although if I recall correctly that policy wasn't in effect at the time Private Manning was stealing secrets.

Afaik, he was just a person with no real computer "hacking" skills who had too much access to the information.

Unless I'm incorrect in that any methods that he used to get the information out to wiki leaks could be circumvented by proper procedures in terms of making sure recordable media isn't brought near those computers and making sure they aren't on public networks.

In that case the isolation wasn't necessary.
He was burning CDs. His NCO thought he was listening to Lady Gaga music on those CDs he was always putting in the computer. Why you'd led your junior soldier listen to music on a SIPR or JWICS machine is beyond me.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:16 PM   #62
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Its not "more akin" that is exactly what prison is.

The question is, SHOULD prison be for rehab instead of punishment. Right now its meant as a punishment and as a result when they get out they are often simply better criminals. Is that what we really want? Thats also a reason I have always found it absurd to put people who have committed victimless crimes in jail. They go in as a petty criminal and come out with the knowledge and skills to be a real criminal. For some odd reason I don't see that as a good thing.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:00 PM   #63
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No you just like to ignore the fact that the people rushing to the "armed" people aid didn't appear to be armed at all.

It also that the "armed" people who were initially fired upon in the gun camera recording turned out not to be armed all.

You recently discovered the phenomenon of collateral damage? And now, you are butt hurt because not everyone thinks that that discovery makes you morally superior?

Seriously, you need a clue.

So, here are two: John Walker and Jonathan Pollard.

Both of whom, like Bradley Manning, facilitated the release of large amounts of classified data. Both of whom, like Bradley Manning, remain incarcerated.

Though, Henry Kissinger and the state of Israel have worked hard to get Pollard released.

I understand that Private Manning has been depressed lately.

With supporters like Julian Assange and you, I think that that is understandable.

After all, your posts make it pretty clear that you are not working to get justice for Private Manning, you are working to make sure that everyone recognizes your moral superiority.

Best of luck with that.

Uno
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:10 PM   #64
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You recently discovered the phenomenon of collateral damage? And now, you are butt hurt because not everyone thinks that that discovery makes you morally superior?

Seriously, you need a clue.

So, here are two: John Walker and Jonathan Pollard.

Both of whom, like Bradley Manning, facilitated the release of large amounts of classified data. Both of whom, like Bradley Manning, remain incarcerated.

Though, Henry Kissinger and the state of Israel have worked hard to get Pollard released.

I understand that Private Manning has been depressed lately.

With supporters like Julian Assange and you, I think that that is understandable.

After all, your posts make it pretty clear that you are not working to get justice for Private Manning, you are working to make sure that everyone recognizes your moral superiority.

Best of luck with that.

Uno
I think at this point Assange could care less about Bradley. In fact he doesn't seem to be doing well after taking refuge in the Ecuadorean embassy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20537157

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Julian Assange, who is living at the Ecuadorean embassy in London, has a chronic lung infection "which could get worse at any moment", the country's ambassador to the UK has warned.

Ana Alban said the Wikileaks founder, who is fighting UK efforts to send him to Sweden, was suffering from living "in a confined space".

Ecuador previously sought assurances he would not be arrested if hospitalised.

The UK said then it would not prevent "any medical care that he requires".

The Australian, 41, who has taken refuge at the embassy since June, was granted asylum by Ecuador in August.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:00 PM   #65
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Careful , werepossum doesn't allow people to support Manning. He really can't argue the facts, so he probably will just accuse you of being gay and having a crush on him. Because that's about the limit of his ability to argue.

I'll just point out over a year ago, I posted about Manning's incredibly poor treatment, and all werepossum could argue is this:

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I think a bigger question would be why you are on this forum instead of writing Manning swooning letters or hanging around Leavenworth hoping o catch a glimpse of him.
He went on to further stick his foot in his mouth here:

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Just tweaking the messenger's nose actually; it's obvious that you have special feelings for him, how can pointing that out be an insult? (EDIT: Note that this is NOT necessarily homosexual attraction. You may merely identify with him and find him a role model, but obviously you have special feelings for him. I do not know and, luckily, I do not care.)
And several others all jumped on the "if you argue for Manning, you must be gay and have a crush on him", and of course, no mods complained about it either.

Somehow these people don't understand that he could care less about Manning personally, but that we care about the rule of law (as opposed to most posters here, who decide what treatment is OK based on how they feel about the accused).

Just shows how little cognitive ability they have to sink that low. Logical thinking is not a strong suit for the people that are authoritarians.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:03 PM   #66
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Careful , werepossum doesn't allow people to support Manning. He really can't argue the facts, so he probably will just accuse you of being gay and having a crush on him. Because that's about the limit of his ability to argue.

I'll just point out over a year ago, I posted about Manning's incredibly poor treatment, and all werepossum could argue is this:
Lol, you fucking troll.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:46 AM   #67
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Lol, you fucking troll.

LOL, care to comment on werepossum's posts instead of trolling?

Those are his exact words, do you think I am lying? LOL.

Once again, mono can't handle the facts.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:48 AM   #68
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LOL, care to comment on werepossum's posts instead of trolling?

Those are his exact words, do you think I am lying? LOL.

Once again, mono can't handle the facts.
You would be best off quoting the post; otherwise it is acting as a callout.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:00 AM   #69
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He deserves a fair and a swift trial, followed by a hanging.
I say blindfold + cigarette + firing squad. That's the traditional way of dealing with spies.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:57 PM   #70
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You would be best off quoting the post; otherwise it is acting as a callout.
Sure, unlike mono, I don't lie.

Here you go:

Link

Look at the last couple pages, you will find werepossums posts. Along with others all resorting to insulting me because they can't argue on facts.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:21 PM   #71
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After the fact is 20/20. Crew members saw what were looked like AK47s.
20/20 hindsight or not... it's still the same actions.

The people over there know we're blowing up innocent people already... letting the american public know about it is really a minor thing to be honest.

We've been over there creating terrorists so that we have somebody to fight.

You think people see their kids blow to pieces and praise god that america is over there fighting the good fight? Fuck no they don't. They pick up an ak or strap on explosives and join what to them is probably a righteous cause.


Given that we know the war in iraq was concocted w\ bullshit... all the innocent lives taken there are simply blood on our hands. It's not collateral damage, and suddenly it's ok. It's mass murder.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:21 PM   #72
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20/20 hindsight or not... it's still the same actions.

The people over there know we're blowing up innocent people already... letting the american public know about it is really a minor thing to be honest.

We've been over there creating terrorists so that we have somebody to fight.

You think people see their kids blow to pieces and praise god that america is over there fighting the good fight? Fuck no they don't. They pick up an ak or strap on explosives and join what to them is probably a righteous cause.


Given that we know the war in iraq was concocted w\ bullshit... all the innocent lives taken there are simply blood on our hands. It's not collateral damage, and suddenly it's ok. It's mass murder.
It's not like there was a policy of killing Iraqis. In war thing go wrong. Those involved in the incidents aren't brought up on charges since things like this happen in chaotic environments.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:53 PM   #73
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It's not like there was a policy of killing Iraqis. In war thing go wrong. Those involved in the incidents aren't brought up on charges since things like this happen in chaotic environments.
The case isn't about giving information to ' the enemy '.

It's about controlling information and keeping the average joe from seeing that his armed forces are maiming women and children in a foreign land where we've waged war w\ false pretense.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:09 PM   #74
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Careful , werepossum doesn't allow people to support Manning. He really can't argue the facts, so he probably will just accuse you of being gay and having a crush on him. Because that's about the limit of his ability to argue.

I'll just point out over a year ago, I posted about Manning's incredibly poor treatment, and all werepossum could argue is this:



He went on to further stick his foot in his mouth here:



And several others all jumped on the "if you argue for Manning, you must be gay and have a crush on him", and of course, no mods complained about it either.

Somehow these people don't understand that he could care less about Manning personally, but that we care about the rule of law (as opposed to most posters here, who decide what treatment is OK based on how they feel about the accused).

Just shows how little cognitive ability they have to sink that low. Logical thinking is not a strong suit for the people that are authoritarians.
The facts are not in question*; what is in question is whether Manning is a persecuted hero or whether he deserves his treatment. I contend that having been caught red-handed, and possessing classified knowledge and having already demonstrated a willingness to disseminate that classified knowledge to better punish the better men and women with whom he was unable to fit in, he certainly deserved solitary confine,ent under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, at least until the government could get a handle on how much damage he had done and how much he could still do. You contend that he is a victim of political persecution, a hero being mistreated under the law in spite of the fact that his case is under intense scrutiny and he has legions of pro bono lawyers watching the government's every move. You take your hero worship (or man crush, or whatever) and extrapolate that into malfeasance on the part of his jailers, but every facet of his imprisonment and prosecution has been adjudicated in excruciating detail and he's still in prison. Ergo the "rule of law" is not at issue, and no mods "jumped on it" because you are simply making muddied emotional pleas based on your own personal image of Manning as heroic whistle-blower.

*Other than the proggies insisting that Manning be allowed to finally have his day in court when he's in fact already had many days in court.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:17 PM   #75
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The case isn't about giving information to ' the enemy '.

It's about controlling information and keeping the average joe from seeing that his armed forces are maiming women and children in a foreign land where we've waged war w\ false pretense.
You know, before the media showed all the horrors of war to Joe and Jill Public back in the states, we actually won wars. Women and children get killed and maimed in war. I've waded onto a greyhound style bus that was blown apart by a ~1300lb car bomb in Kabul. It was on the way to a school, so it was literally full of women and children. Blood was running down the steps by the time we got to it. Moms were holding halves of kids. But it's my job to deal with that sort of thing and move on.

What the media has done is expose everyone back home to that sort of thing, and that's caused collateral damage to become more important than winning. And hey, if that's the case, which would be totally understandable, then stop the war and bring the troops home.
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