Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Social > Off Topic

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals with Free Stuff/Contests
· Black Friday 2014
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

View Poll Results: shooting justified?
yes 69 47.26%
no 77 52.74%
Voters: 146. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-27-2012, 07:08 PM   #176
spidey07
No Lifer
 
spidey07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 65,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishScott View Post
So you're saying if I enter your house lawfully, but then you eject me and I simply refuse to leave, making no other threat, you can lawfully shoot me?

I'd love to see the state law that says that. If so, it means I could lure a dozen people into my house, kill them all and say "hey, they were here unlawfully!" and get off scott free. Pretty sure castle doctrine doesn't work that way.
Then you would not be in my house unlawfully initially. If you did not leave, I could threaten you with a weapon to make you leave as you are now trespassing (this is specifically covered in my state's laws).

god I love my state.
__________________
___
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
spidey07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 07:59 PM   #177
Elganja
Golden Member
 
Elganja's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Northen VA
Posts: 1,851
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotteq View Post
You do not have the right to execute someone who is not posing a threat to you. You shoot after they stop attacking, it's murder.
and how do you know they no longer pose a threat? wait and see if they attack you and potentially cause you harm?

if an intruder enters your home, I have zero qualms if the homeowner kills the intruder to ensure his safety... if you don't kill the intruder your aren't 100% safe IMHO.
__________________
2014 Pearl White Nissan GTR Black Edition (Stock Turbo FBO), Baker Performance Built, Ben Linney Tuned
--9.857 @ 138.63mph on e85
--10.025 @ 135.12mph on 93 Octane (All Time World Record Holder)
2007 Creme Brulee Ford Edge
i7 990x @ 4.5GHz on water
Elganja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:09 PM   #178
RampantAndroid
Diamond Member
 
RampantAndroid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishScott View Post
So you're saying if I enter your house lawfully, but then you eject me and I simply refuse to leave, making no other threat, you can lawfully shoot me?

I'd love to see the state law that says that. If so, it means I could lure a dozen people into my house, kill them all and say "hey, they were here unlawfully!" and get off scott free. Pretty sure castle doctrine doesn't work that way.
No. If you entered lawfully, that's fine. I then say "get out" and am NOT in fear for my life, there's no way I can shoot. The key here is reasonably fear for my life, or other's lives. If I let you in, and then you tell me "I like to kill people and eat their brains with fava beans and a nice Chianti. Do you have any Chianti on hand?" then I might well be in fear for my life. (forgetting that I'd have to prove you said it) and I ask you to leave, you don't...I'm in fear for my life, I can shoot.

A more simple example being, I let you in. You pull a knife out and threaten me with it. I'm in fear for my life, I can defend with lethal force (in WA, I can.) I cannot just decide I'm done with you and say "get out or I'll kill ya." In the case where you refuse to leave, and just sit there...that's an issue for the police to deal with. If they deem force to be needed, let them do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
Then you would not be in my house unlawfully initially. If you did not leave, I could threaten you with a weapon to make you leave as you are now trespassing (this is specifically covered in my state's laws).

god I love my state.
Uhh...threaten, perhaps. Fire? Not without being in fear for your life.
__________________
Someone apparently went up to the great philosopher Wittgenstein and said "What a lot of morons people back in the Middle Ages must have been to have looked, every morning, at the dawn and to have thought what they were seeing was the Sun going around the Earth, when every school kid knows that the Earth goes around the Sun", to which Wittgenstein replied "Yeah, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the Sun had been going around the Earth?"

Last edited by RampantAndroid; 11-27-2012 at 08:25 PM.
RampantAndroid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:30 PM   #179
spidey07
No Lifer
 
spidey07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 65,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RampantAndroid View Post
No. If you entered lawfully, that's fine. I then say "get out" and am NOT in fear for my life, there's no way I can shoot. The key here is reasonably fear for my life, or other's lives. If I let you in, and then you tell me "I like to kill people and eat their brains with fava beans and a nice Chianti. Do you have any Chianti on hand?" then I might well be in fear for my life. (forgetting that I'd have to prove you said it) and I ask you to leave, you don't...I'm in fear for my life, I can shoot.

A more simple example being, I let you in. You pull a knife out and threaten me with it. I'm in fear for my life, I can defend with lethal force (in WA, I can.) I cannot just decide I'm done with you and say "get out or I'll kill ya." In the case where you refuse to leave, and just sit there...that's an issue for the police to deal with. If they deem force to be needed, let them do it.



Uhh...threaten, perhaps. Fire? Not without being in fear for your life.
Trespassing is specifically covered in my state's laws. I can announce and threaten with a weapon and if you do not leave, I can shoot.
__________________
___
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
spidey07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:31 PM   #180
RampantAndroid
Diamond Member
 
RampantAndroid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
Trespassing is specifically covered in my state's laws. I can announce and threaten with a weapon and if you do not leave, I can shoot.
What state?
__________________
Someone apparently went up to the great philosopher Wittgenstein and said "What a lot of morons people back in the Middle Ages must have been to have looked, every morning, at the dawn and to have thought what they were seeing was the Sun going around the Earth, when every school kid knows that the Earth goes around the Sun", to which Wittgenstein replied "Yeah, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the Sun had been going around the Earth?"
RampantAndroid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:33 PM   #181
soundforbjt
Diamond Member
 
soundforbjt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: In an office
Posts: 6,940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RampantAndroid View Post
What state?
Spidey's from a mostly redneck red state...Kentucky
__________________
"Soitenly, if at first you don't succeed, keep on suckin' till you do succeed." - Curly Howard


The Heat 106-0-0
soundforbjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:33 PM   #182
spidey07
No Lifer
 
spidey07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 65,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RampantAndroid View Post
What state?
Kentucky - 503.080

This is all covered in Kentucky CCDW classes.

Quote:
503.080 Protection of property.
(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary to prevent:
(a) The commission of criminal trespass, robbery, burglary, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, in a dwelling, building or upon real property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts; or
(b) Theft, criminal mischief, or any trespassory taking of tangible, movable property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts.
__________________
___
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Last edited by spidey07; 11-27-2012 at 08:37 PM.
spidey07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:36 PM   #183
Scotteq
Diamond Member
 
Scotteq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: New Jersey (USA)
Posts: 5,278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
Not in my state. I've posted the laws about presumption of threat. Being in my house unlawfully = automatic threat by law.
Enjoy your free 3 Squares and Buttsex for your 10 to 20.
Scotteq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:38 PM   #184
spidey07
No Lifer
 
spidey07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 65,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotteq View Post
Enjoy your free 3 Squares and Buttsex for your 10 to 20.
I already posted the law for you to read about presumption of threat.

Your understanding of my state's laws are very different than your understanding of yours.

Again...all of this is covered, scenario, by scenario in CCDW classes in my state. Not that it matters when it comes to castle doctrine in MY state. We don't take kindly to trespassing, attempted arson or kidnapping as these are codified into law in MY state as OK to shoot.

You're from NJ, you're understanding of my state's laws is very poor. I've posted them for you. In your state? Yeah, you'd be going to jail. In my state? Nope.
__________________
___
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Last edited by spidey07; 11-27-2012 at 08:42 PM.
spidey07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:40 PM   #185
RampantAndroid
Diamond Member
 
RampantAndroid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
Kentucky - 503.080

This is all covered in Kentucky CCDW classes.
That says force, and in law force and deadly force are two very different things.

You should NEVER be allowed to use lethal force when someone just walks in and sits on your lawn doing nothing. Lethal force should be reserved for when you are in fear for your life, or the lives of other innocents. That is to say, if someone breaks in...that's a good reason to shoot. Just because they sat on your lawn and didn't leave...that shit don't fly in my book. I'm ALL FOR DEADLY FORCE BEING LAWFUL....in proper scenarios. In WA, I think we have a good set of laws...and it's all based around fear for life.

EDIT: Should have researched before even responding to you. I was dead on. What you posted doesn't pertain to lethal force. Read the rest of 503.080:

Quote:
The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable
under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that the person against whom
such force is used is:
(a) Attempting to dispossess him of his dwelling otherwise than under a claim of
right to its possession; or
(b) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, or other felony
involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to
KRS 503.055, of such dwelling; or
(c) Committing or attempting to commit arson of a dwelling or other building in
his possession.
(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she
has a right to be.
__________________
Someone apparently went up to the great philosopher Wittgenstein and said "What a lot of morons people back in the Middle Ages must have been to have looked, every morning, at the dawn and to have thought what they were seeing was the Sun going around the Earth, when every school kid knows that the Earth goes around the Sun", to which Wittgenstein replied "Yeah, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the Sun had been going around the Earth?"

Last edited by RampantAndroid; 11-27-2012 at 08:42 PM.
RampantAndroid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:45 PM   #186
Scotteq
Diamond Member
 
Scotteq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: New Jersey (USA)
Posts: 5,278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
I already posted the law for you to read about presumption of threat.
< shrug > You absolutely may claim Castle Doctrine as your affirmative defense when you get to your trial. But shooting people (in the back, in your example) who aren't a threat is still manslaughter at the very least.

3 squares and all you can take.
Scotteq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:48 PM   #187
RampantAndroid
Diamond Member
 
RampantAndroid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotteq View Post
< shrug > You absolutely may claim Castle Doctrine as your affirmative defense when you get to your trial. But shooting people (in the back, in your example) who aren't a threat is still manslaughter at the very least.

3 squares and all you can take.
This. I can see where laws about shooting burglars comes from. Hell, I can kinda almost agree with them, since I'd love to see the day where theft results in potential death - either theft will go down, or the burglars will just get better armed...and I'd bet on the former.

Regardless, you cannot shoot someone just because they're there.
__________________
Someone apparently went up to the great philosopher Wittgenstein and said "What a lot of morons people back in the Middle Ages must have been to have looked, every morning, at the dawn and to have thought what they were seeing was the Sun going around the Earth, when every school kid knows that the Earth goes around the Sun", to which Wittgenstein replied "Yeah, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the Sun had been going around the Earth?"
RampantAndroid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:49 PM   #188
spidey07
No Lifer
 
spidey07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 65,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotteq View Post
< shrug > You absolutely may claim Castle Doctrine as your affirmative defense when you get to your trial. But shooting people (in the back, in your example) who aren't a threat is still manslaughter at the very least.

3 squares and all you can take.
You ignore the lawful presumption of threat to life as codified in my states laws.

You are wrong. In my state and many others. Also depending on state is not an affirmative defense.
__________________
___
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
spidey07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:55 PM   #189
soundforbjt
Diamond Member
 
soundforbjt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: In an office
Posts: 6,940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
Kentucky - 503.080

This is all covered in Kentucky CCDW classes.
Where does it say deadly force? I see physical force, but not deadly force.

edit: Rampant beat me to it.
__________________
"Soitenly, if at first you don't succeed, keep on suckin' till you do succeed." - Curly Howard


The Heat 106-0-0
soundforbjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:55 PM   #190
Scotteq
Diamond Member
 
Scotteq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: New Jersey (USA)
Posts: 5,278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
You ignore the lawful presumption of threat to life as codified in my states laws.

You are wrong. In my state and many others. Also depending on state is not an affirmative defense.

LIke I said - You're entitled....


For your sake, I hope you never have cause to learn how it really works.
Scotteq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:55 PM   #191
spidey07
No Lifer
 
spidey07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 65,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RampantAndroid View Post
This. I can see where laws about shooting burglars comes from. Hell, I can kinda almost agree with them, since I'd love to see the day where theft results in potential death - either theft will go down, or the burglars will just get better armed...and I'd bet on the former.

Regardless, you cannot shoot someone just because they're there.
If they are there unlawfully, absolutely I can. If they entered or attempted to enter the threshold unlawfully, absolutely I can.

Again, this is all covered by my states CCDW classes and explained in detail.

My state's laws aren't yours. I understand mine.
__________________
___
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
spidey07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:56 PM   #192
Number1
Diamond Member
 
Number1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posts: 7,129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pr0d1gy View Post
In America we don't put people in jail for killing people that break into out houses. I feel bad for these kids and their families but they devalued their own lives when they decided to enter a stranger's house without permission. This is really a sad case all around, but the old man was well within his rights to not only shoot them but also to kill them. Even with them shot his safety was is serious question. What if he went to call the police and the girl got up stabbed him in the back? I'm sorry guys, I want to feel sympathy for the suspects, but he did nothing illegal.
Thsi is demented. He had every right to neutralize the threat. Anything extra is just plain murder.

Have you seen this video?
Pharmacist shoot burgler

The Pharmacist is now a convicted murderer.
__________________
Intel Core i5 2500K @ 4200, MSI P67A-G43 (B3) P67 ATX LGA1155, Mushkin Enhanced Silverline Stiletto 8GB 2X4GB PC3-10666 DDR3-1333 9-9-9-24 Dual Channel Memory Kit, 5450 Radeon 500M X 2, 4TB storage, 600W OCZ GameXtream, Windows 7 HP 64, Samsung Syncmaster2463uw, Audio password Audio
Number1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 09:18 PM   #193
RampantAndroid
Diamond Member
 
RampantAndroid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
If they are there unlawfully, absolutely I can. If they entered or attempted to enter the threshold unlawfully, absolutely I can.

Again, this is all covered by my states CCDW classes and explained in detail.

My state's laws aren't yours. I understand mine.
Not by trespassing alone you cannot. You're ignoring the above post where I pointed out the remainder of 503.080 which DOES pertain to when lethal force becomes lawful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
You ignore the lawful presumption of threat to life as codified in my states laws.

You are wrong. In my state and many others. Also depending on state is not an affirmative defense.
Sure, if you can demonstrate that you felt threatened by them trespassing, sure. But if it's someone in your back yard chasing their dog that got off it's leash, you cannot demonstrate fear for your life by that alone. Especially if you have to grab your gun, open your door and shoot 100 feet to get them. But from what I read of KY's laws you cannot simply state that someone's presence alone, especially in the mentioned scenario where you invite someone in, and then ask them to leave, is enough to put you in fear for your life. Being paranoid is not an excuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundforbjt View Post
Where does it say deadly force? I see physical force, but not deadly force.

edit: Rampant beat me to it.
Exactly. Lethal force in KY is allowed in certain cases. I DO NOT see "he's in my yard doing nothing" in the list of lawful reasons to use lethal force.
__________________
Someone apparently went up to the great philosopher Wittgenstein and said "What a lot of morons people back in the Middle Ages must have been to have looked, every morning, at the dawn and to have thought what they were seeing was the Sun going around the Earth, when every school kid knows that the Earth goes around the Sun", to which Wittgenstein replied "Yeah, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the Sun had been going around the Earth?"

Last edited by RampantAndroid; 11-27-2012 at 09:22 PM.
RampantAndroid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 09:36 PM   #194
spidey07
No Lifer
 
spidey07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 65,450
Default

I know my states laws. You guys are coming up with "what if"

My knowledge of my states law will dictate what I do.

I see you're trying to divert the presumption of threat by being in home unlawfully and have now moved outside the threshold.

Big difference. Big diversion.
__________________
___
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Last edited by spidey07; 11-27-2012 at 09:38 PM.
spidey07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 09:37 PM   #195
RampantAndroid
Diamond Member
 
RampantAndroid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
I know my states laws. You guys are coming up with "what if"

My knowledge of my states law will dictate what I do.
...[insert jackie chan wth photo here]

I posted the laws of your state, you are wrong. I hope you never have to learn this in court, not for your well being, but for the well being of the poor sod you will have killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
Then you would not be in my house unlawfully initially. If you did not leave, I could threaten you with a weapon to make you leave as you are now trespassing (this is specifically covered in my state's laws).

god I love my state.
Produce the exact section of KY law covering this. Because you have not.
__________________
Someone apparently went up to the great philosopher Wittgenstein and said "What a lot of morons people back in the Middle Ages must have been to have looked, every morning, at the dawn and to have thought what they were seeing was the Sun going around the Earth, when every school kid knows that the Earth goes around the Sun", to which Wittgenstein replied "Yeah, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the Sun had been going around the Earth?"

Last edited by RampantAndroid; 11-27-2012 at 09:42 PM.
RampantAndroid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 09:41 PM   #196
OutHouse
Lifer
 
OutHouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 30,257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spidey07 View Post
Kentucky - 503.080

This is all covered in Kentucky CCDW classes.

503.080 Protection of property.
(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary to prevent:
(a) The commission of criminal trespass, robbery, burglary, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, in a dwelling, building or upon real property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts; or
(b) Theft, criminal mischief, or any trespassory taking of tangible, movable property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts.
dude do you know the difference between physical force and deadly force? in the eyes of the law they are entirely different animals. also subsection B specifically states while taking IE stealing. it does not say you can shoot them just because they are trespassing and refuse to leave.

edit: damn beaten by rampant
__________________
20 years ago, we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs. Please donít let Kevin Bacon die.Ē Bill Murray

"Going to McDonalds for a salad is like asking a prostitute for a hug." Sean Fallon

my post are being monitored by a STALKER!

Last edited by OutHouse; 11-27-2012 at 09:45 PM.
OutHouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 09:50 PM   #197
OutHouse
Lifer
 
OutHouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 30,257
Default

for the OP, yes the guy should do time. he went way over what self defense is all about. especially deliberately placing a gun under the chicks chin and firing the last fatal shot oh and after he had already shot her 6 times.
__________________
20 years ago, we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs. Please donít let Kevin Bacon die.Ē Bill Murray

"Going to McDonalds for a salad is like asking a prostitute for a hug." Sean Fallon

my post are being monitored by a STALKER!
OutHouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 10:00 PM   #198
spidey07
No Lifer
 
spidey07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 65,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RampantAndroid View Post
...[insert jackie chan wth photo here]

I posted the laws of your state, you are wrong. I hope you never have to learn this in court, not for your well being, but for the well being of the poor sod you will have killed.



Produce the exact section of KY law covering this. Because you have not.
Yes I have. Once I order you to leave and you do not I can draw.

That's use of force and allowed. If you do not leave, you are now unlawfully in my home. This exact scenario is covered in my state. If you so much as flinch or threaten I can shoot.

Hot states laws are very different than mine.
__________________
___
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
spidey07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 10:33 PM   #199
DixyCrat
Diamond Member
 
DixyCrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,566
Default

Having the racist spidey on ignore isn't of any value if you keep quoting him.
__________________
The fundamental ethos of Christianity is tolerance, turning the other cheek, caring for those in need, etc., but that is not what today's Christianity is about. We can say we're about loving our neighbor until we're blue in the face, but unless our actions start matching our words, it's meaningless.
DixyCrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 10:37 PM   #200
Jadow
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Upper Midwest - USA
Posts: 5,804
Default

if i was on the jury, i'd never convict
Jadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.