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Old 11-19-2012, 10:28 AM   #1
Zivic
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Default brake advise for my evo

I am trying to figure out what to do with the brakes on my evo. they flat out suck.. they shimmy fairly bad, have crappy initial bite and don't have the linear modulation I like - you have to slam them. they stop hard, but have a crappy feel. The shimmy, I am fairly certain it is from letting the car sit for 3-4 weeks at a time over the summer. I put in a set of raybestos st43 pads to try and scrub the rotors, but they have only gotten worse... so they need to be replaced

so I am looking at my options. I know the front calipers need a rebuild and would like to have them refinished... cough... brownbos... cough. the dust seals are toast and with the shimmy, I will be getting new rotors. I want to stay with the ability to run 17" wheels, so I have limited options in that regards. otherwise I would likely just get a 355 brembo gt kit. I am not a fan of stoptech, so please don't put a "write in" vote for them. I don't think they are a bad setup, just not what I want to spend my money on.

so if I go a two piece rotor, like I have, a full rebuild with refinish, and new pads, I am looking at 1500+ bucks!
ferodo pads = 245
rebuild/refinish calipers with new SS pistons = 650
girodisc two piece rotors = 700
+ shipping
-----

based on that, I feel like I should just get a new BBK, but now it becomes tricky because I want to be able to run 17" wheels. My options

Alcon 343mm BBK - arguably the best of the best, but costs ~3000 bucks (which is actually a very good price based msrp of ~4200) this is just for the fronts, and I would need at least new rotors and pads for the rear.. so add about 350 at a minimum. down the road I could get a rear kit for another 2600.... !!!!
- replacement rings and pads are not cheap. pads are same price as current setup (~250), but rings are at least 400/each. but again, this is alcon, so we are talking premium goods



Essex AP 325mm front setup. This is a kit that essex put together for evo owners. Calipers are a common setup they use in a few setups they put together for other applications. has good reviews from the handful of guys running them. Kit wil run me about $2500. kind of pisses me off because they have run a few specials on them for about 300 bucks less, but will only work with my a little bit on the pricing right now... I probably would have bought this kit already if they would have offered me the discounted pricing they have ran a number of times on the forums. replacement parts are cheap. like 1/2 the price of alcon stuff. the calipers are just a goofy black/greyish anodizing. they almost look burnt. No matching rear kit.


My third option is wilwood. I can do front and rears for about 3000 bucks COMPLETE. Very good pricing, but almost no evo guys run them. replacement parts are cheap. the rear caliper kind of looks cheap, but they include a 2 piece rear rotor with iron hat, which is good for use with oem hand brake. I am hesitant with this kit for two reasons... the narrow caliper and the limited pads they have available. I can't find the ferodo pads I want to run, and due to the narrow calipers, are limited to 16mm pads, where as both other kits, I can get the pads I want. this is not to say the available pads are bad, just that I can't get much feedback from the evo guys on this kit and the pads.



-----

if money is no option, I am buying the alcons.... but that's just it, I don't have the money like I used to- lost my baller status. that's not to say I am not willing to spend the money if it's better in the long run. I am in for at least ~1500-2000 (fronts and rears) bucks no matter what I choose, so it's not like I have a "cheap" option. I think all the kits will likely be more than enough, but most say the stock brakes are great and I am thoroughly disappointed (oem brembo are not equal to their high performance aftermarket stuff). I have ran 3 different pads on the stock brakes and I have what many consider good rotors, so I have given them a good shot. I'd just hate to buy the wilwoods and have them be not better than stock. and I would hate to buy the alcons, and have them be no better than the wilwoods or ap setup would have been. the ap setup pisses me off, because they have been as cheap as 1700, and usually around 2100 with pads... and they will only work with me to about 2400 when I waited them out on a fall discount like they offered in the past... may be petty, but this is kind of what has kept me from buying them

any advise is appreciated

edit:
This is a street car.

Last edited by Zivic; 11-19-2012 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:17 AM   #2
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ha, street car

just get some good blank rotors and some Ferodo DS2500 pads

love mine, good enough for light track duty as well
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:29 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by CRXican View Post
ha, street car

just get some good blank rotors and some Ferodo DS2500 pads

love mine, good enough for light track duty as well
That's what everyone said when I bought the car... And I ran HPS hawks, racing brake et 500, and now raybestos st 43 pads and none are giving me what I want. The ferodos are like 250 bucks and that still doesn't resolve my caliper rebuild needs or rotors. I have a brembo 355 kit on my z and even for a street car I feel it was money well spent. Just don't want to be disappointed in what I buy because no matter what I chose, it won't be cheap.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:43 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by CRXican View Post
ha, street car

just get some good blank rotors and some Ferodo DS2500 pads

love mine, good enough for light track duty as well
<sarcasm sarcasm> Ferodo? Isn't that federal mogul? Just get the cheapest federal pads as the pad material is all the same anyway just check the heat rating. Gah our latest round of noobies are so stupid, I just can't help myself.

OP.. In all seriousness I'm fairly surprised that the stock brakes on an evo are that bad on the street. Did you buy this new? How much is factory rotors/ferodo pads and a rebuild kit? To me, if swinging $3300 is a problem then $2500 is money better saved.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:01 PM   #5
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It seems as if you're driving in a thumb tack with a sledge hammer.

I would start with flushing the braking system and putting on new rotors and pads, or even just getting your current rotors resurfaced. Almost completely replacing the braking system because of a shimmy seems like you're throwing away good money on a simple problem (bad rotor surfaces).
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:34 PM   #6
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How aggressively are you street driving that you're killing brakes as you describe? I don't want to be anywhere near where you drive.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:19 PM   #7
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How aggressively are you street driving that you're killing brakes as you describe? I don't want to be anywhere near where you drive.
The car was road raced by previous owner and I knew when I bought it the brakes would need to be gone through. I have been putting it off. Bought some time with new rotor rings and cheaper pads when I first got the car
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:25 PM   #8
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What am I missing here? You need $2500 brakes for a street car...?
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:27 PM   #9
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What kind of car is this? Why am I getting the impression that you're considering spending a huge amount on brakes for a ~$10k car?
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by JCH13 View Post
It seems as if you're driving in a thumb tack with a sledge hammer.

I would start with flushing the braking system and putting on new rotors and pads, or even just getting your current rotors resurfaced. Almost completely replacing the braking system because of a shimmy seems like you're throwing away good money on a simple problem (bad rotor surfaces).
The calipers need to be gone through up front. The boots are all cooked and I am fearing the seals aren't too far off from leaking. If I am ripping into them they will be refinished. I am looking at 650 to fully go through the calipers. Seals, pistons, boots, coating, bleeder fittings and crossover line.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:29 PM   #11
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Bad calipers on an Evo IX (read: fairly new car)? What? How are the dust boots (you mean around the caliper piston(s), right?) bad? Melted?

Agreed on skipping the fancy rotors. Slots and holes are just less surface area to make clamping force on. You can buy some kind of big brake kit, but IMO your stock brakes are more than adequate for a street car. Bigger brakes might help in some respects, but in the end, you're still at the mercy of the grip of your tires.

Are the stock calipers floating or do they have a piston (or two) on both sides?

edit: granted, I don't work on racecars...but I don't know if I've seen a caliper seal leak. Ever. Seen torn boots (usually on rear calipers with a parking brake mech- they stick and people rip them during brake jobs)...but never seen brake fluid coming out. Unless someone burned through the pads, destroyed the rotor and ejected the piston...slightly different situation.

Last edited by phucheneh; 11-19-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:31 PM   #12
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What am I missing here? You need $2500 brakes for a street car...?
Do I need 535 awhp on a street car?
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:33 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Zivic View Post
The calipers need to be gone through up front. The boots are all cooked and I am fearing the seals aren't too far off from leaking. If I am ripping into them they will be refinished. I am looking at 650 to fully go through the calipers. Seals, pistons, boots, coating, bleeder fittings and crossover line.
I see, I didn't know the car is an ex-racecar. That makes way more sense.

In that case I would go for the rebuild with new rotors and Porterfield street pads.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:58 PM   #14
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I see, I didn't know the car is an ex-racecar. That makes way more sense.

In that case I would go for the rebuild with new rotors and Porterfield street pads.
it wasn't a race car, race car... it was road raced, but still a street car... either way the calipers need to be gone through. this is what I am looking at doing, plus refinishing of the caliper... blasted and painted/coated. These are pics from the evo forum



oem dust seals all burned and cracked - mine are actually worse shape than those



caliper split in half


oem pistons next to stainless pistons


use compress air at the bride port and a used pad underneath to prevent one piston from coming out complete and not allow the other one to come out.


remove the oem dust seals


remove oem piston seals


clean out caliper


new stainless pistons and dust seals ready to go in


lubricate the pistons with some brake fluid so they slid in easy


all four pistons are in and ready for reassemble
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:39 PM   #15
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Right.. But "our" point is that if you're really driving an evo x hard enough to cook the stock brakes then you're being dangerous on the street.

WTF is a 'road racer' anyway? You mean a ricer?
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:39 PM   #16
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I'd rebuild or go the AP Racing route. AP Racing makes fantastic products.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:41 PM   #17
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_racing

Racing on a road course, I would assume.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:45 PM   #18
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Right.. But "our" point is that if you're really driving an evo x hard enough to cook the stock brakes then you're being dangerous on the street.

WTF is a 'road racer' anyway? You mean a ricer?
Street-class time attacks on road courses or participated in many track days would be my guess.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:53 PM   #19
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Yeah, that's what I thought at first, but how in the world are stock brakes ok for "timed" track events yet not suitable for the street?
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:56 PM   #20
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Right.. But "our" point is that if you're really driving an evo x hard enough to cook the stock brakes then you're being dangerous on the street.

WTF is a 'road racer' anyway? You mean a ricer?
road course racing - ie road america and BIR. he probably did half a dozen events a year with the car


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I'd rebuild or go the AP Racing route. AP Racing makes fantastic products.
the AP setup was what I was going to go for, but they pissed me off. they offered the kit up with promo pricing last fall and this spring for 2195 with a set of race pads... and they talked of doing promo pricing this fall, so I held out for it. then a few weeks past the dates, I contacted them about the promo deal and said the best they could do was 2500 (with a street pad.. so 2600 with an apples to apples parts list). An OK price, but early summer I see they offered the kit at $1599 + price of pads... obviously they have room to move. It may be petty, but it is enough for me to look elsewhere even if it costs a bit more.

I am really hesitant about rebuilding. I just don't think I will be happy with the results. If it were just a couple hundred bucks, I would take the risk, but not for what a full rebuild will cost
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:58 PM   #21
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Is it really that expensive? It sounds like your calipers are fine, a rebuild kit should be cheap. Rotors, pads, everything seems like it should be $600 at very most - and worst case, you can resell on the forums if they don't work out.
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:02 PM   #22
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Yeah, that's what I thought at first, but how in the world are stock brakes ok for "timed" track events yet not suitable for the street?
I am not some nutty street racer.

as far as the capabilities of the stock brakes, some say they are great, others don't feel they are worth a sh!t. based on my experience with owning the car for the last 2+ yrs, I have never been all that happy with them, despite having had the upgrades many say make up a good stock system.

I have a contact at racetechnologies (brembo usa) that I bought my brembo setup for my 350z from. he advises there is a substantial difference between oem brembo and high performance brembo (their aftermarket stuff). unfortunately the only brembo BBK are 355mm setup and don't fit under 17" wheels.
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:13 PM   #23
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Is it really that expensive? It sounds like your calipers are fine, a rebuild kit should be cheap. Rotors, pads, everything seems like it should be $600 at very most - and worst case, you can resell on the forums if they don't work out.
rebuilt calipers from racing brake with SS pistons I could get by with out recoating, but if I am going to rip them apart, I am going to refinish them as mine are brown and pealing and look like crap. and the cost isn't that much more vs buying the components and doing myself.

600 + I need new pins ($50) (+shipping)

Girodisc 2 piece rotors
I could go with cheaper single piece rotors but I would only run brembo one piece rotors, and they are still about 400 + shipping
girodiscs are:

745 shipped


Ferodo DS2500 front pads
$252 + shipping

even on a rebuild setup, I am not going to buy lesser rotors and crappy pads so it still comes out to some serious money
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:24 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zivic View Post
I am not some nutty street racer.

as far as the capabilities of the stock brakes, some say they are great, others don't feel they are worth a sh!t. based on my experience with owning the car for the last 2+ yrs, I have never been all that happy with them, despite having had the upgrades many say make up a good stock system.

I have a contact at racetechnologies (brembo usa) that I bought my brembo setup for my 350z from. he advises there is a substantial difference between oem brembo and high performance brembo (their aftermarket stuff). unfortunately the only brembo BBK are 355mm setup and don't fit under 17" wheels.

If you're not a nutty streetracer, and not doing timed events, then why wouldn't the stock brakes be ok? It's not like this is a civic or something that came with shit brakes.. It's a serious question here, as they seem to be decent from what little I've read. If you're not dragging them, and letting them cool off, then what's the deal?

Also, you're judging the "feel" of brakes that were heavily abused and using that to determine whether or not to spend >$2500

Yeah, the whole brembo thing is a mess in my opinion. The nissan brembos are chinese calipers with a brembo sticker. They are still good brakes, plenty for any type of street or even trackday stuff.... but not as good as real brembos.
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zivic View Post
rebuilt calipers from racing brake with SS pistons I could get by with out recoating, but if I am going to rip them apart, I am going to refinish them as mine are brown and pealing and look like crap. and the cost isn't that much more vs buying the components and doing myself.

600 + I need new pins ($50) (+shipping)

Girodisc 2 piece rotors
I could go with cheaper single piece rotors but I would only run brembo one piece rotors, and they are still about 400 + shipping
girodiscs are:

745 shipped


Ferodo DS2500 front pads
$252 + shipping

even on a rebuild setup, I am not going to buy lesser rotors and crappy pads so it still comes out to some serious money

Why do you "need" even brembo one piece? Just buy stock evo x rotors, maybe the ferodo pads, and do the rebuild yourself. Does no one sell a <$100 kit with the rubber boot, piston bushing, etc?

Seriously this seems like so much overkill unless you're going for looks. I hate being the typical grouchy old man, I just can't help it.
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