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Old 11-20-2012, 03:38 PM   #26
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Nascar makes me sad to be American.
I mean seriously. Family sedan bodies going in a constant circle. And the IQ it takes to sit through something like that..
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:05 PM   #27
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NASCAR has simple rules but if you think the engineering behind it is simple your wrong. NASCAR teams spend tons of money on engineering. To call them a bunch of rednecks is over simplifying things. The drivers? By enlarge, yes. The fans, most definitely. The guys building the cars, not so much.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #28
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NASCAR has simple rules but if you think the engineering behind it is simple your wrong. NASCAR teams spend tons of money on engineering. To call them a bunch of rednecks is over simplifying things. The drivers? By enlarge, yes. The fans, most definitely. The guys building the cars, not so much.
NASCAR engineering isn't simple in a global sense, no. But compared to F1? Well... just look at the budget expenditure to see who is doing more R&D&T and riding that fine line of failure more closely.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:46 AM   #29
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Freescale is a global technology company with a long history in
automotive electronics—the first fuel injection system (1980 Cadillac
Eldorado) was built with Freescale technology
they are conveniently not qualifying that statement with the word "electronic". fuel injection is older that world war 2.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:55 AM   #30
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NASCAR engineering isn't simple in a global sense, no. But compared to F1? Well... just look at the budget expenditure to see who is doing more R&D&T and riding that fine line of failure more closely.
apples and oranges. both are achieving their goals. f1's goal is to build the highest performing machine possible, nascar's goal is to build or buy the most equal machines possible and then crash when ordered to.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:34 AM   #31
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apples and oranges. both are achieving their goals. f1's goal is to build the highest performing machine possible, nascar's goal is to build or buy the most equal machines possible and then crash when ordered to.
The apples and oranges is the main point and most do not seem to understand that...? Also like to point something else out that few seem to notice is why not support American racing as opposed to foreign racing...? Do you not live here and does that not say something about your heritage...? While F1 racing is more advanced tech it does spread out over as stated 18 countries while Nascar is made in America as stated... Do you guys really prefer foreign countries all that much as opposed to where you really live (this excludes our foreign member of course)... What I'm also getting at is this is the problem in this day and age that so many do not support whats done or made right here in America...? I do not mind buying a Nissan or Honda or other foreign car because I know that many are now made right here in America (BTW own 2 Chevys and a Nissan... I am glad to hear F1 is coming to the US and will support it but Nascar is still a "Made in the USA" motorsport...

Again this is an apples to oranges issue and to each his own and scoffing at either just shows ignorance from either side so why not just enjoy them for what they are "motorsports racing"...
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:34 AM   #32
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The apples and oranges is the main point and most do not seem to understand that...? Also like to point something else out that few seem to notice is why not support American racing as opposed to foreign racing...? Do you not live here and does that not say something about your heritage...? While F1 racing is more advanced tech it does spread out over as stated 18 countries while Nascar is made in America as stated... Do you guys really prefer foreign countries all that much as opposed to where you really live (this excludes our foreign member of course)... What I'm also getting at is this is the problem in this day and age that so many do not support whats done or made right here in America...? I do not mind buying a Nissan or Honda or other foreign car because I know that many are now made right here in America (BTW own 2 Chevys and a Nissan... I am glad to hear F1 is coming to the US and will support it but Nascar is still a "Made in the USA" motorsport...

Again this is an apples to oranges issue and to each his own and scoffing at either just shows ignorance from either side so why not just enjoy them for what they are "motorsports racing"...
that's such horseshit it's not even funny. it has nothing to do with people liking a "foreign" motorsport over a "domestic" one.

i don't prefer american football over international football because one's american and the other's not. i like american football because it's interesting. pro soccer is not, and the players are a bunch of pvssies that try to draw a referee call every chance they get, rather than playing the whistle.

nascar is not interesting to many auto enthusiasts (although it is quite popular in the U.S.) because the course is an oval...and you make like 500 laps of it. there's no change in direction, there are only so many interesting things that can happen on such a simple course. that's why crashes are so great - they bring change to an otherwise uninteresting race.

seeing motoGP racers take turns left, right, hairpins, chicanes, slaloms? gives me a stiffy every time.

i bought a hyundai genesis coupe for my car and a yamaha FZ6R for my motorcycle. why didn't i buy vehicles from domestic manufacturers? because they didn't have what i liked. the camaro was claustrophobic, and there are already 10000000 mustangs on the road. and buying a harley? bahahahah maybe if i never want to enjoy these things called turns. if i coudl have bought a corvette for $25k new i would have.

it has nothing to do with national pride or lackthereof, and everything to do with preference.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:37 AM   #33
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Both boring, especially F1 after the rulebook got so big that it basically kills the development of the cars.
Wish they started a new withou rules. We'd see so many innovations in short time, thanks to the huge budgets...
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:37 AM   #34
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NASCAR has simple rules but if you think the engineering behind it is simple your wrong. NASCAR teams spend tons of money on engineering. To call them a bunch of rednecks is over simplifying things. The drivers? By enlarge, yes. The fans, most definitely. The guys building the cars, not so much.
Nascar does nothing to advance automotive technology. That makes it worthless aside from making money. It's primitive on purpose. No one even knows why.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:18 AM   #35
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V8 Supercars are better than bother.
Having watched a couple races, I would almost tend to agree! That series is pretty sweet, didn't they run a race in Texas this year even? Or in the coming years?
V8 Supercars, WRC and those European Touring car series are way more interesting for me to watch. Maybe I just like watching regular looking cars race.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:45 AM   #36
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Both boring, especially F1 after the rulebook got so big that it basically kills the development of the cars.
Wish they started a new withou rules. We'd see so many innovations in short time, thanks to the huge budgets...
It's called formula 1, because there's a Formula to be adhered to. Development within the rules was always what it was about, with there being a cut every few years, to restart innovation in another sector. In recent years, the big challenge has been durability (limiting engines, gearboxes, etc). The 2010 championship only was close, because Red Bull had a durability nightmare.


On the other hand, Le Mans Prototypes are where the rules are somewhat more flexible, and with Garage 51 they actually promote out of the box thinking. The Le Mans Series budgets are much smaller though, especially since Peugeot pulled out. And with the low impact it has in the media, it's unlikely that budgets will increase.

Still, I can't think of any more liberal high-budget racing class.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:59 AM   #37
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What I'm also getting at is this is the problem in this day and age that so many do not support whats done or made right here in America...?
that gets to a fundamental problem with americans - the belief in our natural superiority, as well as isolationism.

something isn't "the best" or "right" just because it's american. thinking that will almost certainly get you an inferior product, like automobiles for example. once the big 3 ran out of wwii veterans to guilt-trip into buying their garbage, the shit hit the fan.

for what it's worth, america's status as the wealthiest, most powerful nation on the planet wasn't the result of the superiority of the american way of life - it's because when the white man found north america he found the jackpot of the entire planet, and possessed the will and ability to exploit it.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:23 PM   #38
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Nascar does nothing to advance automotive technology. That makes it worthless aside from making money. It's primitive on purpose. No one even knows why.
Care to list what F1 has brought to road cars? And I don't mean what Ferrari is putting in their latest $300,000 supercar. I mean what do every day cars from Toyota and Ford use that F1 invented? Nothing of any signifcance that I can think of. Most of the major innovation in road cars in the past 25 years are in electronic aids and efficiency. Things like airbags, traction control, electronic stabilty control are now required in many countries including the US, and are either banned by F1 regulations or not usable. Direct injection is a major technology today as well as hybrid and alternative fuel technology, none of which have their roots in F1.

The goal of F1 is to make the fastest car possible within the rules, it has no aspirations to make these technologies relevant to the real world. Random things may trickle down, but it is a joke to say F1 is some sort of technology gold mine to road cars compared to other racing series. NASA has probably trickled down more technology to road cars than F1, and no one is saying we should increase NASA funding for that purpose.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:34 PM   #39
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Care to list what F1 has brought to road cars? And I don't mean what Ferrari is putting in their latest $300,000 supercar. I mean what do every day cars from Toyota and Ford use that F1 invented? Nothing of any signifcance that I can think of. Most of the major innovation in road cars in the past 25 years are in electronic aids and efficiency. Things like airbags, traction control, electronic stabilty control are now required in many countries including the US, and are either banned by F1 regulations or not usable. Direct injection is a major technology today as well as hybrid and alternative fuel technology, none of which have their roots in F1.

The goal of F1 is to make the fastest car possible within the rules, it has no aspirations to make these technologies relevant to the real world. Random things may trickle down, but it is a joke to say F1 is some sort of technology gold mine to road cars compared to other racing series. NASA has probably trickled down more technology to road cars than F1, and no one is saying we should increase NASA funding for that purpose.
if i had to guess at some potential answers (not guaranteed, i didn't look them up):

ABS
ESC/traction control/launch control
electronic fuel injection and throttle mapping
electronically adjustable suspension damping
better tire compounds
better turbochargers
better engine internals (cranks, rods, pistons, valves)
better understanding of aerodynamics

now, many manufacturers don't compete in F1, but they do in other series. the 5.5L engine in the LMP1/2(?) C6R is the basis for the next gen V8s in the C7 corvette, same as C5R/C6Z06 was. audi uses its LeMans car to develop its diesel technology. subaru used to do WRC.

but you don't see too many carbureted automobiles manufactured these days, do you?
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:40 PM   #40
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Care to list what F1 has brought to road cars? And I don't mean what Ferrari is putting in their latest $300,000 supercar. I mean what do every day cars from Toyota and Ford use that F1 invented? Nothing of any signifcance that I can think of. Most of the major innovation in road cars in the past 25 years are in electronic aids and efficiency. Things like airbags, traction control, electronic stabilty control are now required in many countries including the US, and are either banned by F1 regulations or not usable. Direct injection is a major technology today as well as hybrid and alternative fuel technology, none of which have their roots in F1.

The goal of F1 is to make the fastest car possible within the rules, it has no aspirations to make these technologies relevant to the real world. Random things may trickle down, but it is a joke to say F1 is some sort of technology gold mine to road cars compared to other racing series. NASA has probably trickled down more technology to road cars than F1, and no one is saying we should increase NASA funding for that purpose.
the consensus is that f1 has evolved away from relevance to road cars, but the governing body is addressing that. specifically, hybrid ic/electric power and fuel economy are areas of aggressive development. the electronic aides prevalent in road cars were developed in f1 in the 80's and 90's and are now banned because they are too good. honda stated their benefit from f1 was to involve their engineers in a lightning-quick arms race. for some time now, the custom fuels may only include ingredients found in pump gas.

i think the f1 implementation of hybrid power is too far in 1 direction (additional power only) and the le mans implementation is too far in the other (additional economy only).
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:11 PM   #41
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if i had to guess at some potential answers (not guaranteed, i didn't look them up):
You should have stopped there. Not trying to be rude, but if you are just randomly guessing, then you aren't adding anything to thread. The only specific technology that you listed that you can trace to F1 is active suspension. And that's just the concept itself, not the implementation. The original implementation was hydraulically actuated and it never made it into a production car. Electronically controlled suspensions appeared in road cars before F1. Chrysler had electronic fuel injection in the late 1950's and ABS in the early 70's. Traction control by GM in the 70's. ESC was developed by Mercedes in the 80's.

Not sure what you were talking about after the list.
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:13 PM   #42
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the electronic aides prevalent in road cars were developed in f1 in the 80's and 90's and are now banned because they are too good.
No, they weren't. See above. They are banned, but they weren't developed by F1.
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:30 PM   #43
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I like both. However... Overtaking in F1? Rare event. Overtaking in NASCAR? Don't blink. If you like wrecks, fights, and mayhem, NASCAR is the best. If you're into plotting, precision, and scenery, F1 is for you.

It's horseshoes vs chess, and I enjoy/appreciate them equally.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:49 PM   #44
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how does indycar fit into this battle?
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:17 PM   #45
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that gets to a fundamental problem with americans - the belief in our natural superiority, as well as isolationism.

something isn't "the best" or "right" just because it's american. thinking that will almost certainly get you an inferior product, like automobiles for example. once the big 3 ran out of wwii veterans to guilt-trip into buying their garbage, the shit hit the fan.

for what it's worth, america's status as the wealthiest, most powerful nation on the planet wasn't the result of the superiority of the american way of life - it's because when the white man found north america he found the jackpot of the entire planet, and possessed the will and ability to exploit it.
Big miss...? Not at all what I meant but does sound like you do not care to support what appears to be where you live...? That is the problem and my point, has nothing to do with superiority so leave that debate for another section of the forums which you know where I mean...

As stated before this thread is just comparing apples to oranges, nothing more nothing less... Just get tired of hearing people trying to put them in the same class if this is horseshit then I do not know what it is...? Rather see someone compare what Elganja just posted... Indy cars to F1...? BTW just for the notes I have watched and enjoyed Nascar since it first came to TV and could be because I raced my first dirt car at age 14 (almost 40 years ago now)...

Oh and BTW I guess going 8-10 seconds in the 1/4 mile does not rate much with people either...? Might want to give that a try before you knock it... I'm to old for the circle track in competition but both it and drag racing get the blood pumping, so climb in a Nascar ride or drag car and give it shot before you say "oh thats just boring"...
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:24 PM   #46
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You should have stopped there. Not trying to be rude, but if you are just randomly guessing, then you aren't adding anything to thread. The only specific technology that you listed that you can trace to F1 is active suspension. And that's just the concept itself, not the implementation. The original implementation was hydraulically actuated and it never made it into a production car. Electronically controlled suspensions appeared in road cars before F1. Chrysler had electronic fuel injection in the late 1950's and ABS in the early 70's. Traction control by GM in the 70's. ESC was developed by Mercedes in the 80's.

Not sure what you were talking about after the list.
i guessed based on the many MotoGP technologies have trickled down into production motorcycles. i included a disclaimer :roll:
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:30 PM   #47
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Not at all what I meant but does sound like you do not care to support what appears to be where you live...?
i'll support them, but who's supporting me? i've had 2 american cars that were defective in every way before disintegrating. my work trucks weren't much better, although the f-450's were ok. they were garbage because that's what detroit chose to put out. it was pathetically easy for the japanese to make me a fan of their cars.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:56 PM   #48
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Care to list what F1 has brought to road cars? And I don't mean what Ferrari is putting in their latest $300,000 supercar. I mean what do every day cars from Toyota and Ford use that F1 invented? Nothing of any signifcance that I can think of. Most of the major innovation in road cars in the past 25 years are in electronic aids and efficiency. Things like airbags, traction control, electronic stabilty control are now required in many countries including the US, and are either banned by F1 regulations or not usable. Direct injection is a major technology today as well as hybrid and alternative fuel technology, none of which have their roots in F1.

The goal of F1 is to make the fastest car possible within the rules, it has no aspirations to make these technologies relevant to the real world. Random things may trickle down, but it is a joke to say F1 is some sort of technology gold mine to road cars compared to other racing series. NASA has probably trickled down more technology to road cars than F1, and no one is saying we should increase NASA funding for that purpose.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008...n-formula-one/

http://newsbytes.com.au/2011/11/how-.../#.UK7mpdfFjmg

“We worked on a dedicated F1 foundry, developed leading edge casting technologies with ultra-precise process management yielding lightweight components with very high stiffness,” he said.
Today, this light alloy foundry produces high-tech road-car components.
“Carbon fiber was first used in F1. In 2013 BMW will introduce the Megacity, the first mass produced car with a carbon-fiber body.
“Innovation is essential in motor sport. Racing is about competition, and that includes technology. Looking back to our own F1 project, there was lots of innovation and technology transfer.”
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:15 PM   #49
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i'll support them, but who's supporting me? i've had 2 american cars that were defective in every way before disintegrating. my work trucks weren't much better, although the f-450's were ok. they were garbage because that's what detroit chose to put out. it was pathetically easy for the japanese to make me a fan of their cars.

LOL... Uh you got you know who again... Just curious as to what cars you had that were defective...? Larger trucks are most always tougher guess thats why I prefer my 2500HD DMAX as opposed to a 1/2 ton or a car...? But just another note our new 2012 Nissan Sentra is not what we thought it would be either fuel mileage is no where near what its supposed to be which is one of the prime reasons for buying one (cheap trans for the wife and school)... Lucky to get 28mpg highway...?
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:18 PM   #50
Throckmorton
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For those of us who buy older used cars, American isn't an option.

If I could spend $3000 on a RWD American car with a manual transmission and good handling that's not ugly, I would.
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Last edited by Throckmorton; 11-22-2012 at 09:46 PM.
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