is it just me, or does it seem like maybe our two campaigns in the middle east...

[Juror No. 8]

This thread is a case study in the failure of the Government Truther Movement. They demand evidence from those who question the government's conspiracy theory, but can't provide any evidence of their own.

It's really just another form of religion.

[Nebor]

Why is the government so effective at keeping the truth about 9/11 concealed and so ineffective at concealing every other secret they've ever tried to keep?

[Capt Caveman]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

This thread is a case study in the failure of the Government Truther Movement. They demand evidence from those who question the government's conspiracy theory, but can't provide any evidence of their own.

It's really just another form of religion.

Actually, there is no such thing but keep on providing zero evidence to keep your trolling going. Evidence? You have thousands of pages of reports while you have nothing.

I'm guessing you're still in high school b/c you wouldn't pass a college class with your retarded logic.

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by Nebor

Why is the government so effective at keeping the truth about 9/11 concealed and so ineffective at concealing every other secret they've ever tried to keep?

Every other secret? You mean, all those thousands of documents and military operations the government has somehow managed to classify and keep secret from the public for many decades?

LOL.

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by Capt Caveman

Actually, there is no such thing but keep on providing zero evidence to keep your trolling going. Evidence? You have thousands of pages of reports while you have nothing.

You mean, thousands of pages of government reports? You mean, the same government that should have been a primary suspect?

Yeah, those "reports" are credible! LOL!

[PingviN]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

I claim foul on all your evidence while providing no evidence of my own. Because I do not acknowledge your proof and still lack proof myself, my conspiracy-claim is still intact.

FTFY

I think you massively overrate your governments ability to cover up such a gigantic event. Not a single email, printed paper, witness or anything to support your theory. Nothing whatsoever.

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by PingviN

I think you massively overrate your governments ability to cover up such a gigantic event. Not a single email, printed paper, witness or anything to support your theory. Nothing whatsoever.

It's not that hard to cover something up when you control all the investigations, government resources, and hold the purse strings. The government has a long history of successfully covering stuff up. For instance, the government managed to cover up the Manhattan Project, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, MK-ULTRA, COINTELPRO, Operation Northwoods, and Project SHAD/112 for a good number of years. Some of these were big, high-budget operations that involved hundreds of people who managed to stay silent long enough for the operation to reach completion.

Sorry, but your belief system doesn't reflect reality.

[eskimospy]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

Sorry, but this isn't a court of law, it's the court of public opinion. If you can't prove the legitimacy of Al-Qaeda as an independent terrorist organization, then you can't prove the legitimacy of your conspiracy theory.

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger.

Hahaha, so your response to us revealing that you have no evidence to back your opinion up is just to declare that you don't need evidence.

Do you realize how stupid you sound?

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by eskimospy

Hahaha, so your response to us revealing that you have no evidence to back your opinion up is just to declare that you don't need evidence.

Do you realize how stupid you sound?

Hahaha, so your response to my revealing you have no evidence to back your opinion up is just to keep asking me for evidence?

Do you realize how stupid you sound?

LOL!

[PingviN]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

It's not that hard to cover something up when you control all the investigations, government resources, and hold the purse strings. The government has a long history of successfully covering stuff up. For instance, the government managed to cover up the Manhattan Project, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, MK-ULTRA, COINTELPRO, Operation Northwoods, and Project SHAD/112 for a good number of years. Some of these were big, high-budget operations that involved hundreds of people who managed to stay silent long enough for the operation to reach completion.

Sorry, but your belief system doesn't reflect reality.

Successfully killing 3000 american nationals and bringing down two of the worlds greatest skyscrapers? Yeah, no... I'm not saying governments are unable to keep anything secret, but you need to realize the scale of things here. You don't. And you have no proof.

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by PingviN

Successfully killing 3000 american nationals and bringing down two of the worlds greatest skyscrapers? Yeah, no... I'm not saying governments are unable to keep anything secret, but you need to realize the scale of things here. You don't. And you have no proof.

Why would such an operation, assuming 9/11 was a government false flag, require such great scale? Think about it. As it is, you already believe that it only took 19 amateurs to carry out the operational part of the attack, a few planners, and some logistical and financial support. What if the reality of 9/11 is exactly what you currently believe it is, except Al-Qaeda was working under the auspices of the CIA with full Pentagon (Joint Chiefs) and U.S. government (Bush administration) acquiescence? What if all Al-Qaeda's funding, which you currently believe came from Muslim sources, was actually only being funneled through Muslim sources, with its real origins being the CIA's "black budget"?

I realize your response will always be, "but you have no proof for this theory". But then, that same response applies to the theory you believe in. What proof do you really have that Al-Qaeda is a legitimate terrorist organization that was organically created by real America-hating terrorists? How do you really know it is not just a state-sponsored front for fake terrorism, used to provide the excuse needed to meddle in and invade countries in that particular region? How do you know 9/11 wasn't drawn up at the Pentagon, just as Operation Northwoods was?

The point is, you don't know, and neither do I. Your conspiracy theory is no more proven or valid than my own.

[PingviN]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

The point is, you don't know, and neither do I. Your conspiracy theory is no more proven or valid than my own.

Occam's Razor, pal.

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

I realize your response will always be, "but you have no proof for this theory". But then, that same response applies to the theory you believe in. What proof do you really have that Al-Qaeda is a legitimate terrorist organization that was organically created by real America-hating terrorists? How do you really know it is not just a state-sponsored front for fake terrorism, used to provide the excuse needed to meddle in and invade countries in that particular region? How do you know 9/11 wasn't drawn up at the Pentagon, just as Operation Northwoods was?

First, we know that al-Qaeda is a legitimate terrorist organization because of history. Their existance has been documented by intelligence agencies around the world since the early-90s. If the US funded al-Qaeda other intelligence agencies would have uncovered it eventually and we'd have heard about it by now. Also, since AQ has been documented since the early-90s, this grand plan of yours would require that AQ has been funded since that time; all so eventually some as yet unknown, high-placed government officials could eventually pull off a false flag attack with the scope and scale of 9/11.

If you don't recognize how ridiculous that sounds then you haven't thought your argument through very thoroughly (which was obvious quite a while back).

The point is, you don't know, and neither do I. Your conspiracy theory is no more proven or valid than my own.

My theory has plenty of evidence. Maybe it hasn't hit you yet, but you waving your hands and magically trying to make all the current evidence disappear is one of the more idiotic things a truther has attempted in here, and idiotic-things-said-by-truthers is a VERY low bar in P&N.

[Capt Caveman]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

Why would such an operation, assuming 9/11 was a government false flag, require such great scale? Think about it. As it is, you already believe that it only took 19 amateurs to carry out the operational part of the attack, a few planners, and some logistical and financial support. What if the reality of 9/11 is exactly what you currently believe it is, except Al-Qaeda was working under the auspices of the CIA with full Pentagon (Joint Chiefs) and U.S. government (Bush administration) acquiescence? What if all Al-Qaeda's funding, which you currently believe came from Muslim sources, was actually only being funneled through Muslim sources, with its real origins being the CIA's "black budget"?

I realize your response will always be, "but you have no proof for this theory". But then, that same response applies to the theory you believe in. What proof do you really have that Al-Qaeda is a legitimate terrorist organization that was organically created by real America-hating terrorists? How do you really know it is not just a state-sponsored front for fake terrorism, used to provide the excuse needed to meddle in and invade countries in that particular region? How do you know 9/11 wasn't drawn up at the Pentagon, just as Operation Northwoods was?

The point is, you don't know, and neither do I. Your conspiracy theory is no more proven or valid than my own.

High schooler. Too funny.

At least the OP realized he was an idiot and hasn't posted in the thread anymore.

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by PingviN

Occam's Razor, pal.

Whoever said Occam's razor was on your side? The most complex, implausible explanation for 9/11 is the one you believe in, where 19 Muslim goat herders and same cavemen masterminds in Afghanistan fooled the CIA, FBI, NSA, Pentagon, and the rest of the U.S. government in pulling off greatest crime in U.S. history.

Nobody with half a brain actually believes that story, let alone finds it plausible.

[eskimospy]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

Hahaha, so your response to my revealing you have no evidence to back your opinion up is just to keep asking me for evidence?

Do you realize how stupid you sound?

LOL!

You just don't understand how evidence works. This is getting really sad.

You've shit your pants in this thread and you font even realize it. Even if what you were saying was right your method of argument is so hilariously bad that no educated or intelligent person would accept it.

Go crack a few books and get back to us.

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by TastesLikeChicken

First, we know that al-Qaeda is a legitimate terrorist organization because of history. Their existance has been documented by intelligence agencies around the world since the early-90s.

That doesn't necessarily mean it is legitimate. Intelligence agencies get stuff wrong all the time.

If the US funded al-Qaeda other intelligence agencies would have uncovered it eventually and we'd have heard about it by now.

What makes you think other intelligence agencies would have uncovered? After all, you believe our own intelligence agency wasn't able to uncover the 9/11 terror plot. I also assume you believe other intelligence agencies around the world also failed to uncover the 9/11 plot.

So, if intelligence agencies couldn't uncover 9/11 and defend against it, why would you assume those same intelligence agencies would be able to uncover a state-sponsored terrorist network?

Also, since AQ has been documented since the early-90s, this grand plan of yours would require that AQ has been funded since that time; all so eventually some as yet unknown, high-placed government officials could eventually pull off a false flag attack with the scope and scale of 9/11.

Indeed. This could have easily spanned multiple administrations, much like other secret operations have in the past.

Supposedly democratic nations aren't allowed to go around starting wars and invading poor countries full of brown people without just cause. It's just not done. If you don't have just cause, you have to create it. That's where Al-Qaeda's creation comes in. If you can covertly fund a terrorist network and get it to carry out terror attacks in select regions around the world, you then have just cause to respond militarily. Once you have just cause to respond militarily, you don't need a whole lot more to claim a certain government was involved or that you need to occupy the country for a decade to bring it "freedom" and "democracy".

Rinse and repeat, as many times as necessary.

If you don't recognize how ridiculous that sounds then you haven't thought your argument through very thoroughly (which was obvious quite a while back).

You've had ample opportunity to explain why this is so ridiculous, yet you can't seem to do it. Your personal incredulity is not a proper replacement for a rational argument, either.

My theory has plenty of evidence.

Not really. None of it is independently verifiable. It's all based on what various government agencies claim.

Maybe it hasn't hit you yet, but you waving your hands and magically trying to make all the current evidence disappear is one of the more idiotic things a truther has attempted in here, and idiotic-things-said-by-truthers is a VERY low bar in P&N.

Again, you don't have any evidence. All you have is what the government says, and if it's not the government, it's what Al-Qaeda says, and who the hell really knows who Al-Qaeda truly represents. For all you know, they work for the CIA.

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by eskimospy

You just don't understand how evidence works. This is getting really sad.

You've shit your pants in this thread and you font even realize it. Even if what you were saying was right your method of argument is so hilariously bad that no educated or intelligent person would accept it.

Go crack a few books and get back to us.

LOL. If I truly shit my pants in this thread, you guys would have ducked out long ago. After all, no rational person will suffer an irrational person for very long before giving up.

I know the real reason you're still here. Do you?

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

That doesn't necessarily mean it is legitimate. Intelligence agencies get stuff wrong all the time.

In this case it is your problem to prove that all those intelligence agencies got it wrong. YOU are the one coming up with the claim, a rather extraordinary one, that the US government funded al Qaeda. So provide some actual, verifiable proof that goes beyond 'some guy once worked in some agency'. Until you do everything coming from you is nothing but gaseous output.

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

LOL. If I truly shit my pants in this thread, you guys would have ducked out long ago. After all, no rational person will suffer an irrational person for very long before giving up.

I know the real reason you're still here. Do you?

P&N endlessly enjoys someone walking around with a huge load in the back of their pants. You are being paraded around and don't even seem to realize it.

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by TastesLikeChicken

In this case it is your problem to prove that all those intelligence agencies got it wrong. YOU are the one coming up with the claim, a rather extraordinary one, that the US government funded al Qaeda. So provide some actual, verifiable proof that goes beyond 'some guy once worked in some agency'. Until you do everything coming from you is nothing but gaseous output.

Likewise, the same goes for you. Your belief in the official 9/11 conspiracy theory rests upon the assumption that Al-Qaeda was and still is a legitimate, independent, organically created terrorist network without any ties to a major Western state sponsor, like the U.S. government. And since no intelligence agencies, like the CIA, have admitted complicity of any kind, you believe there was no complicity.

So, what specific evidence is this belief based on? Walk me through it step by step.

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by TastesLikeChicken

P&N endlessly enjoys someone walking around with a huge load in the back of their pants. You are being paraded around and don't even seem to realize it.

I know you'd like to believe this, but you've utterly failed to make any headway in distinguishing the difference between my belief in my proposed 9/11 conspiracy theory and your belief in your - the government's - 9/11 conspiracy theory. To avoid addressing this little problem, you keep demanding that I provide evidence for mine while ignoring the fact that your evidence has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

I suspect none of you are used to dealing with someone who won't accept the, "but, but, but the government and Al-Qaeda says so" argument.

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

So, what specific evidence is this belief based on? Walk me through it step by step.

I already explained it to you, an explanation that you sidestepped.

If your theory is correct the "government" (whoever that really is) would have to have been funding AQ since the early 90s in order to continue your alleged charade up until 9/11. Yet you can't provide the first bit of evidence to support that charade.

There is no step-by-step process. Your theory can't even get past the first step.

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally Posted by Juror No. 8

I know you'd like to believe this, but you've utterly failed to make any headway in distinguishing the difference between my belief in my proposed 9/11 conspiracy theory and your belief in your - the government's - 9/11 conspiracy theory. To avoid addressing this little problem, you keep demanding that I provide evidence for mine while ignoring the fact that your evidence has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

I suspect none of you are used to dealing with someone who won't accept the, "but, but, but the government and Al-Qaeda says so" argument.

Keep telling all of the above to yourself. It's how truthers maintain their self-image while being laughed at by everyone else who can think rationally.

[Juror No. 8]

Originally Posted by TastesLikeChicken

I already explained it to you, an explanation that you sidestepped.

If your theory is correct the "government" (whoever that really is) would have to have been funding AQ since the early 90s in order to continue your alleged charade up until 9/11. Yet you can't provide the first bit of evidence to support that charade.

There is no step-by-step process. Your theory can't even get past the first step.

Let me see if I have this right.

Your belief in the official 9/11 conspiracy theory handed down by the U.S. government is based on nothing more than the lack of evidence for the government being involved in any way? The same government that CONTROLLED THE INVESTIGATIONS into the attacks, thereby giving them control over what evidence was allowed to reach the public and what evidence wasn't? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's it?

Again, let's imagine there's a huge diamond heist at a local jewelry store, and the neighborhood Mafia is put in charge of investigating the crime. Do you honestly think that the local Mafia would release to you any evidence that they were responsible for the heist if they truly were the culprits? Or do you think they might try to frame someone else, like a competing Mafia?