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Old 11-22-2012, 03:14 PM   #826
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The final battle is damn hard,got those mind shields but still getting mind controlled etc,lost one soldier getting to the final bosses and out of med packs ,very frustrating infact think I leave it until try tomorrow,if not done by Sunday then the game is getting uninstalled,got too many games to play and I hate it when you get a frustrating game where you can't even make a dent in the progress at the end.


I still think game needs rebalancing,I'm all for a hard game but it should never be frustrating because when a gamer gets frustrated he leaves the game or gives up completely.


I will say it's a not a classic and having played it this far feel they could of made it so much better in many ways,soldier inventory, mores bases etc...thats without bugs or balancing issues.
I'm not the best player or the worst and bet there are many players like me out there.

Oh well off too ME3 MP now,at least that game is not frustrating and actually fun to play.
What difficulty are you playing?
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Old 11-22-2012, 05:34 PM   #827
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The final battle is damn hard,got those mind shields but still getting mind controlled etc,lost one soldier getting to the final bosses and out of med packs ,very frustrating infact think I leave it until try tomorrow,if not done by Sunday then the game is getting uninstalled,got too many games to play and I hate it when you get a frustrating game where you can't even make a dent in the progress at the end.
I kind of exploited the AI when I did the final battle in my Classic ironman game. I left my whole team behind cover outside the final room, and sent one soldier with ghost armor in to bait them and immediately run back. Then I picked them off one by one as they came through the door to get me
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:39 PM   #828
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Originally Posted by Mem View Post
The final battle is damn hard,got those mind shields but still getting mind controlled etc,lost one soldier getting to the final bosses and out of med packs ,very frustrating infact think I leave it until try tomorrow,if not done by Sunday then the game is getting uninstalled,got too many games to play and I hate it when you get a frustrating game where you can't even make a dent in the progress at the end.


I still think game needs rebalancing,I'm all for a hard game but it should never be frustrating because when a gamer gets frustrated he leaves the game or gives up completely.


I will say it's a not a classic and having played it this far feel they could of made it so much better in many ways,soldier inventory, mores bases etc...thats without bugs or balancing issues.
I'm not the best player or the worst and bet there are many players like me out there.

Oh well off too ME3 MP now,at least that game is not frustrating and actually fun to play.
The trick to the final battle is kill the head guy first. Then all of the rest of the ethereals die away directly.

But I definitely feel ya on the whole game needing to be seriously re balanced. At the beginning it is super hard. then at the end it gets super easy.

I just abandoned my third Ironman game this evening. I was three months in and had just lost my fourth country to panic. I had already had two satellites shot down and my soldiers were dying 3-4 per mission. So I was completely out of money and had none to hire more soldiers. I had burned through my inventory of alien tech on the grey market and had a whole month ahead of me with no soldiers left. So I was going to lose yet more countries. In other words, it was totally unsustainable.

Don't get me wrong, I could survive (not with that game, but another) and defeat it. Just that after finishing the game once on normal, I really don't have the desire to fight through it again. It is very frustrating at the beginning. I don't think that the game was properly balanced.

So, off to another. I will probably come back at some point. But then again, there really isn't anything that I haven't seen in the game. No branching story structure. And all of the boards have started to become repetitive. So.....
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:31 AM   #829
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Oh come on people. X-com is supposed to be challenging. The only flaw is that the late game gets easier once you get better tech/abilities. Challenging =/= broken.
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:58 AM   #830
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I just abandoned my third Ironman game this evening. I was three months in and had just lost my fourth country to panic. I had already had two satellites shot down and my soldiers were dying 3-4 per mission. So I was completely out of money and had none to hire more soldiers. I had burned through my inventory of alien tech on the grey market and had a whole month ahead of me with no soldiers left. So I was going to lose yet more countries. In other words, it was totally unsustainable.
Sounds about par for the course lol. I found I had to change my tactics, be more careful. I did squad wipe 3 times in my C/I that finally worked... once, I shot 4 of my own soldiers with a rocket launcher. needless to say... that hurt and set me back a ton.
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:27 AM   #831
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I finally finished it by reloading a save just before you meet the final bosses,sneaked my soldiers in and my two snipers did good work on killing targets,ending was shorter then I expected.


Just waiting now for "Dishonored" to arrive .
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:24 PM   #832
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Oh come on people. X-com is supposed to be challenging. The only flaw is that the late game gets easier once you get better tech/abilities. Challenging =/= broken.
Come on fanbois. Understand that a well crafted 'Tough' game has a challenging curve which spans the entire game. Not Really tough at the beginning, moderately tough half way through and cake walk at the end.

To give example, My soldiers were panicking consistently upon the critical injury or death of one crew member. With a limitation of 4 (I wasn't able to get to five because none of my soldiers lived long enough to advance past one promotion) soldiers, that means that with one single death, half or more of your team becomes incapacitated (one dead, one or more panicked). Thus giving the aliens a SIGNIFICANT advantage. Because they are already in position to be firing on my team (evidence they have killed at least one).

And read the scenario I explained above. after THREE months, I had already lost FOUR countries including USA (one of the top earners). I had also lost TWO satellites. So with no money (my soldiers kept on dying so fast that replacing them just to have four to go on a mission bankrupted me) to build more, I was guaranteed to lose at least one more country by the end of the month, it was unsustainable.

I played the original. And I admit that it was tough. But after playing normal all the way to the end and then jumping up to Classic, I can say that the difficulty curve increased sharply.

Ok, maybe fanboi was a bit of an uncalled for statement. But.... If it's a lemon, call it a lemon. Don't paint it red and call it an apple. It is a simple fact that the difficulty curve is uneven. And could and should be fixed.

Now, I have no doubt that I could win. Just saying that, after completing the game at Normal, I have zero reason or compulsion to play six or seven more games until I finally get on top of the steep learning curve just to reach laser weapons and carapace armor. Because there is nothing new to see. No multiple end points. No decision tree what so ever. And very few maps. Plus the game breaking bugs.

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Sounds about par for the course lol. I found I had to change my tactics, be more careful. I did squad wipe 3 times in my C/I that finally worked... once, I shot 4 of my own soldiers with a rocket launcher. needless to say... that hurt and set me back a ton.
Yeah, definitely have to use different tactics. By the end of Normal, I had pretty much set how to deal with my team. And starting Classic, I started using the same tactics. All members wiped out. So I tried again. Destroyed. So I changed tactics. Better, only 3 destroyed out of 4. Eventually I got to keeping most of my troops alive in certain missions. Critically wounded, but alive. And unable to help in the next mission. And yeah, once you get the tactics down and better armor and six troupers. It gets easier. And then it gets EASY. Just sayin.

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Old 11-23-2012, 02:14 PM   #833
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Come on fanbois. Understand that a well crafted 'Tough' game has a challenging curve which spans the entire game. Not Really tough at the beginning, moderately tough half way through and cake walk at the end.

To give example, My soldiers were panicking consistently upon the critical injury or death of one crew member. With a limitation of 4 (I wasn't able to get to five because none of my soldiers lived long enough to advance past one promotion) soldiers, that means that with one single death, half or more of your team becomes incapacitated (one dead, one or more panicked). Thus giving the aliens a SIGNIFICANT advantage. Because they are already in position to be firing on my team (evidence they have killed at least one).
I don't agree with you completely on the difficulty curve. Whilst it isn't perfect I don't think it is quite as you describe. In my opinion the first 3 or 4 missions are still easy on classic mode - allowing you to get some soldiers up to Cpl/Sgt. Then the game rises in difficulty until you get plasma weapons and psi abilities, becoming far more easy, before getting slightly harder (but not as hard as before) at the end.

Just my opinion.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:09 PM   #834
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I don't agree with you completely on the difficulty curve. Whilst it isn't perfect I don't think it is quite as you describe. In my opinion the first 3 or 4 missions are still easy on classic mode - allowing you to get some soldiers up to Cpl/Sgt. Then the game rises in difficulty until you get plasma weapons and psi abilities, becoming far more easy, before getting slightly harder (but not as hard as before) at the end.

Just my opinion.
That's fair. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:25 PM   #835
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Update. Apparently the new definition of "Easy" is going up against 3-4 X the number of combatants as you have troops. Combatants that can and do, one-shot kill your troops, who routinely have superior position, longer range and, when they take down one of your troops, have a very high degree chance of panicking one or more of the rest of your team. In short, taking out one soldier has a better than 50% chance of incapacitating half of your team. Or at least according to the Bowie fan.
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:37 AM   #836
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The game was much easier that the original XCOM.
Both snipers "In the zone" equals to a dev build in cheat, when combined with the "ammo conservation" research + plasma pistols maxed out (through the foundry research), the snipers will be able to deal with all threads easily.
Game was easy on the classic mode.
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:59 AM   #837
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Update. Apparently the new definition of "Easy" is going up against 3-4 X the number of combatants as you have troops. Combatants that can and do, one-shot kill your troops, who routinely have superior position, longer range and, when they take down one of your troops, have a very high degree chance of panicking one or more of the rest of your team. In short, taking out one soldier has a better than 50% chance of incapacitating half of your team. Or at least according to the Bowie fan.
I meant easy in comparison to the rest of the game. The game is hard (on classic/impossible ironman)

Also the aliens do not have superior range on classic difficulty, neither do they have superior positions (they do have better AI - but you can retreat/ move around etc). Plus if you are in heavy cover (as you nearly always should be) thin men and sectiods (the only things you fight in the early missions) are unlikely to one shot your troops.
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:13 PM   #838
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I meant easy in comparison to the rest of the game. The game is hard (on classic/impossible ironman)

Also the aliens do not have superior range on classic difficulty
Sectoids start off with plasma pistols which are medium range weapons. Soldiers start off with assault rifles which are short range weapons.

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, neither do they have superior positions (they do have better AI - but you can retreat/ move around etc).
Aliens automatically get a movement when spotted. Not so with Soldiers. So sectoids moving into site range can flank without the soldiers getting a chance to move into cover. Soldiers encountering aliens can't surprise them such that they get a free round of flanked attack. Thus superior position. Also, aliens will often times start out at elevation whereas soldiers need to move to elevation. Without Archangel armor or at least grapple, this means they often need to move thru occupied territory. All of this equals superior position.

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Plus if you are in heavy cover (as you nearly always should be) thin men and sectiods (the only things you fight in the early missions) are unlikely to one shot your troops.
I don't know what boards you play, but (a) when scouting an area, I don't often have heavy cover. Cover, yes. But not always heavy cover to choose from. (b) three sectoids can easily blow away heavy cover with the first shot and still have two more combatants to critical. in the first few missions I have routinely encountered three groups of three at the same time. (c) if the sectoids move, they can change your cover from heavy to light, no or even flanking. (d) even if it is hard to critical, two regular hits from a plasma rifle will kill any rookie who doesn't have carapace armor.
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Old 11-24-2012, 03:52 PM   #839
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I don't know what boards you play, but (a) when scouting an area, I don't often have heavy cover. Cover, yes. But not always heavy cover to choose from. (b) three sectoids can easily blow away heavy cover with the first shot and still have two more combatants to critical. in the first few missions I have routinely encountered three groups of three at the same time. (c) if the sectoids move, they can change your cover from heavy to light, no or even flanking. (d) even if it is hard to critical, two regular hits from a plasma rifle will kill any rookie who doesn't have carapace armor.
On classic difficulty, you need full cover. Sometimes it's tough to do, but if you're finding you just can't get full cover at all then you're doing something wrong (being too aggressive likely). Moving to half cover is a calculated risk that you might be sacrificing that guy.
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:50 PM   #840
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On classic difficulty, you need full cover. Sometimes it's tough to do, but if you're finding you just can't get full cover at all then you're doing something wrong (being too aggressive likely). Moving to half cover is a calculated risk that you might be sacrificing that guy.
gotta ask how you are maintaining full cover when you move your troops. Or after aliens blast away at you and hit your cover, thus eliminating it. Or when there flat isn't any cover at all as routinely happens particularly in the 'Sparsely populated' areas. Or when the enemy moves to better position thus circumnavigating your cover.

I have to say that if you can maintain full cover 50% of the time, you are probably doing pretty good. And that is playing extremely conservatively. But if you are saying that you are maintaining it 100% of the time, bull!

I did find another flaw in the design. the game can literally hold you hostage at a certain level of development by not giving you missions that provide engineers. The game I am playing I am in month 5 and I can't get past 9 engineers. so I can't build a second satellite uplink to put over a country that will give me engineers. And out of four terror missions since I realized the problem (so let's call it 6 total), none of them have given me any choices that provide engineers. So I can't get lasers or carapace armor either. And they are starting to throw Mutons at me. If this trend continues, I will be facing Disks with assault rifles.

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Old 11-24-2012, 06:51 PM   #841
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gotta ask how you are maintaining full cover when you move your troops. Or after aliens blast away at you and hit your cover, thus eliminating it. Or when there flat isn't any cover at all as routinely happens particularly in the 'Sparsely populated' areas. Or when the enemy moves to better position thus circumnavigating your cover.

I have to say that if you can maintain full cover 50% of the time, you are probably doing pretty good. And that is playing extremely conservatively. But if you are saying that you are maintaining it 100% of the time, bull!

I did find another flaw in the design. the game can literally hold you hostage at a certain level of development by not giving you missions that provide engineers. The game I am playing I am in month 5 and I can't get past 9 engineers. so I can't build a second satellite uplink to put over a country that will give me engineers. And out of four terror missions since I realized the problem (so let's call it 6 total), none of them have given me any choices that provide engineers. So I can't get lasers or carapace armor either. And they are starting to throw Mutons at me. If this trend continues, I will be facing Disks with assault rifles.
I don't understand how you're having so much of a problem with cover. There's full cover all over the place even on "sparse" maps (tall rocks/trees). Don't chase down enemies or move just to get a decent shot unless you know you'll be safe after. The only map I have issues with is the one with the fountain lined by two roads where there's lots of full cover for the aliens and not a lot for you; there's still full cover to be had though. Every other map I've played has plenty available. Maybe 5-10% of the time I don't have full cover. On classic you shouldn't even consider half cover an option unless there's a specific dire purpose for making the move.

The mission reward randomness pisses me off too sometimes. Usually there's one mission you absolutely need to take to keep from losing a country so you end up screwed even if the option you need comes up. You do know you get 5 engineers for building a workshop though right?
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:29 PM   #842
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I don't understand how you're having so much of a problem with cover. There's full cover all over the place even on "sparse" maps (tall rocks/trees). Don't chase down enemies or move just to get a decent shot unless you know you'll be safe after. The only map I have issues with is the one with the fountain lined by two roads where there's lots of full cover for the aliens and not a lot for you; there's still full cover to be had though. Every other map I've played has plenty available. Maybe 5-10% of the time I don't have full cover. On classic you shouldn't even consider half cover an option unless there's a specific dire purpose for making the move.

The mission reward randomness pisses me off too sometimes. Usually there's one mission you absolutely need to take to keep from losing a country so you end up screwed even if the option you need comes up. You do know you get 5 engineers for building a workshop though right?
Who said I was having trouble with cover? I think that was yet another assumption on your part.

My comment was that the difficulty at the beginning of the game needs adjusting. Since the enemy can often times one-shot your soldiers and that most of the time, the death of one of your four solders leads to one or more of the rest of your team panicking, means that they can literally one shot take out (for one round) half or more of your squad. Add to that the fact that you are often facing 2-3x as many enemies as you have soldiers and they have longer range and (usually) established position including higher ground. it is extremely hard to keep new soldiers alive long enough to get promoted to the point where you have Officer training. MUCH harder than even once you get going. And HUGELY harder than the end game which is a cake walk.

I don't have problems with finding cover. I stand by my statement that anyone who claims they keep 100% heavy cover is lying through their eye teeth. I had another scenario where floaters spawned directly behind my squad and had the entire team flanked. There was zero I could do against that. And even if you are really REALLY careful, there is no way you can make all off your troops have heavy cover 100% of the time. Period. There are times when it simply isn't there. Or if it is, the enemy can get around it by shifting position such that you don't have that cover. Or even if it is there and they don't get around it, they can still hit and kill you through it. Which they do more than is comfortable in my mind at the early game.

As for the randomness, I get that it is random. But literally I had 4-6 missions where there was no Engineer choice what so ever. And no other method of bringing them in. I had laser rifles and carapace armor researched two months ago, but can't make any because I don't have engineers. And I can't build another satellite uplink because of the lack of engineers. Too much hinges on that one factor and literally it can lead to losing the game for that factor alone. So there should be some other means. In the original games you could hire engineers and scientists. Make them damn expensive if they want, but make it an option. Otherwise, randomness can literally lock you out of the game.

I finally encountered disks in this game. Let me tell you that a disk when all you have is rocket launchers and assault rifles, is death for the squad. So, after my entire squad got wiped out, I went back to base. I ran time out to the next month, lost 4 more countries and quit. Deleted the save game. I had lost three whole continents by that point and had no way of recovering.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:32 PM   #843
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Who said I was having trouble with cover? I think that was yet another assumption on your part.

My comment was that the difficulty at the beginning of the game needs adjusting. Since the enemy can often times one-shot your soldiers and that most of the time, the death of one of your four solders leads to one or more of the rest of your team panicking, means that they can literally one shot take out (for one round) half or more of your squad. Add to that the fact that you are often facing 2-3x as many enemies as you have soldiers and they have longer range and (usually) established position including higher ground. it is extremely hard to keep new soldiers alive long enough to get promoted to the point where you have Officer training. MUCH harder than even once you get going. And HUGELY harder than the end game which is a cake walk.

I don't have problems with finding cover. I stand by my statement that anyone who claims they keep 100% heavy cover is lying through their eye teeth. I had another scenario where floaters spawned directly behind my squad and had the entire team flanked. There was zero I could do against that. And even if you are really REALLY careful, there is no way you can make all off your troops have heavy cover 100% of the time. Period. There are times when it simply isn't there. Or if it is, the enemy can get around it by shifting position such that you don't have that cover. Or even if it is there and they don't get around it, they can still hit and kill you through it. Which they do more than is comfortable in my mind at the early game.

As for the randomness, I get that it is random. But literally I had 4-6 missions where there was no Engineer choice what so ever. And no other method of bringing them in. I had laser rifles and carapace armor researched two months ago, but can't make any because I don't have engineers. And I can't build another satellite uplink because of the lack of engineers. Too much hinges on that one factor and literally it can lead to losing the game for that factor alone. So there should be some other means. In the original games you could hire engineers and scientists. Make them damn expensive if they want, but make it an option. Otherwise, randomness can literally lock you out of the game.

I finally encountered disks in this game. Let me tell you that a disk when all you have is rocket launchers and assault rifles, is death for the squad. So, after my entire squad got wiped out, I went back to base. I ran time out to the next month, lost 4 more countries and quit. Deleted the save game. I had lost three whole continents by that point and had no way of recovering.
That you're having so much trouble with the start of the game and your complaints tell me what you're having problems with. It's not an assumption; it's just an easily observed fact. I just played through the first four missions of a game I started. Each mission I only ever moved into half cover one time the entire mission, and I didn't lose anyone on any of them (had 2 wounded on two missions and none even wounded on two others). The situation you lay out is extraordinarily rare when I'm playing at the start because one of my guys don't get gibbed like you do.

You can hire engineers by way of building workshops. It might not have been possible to get enough, but there's no way you got stuck at 9 (you need 6 to build WS so you couldn't have built one from 4 to get 9). So you could have had 14 engineers in that game enough for lasers/carapice. I'm wondering how you only saw mutons in the 5th month though; does delaying objectives cause that (I usually capture an energy being in the second month, but hold off on studying)? I've never had them not show up in the third month.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:08 AM   #844
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Sectoids start off with plasma pistols which are medium range weapons. Soldiers start off with assault rifles which are short range weapons.



Aliens automatically get a movement when spotted. Not so with Soldiers. So sectoids moving into site range can flank without the soldiers getting a chance to move into cover. Soldiers encountering aliens can't surprise them such that they get a free round of flanked attack. Thus superior position. Also, aliens will often times start out at elevation whereas soldiers need to move to elevation. Without Archangel armor or at least grapple, this means they often need to move thru occupied territory. All of this equals superior position.

Sectiods always have plasma pistols though....

You need to be retreating/moving sideways to evade aliens. If you encounter 2 or 3 groups you can run back and flank round ending up facing only one group at a time.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:21 AM   #845
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Sectiods always have plasma pistols though....

You need to be retreating/moving sideways to evade aliens. If you encounter 2 or 3 groups you can run back and flank round ending up facing only one group at a time.
This,
I have done it many times when facing disk + berserker.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:30 AM   #846
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I always use the aliens free movement to my advantage by moving my sniper into position and then putting her in overwatch before advancing with others. That way they move and get picked off by her and other soldiers. I almost always kill one of them during their free move this way (since they aren't in cover during their move.)
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:46 AM   #847
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I always use the aliens free movement to my advantage by moving my sniper into position and then putting her in overwatch before advancing with others. That way they move and get picked off by her and other soldiers. I almost always kill one of them during their free move this way (since they aren't in cover during their move.)
I've thought about doing that, but haven't really executed it yet.

I frequently get them to appear on their turn giving me a free round against them. I always use only one movement to go forward and never have anyone after the first move farther than the first. I also use one move from each guy before ever using the second; usually I just overwatch everyone if I haven't spotted any aliens. Since they need to activate before they can fire, you don't even need cover while doing this.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:01 PM   #848
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Anyone tried imposible/Ironman yet? It took me about an hour and a half to clear the opening mission. I've already beat the game on classic. When the sectoids mindlink with each other, the boosted one hardly ever misses, even with full cover. I didn't stick with the game though, very tough to keep anyone alive and after one abduction mission (squad wiped) 2 of the 3 countries panicked and left the Xcom project.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:03 PM   #849
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Sectiods always have plasma pistols though....
My comment was that aliens start with superior range. Soldiers start off with Assault rifles and then get shot guns. Both are short range weapons. You commented that aliens do not get superior range. Sectoids start out with Plasma pistols that are medium range weapons. So Aliens do get superior range. Period.

As for the rest, I am capable of working through the strategy. Nothing you have stated has disabused me of the notion that there are serious balancing issues in the game both at the beginning and at the end.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:28 PM   #850
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My comment was that aliens start with superior range. Soldiers start off with Assault rifles and then get shot guns. Both are short range weapons. You commented that aliens do not get superior range. Sectoids start out with Plasma pistols that are medium range weapons. So Aliens do get superior range. Period.

As for the rest, I am capable of working through the strategy. Nothing you have stated has disabused me of the notion that there are serious balancing issues in the game both at the beginning and at the end.
For what it's worth, assault rifles are "standard" weapons - they have no range penalty. They are equivalent to plasma pistols... except plasma pistols have a nasty habit of blowing away cover. Annoying.

I found myself using a LOT of grenades in C/I. Many, many grenades.
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