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Old 11-13-2012, 06:59 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Pariah View Post
Agreed. But everyone bitches about GM's loans and sarcastically calls them Gov't motors. I don't hear anyone bitching about Tesla's loans despite them getting an extention to pay them later while GM claims they paid theirs back early. At least GM is producing cars that the general public can buy.
Tesla loans where through a government program to increase the development of alternative energy vehicles. Tesla applied for the loans through this program. GM basically ran themselves into the ground with a bunch of bad business decisions and then came hat in hand to the government asking for a bailout of significant proportions. GM got 10's of Billion dollars. Part of that was in government money(loans) and part of was that the government gave GM money and got GM stock back. So the government still owns that stock. Until the government sells all of it's GM stock I really don't count that as GM paying everything back.
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:00 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ferzerp View Post
I see you're new to the internet

You can't look at any generic website (ATF is really a technical forum at heart, even the garage) and see a GM story without a fleet of posts saying just that.
And your point is????
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:11 PM   #28
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Tesla loans where through a government program to increase the development of alternative energy vehicles. Tesla applied for the loans through this program. GM basically ran themselves into the ground with a bunch of bad business decisions and then came hat in hand to the government asking for a bailout of significant proportions. GM got 10's of Billion dollars. Part of that was in government money(loans) and part of was that the government gave GM money and got GM stock back. So the government still owns that stock. Until the government sells all of it's GM stock I really don't count that as GM paying everything back.
So, to put it simply. You don't know what a double standard is.
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Brovane View Post
And your point is????
I'm going to have to assume the question is rhetorical.

you: If people are saying A then shouldn't people say B?
me: Tons of people are saying B, just look around.
you: what's your point?


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Old 11-13-2012, 07:29 PM   #30
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I've only seen one in their retail store near me, but it's quite attractive in person. I was a skeptic of Tesla's viability, but Musk seems to have proven us all wrong. The more good things I hear about the S the more impressed I am.

If I had $100k to spend on a sedan I'm not sure I wouldn't end up in one.

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Old 11-13-2012, 08:27 PM   #31
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So, to put it simply. You don't know what a double standard is.
Put it simply you cannot see the difference between the two programs.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:28 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ferzerp View Post
I'm going to have to assume the question is rhetorical.

you: If people are saying A then shouldn't people say B?
me: Tons of people are saying B, just look around.
you: what's your point?


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Old 11-13-2012, 09:15 PM   #33
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I did NOT expect to come in this thread and see general, even overwhelming support of this vehicle.

I expected the typical rash of Top Gear-type hatred of all things non-ICE. Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised Oh, and Top Gear can pound sand. I think most people realize what a debacle it was with the Roadster and it did its brand no favors.

I think I also predicted the demise of this company before the Model S hit production. I was wrong and learned something: Elon Musk is a fvcking machine. There is no other way to say it, but a guy who has headed both Tesla's success to date (i.e. they are still alive) and also Space X is very impressive. And he's young, too.

Tesla is by no means a company on firm financial footing right now, but the reviews of the S have been extremely positive and the company is selling all the cars it can make at this time. For such a small company that is essentially brand new it's really had an impact in the industry and even Toyota has used its components in their EV Rav4. Tesla is also pushing for a national fast-charging infrastructure so that their cars with larger batteries could actually go across country and make it between stations.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:16 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Doppel View Post
I did NOT expect to come in this thread and see general, even overwhelming support of this vehicle.

I expected the typical rash of Top Gear-type hatred of all things non-ICE. Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised Oh, and Top Gear can pound sand. I think most people realize what a debacle it was with the Roadster and it did its brand no favors.

I think I also predicted the demise of this company before the Model S hit production. I was wrong and learned something: Elon Musk is a fvcking machine. There is no other way to say it, but a guy who has headed both Tesla's success to date (i.e. they are still alive) and also Space X is very impressive. And he's young, too.

Tesla is by no means a company on firm financial footing right now, but the reviews of the S have been extremely positive and the company is selling all the cars it can make at this time. For such a small company that is essentially brand new it's really had an impact in the industry and even Toyota has used its components in their EV Rav4. Tesla is also pushing for a national fast-charging infrastructure so that their cars with larger batteries could actually go across country and make it between stations.

There is already a fast charging infrastructure open to the public in areas of California. you get abut an 80% charge on the battery in 30 minutes...and its free if you own a Tesla

oh and don't forget solar city....
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:30 AM   #35
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Great choice. Absolutely getting one of the 2014 models.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:57 AM   #36
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Agreed. But everyone bitches about GM's loans and sarcastically calls them Gov't motors. I don't hear anyone bitching about Tesla's loans despite them getting an extention to pay them later while GM claims they paid theirs back early. At least GM is producing cars that the general public can buy.
Tell that to yourself the next time you shop at a small business in town that got started with an SBA loan.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:05 AM   #37
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To be fair, I think they're being called government motors because the government still owns (and seems reluctant to sell) 26% of the company.

Personally, I find this somewhat disturbing on a few grounds.

I don't think a small business loan gives the government a huge portion of ownership of the company
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:03 PM   #38
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The thing you have to remember about the Car of the Year thing is that it's looking for a new/significantly redesigned car that accomplishes its goals the best. There are a lot of cars that are better cars for most people, but as one of the only full electric cars out there it is in their opinion the best at being a full electric sedan. I know I would rather have a Model S than a Nissan Leaf or an electric Focus. The video showing it beat an M5 in acceleration runs is pretty impressive.

For practical reasons, most people are still better served by an ICE car. The Car of the Year is usually not the best car available that year. People seem to gloss over that when it appears in advertising, as if it means it was the best at everything or overall somehow.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:02 PM   #39
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To be fair, I think they're being called government motors because the government still owns (and seems reluctant to sell) 26% of the company.

Personally, I find this somewhat disturbing on a few grounds.

I don't think a small business loan gives the government a huge portion of ownership of the company
I'm not even sure they get a seat on the board with that 26% stake. I'm not sure what about it would possibly be "disturbing" - the alternatives were to do nothing or give them all that money without getting anything in return.

The government exerts far more influence on car companies via regulation (even ones based outside the US) then they do over GM with this ownership stake.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:15 PM   #40
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I'm not even sure they get a seat on the board with that 26% stake. I'm not sure what about it would possibly be "disturbing" - the alternatives were to do nothing or give them all that money without getting anything in return.

The government exerts far more influence on car companies via regulation (even ones based outside the US) then they do over GM with this ownership stake.
Explicitly? No. However, the board was restructured at the behest of the government in that process, so I would say that there is at least implicit representation.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:57 PM   #41
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Put it simply you cannot see the difference between the two programs.
Nor can I see the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. I let you figure out what those three things have in common.


Quote:
Tell that to yourself the next time you shop at a small business in town that got started with an SBA loan.
Name a small business that was created by a billionaire with the help of a half billion dollar gov't loan and your point will have some meaning.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:38 PM   #42
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Nor can I see the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. I let you figure out what those three things have in common.




Name a small business that was created by a billionaire with the help of a half billion dollar gov't loan and your point will have some meaning.
FYI, Musk wasn't a Billionaire when he started Tesla.



Also are you even aware of the program that Tesla was given the loan under? It was the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program which was a $25 Billion dollar loan program funded by Congress to help vehicles manufactured in the US meet higher mileage requirements and lessen US dependence on foreign oil. So far out of this 8+ Billion has been loaned out, 5.9 Billion to ford, 1.6 Billion to Nissan, 465 Million to Tesla, and 528.7 Million to Fisker. I don't hear much bitching about Ford and Nissan and government money. This is a specific program to spur development of higher mileage vehicles. Not a bad idea IMHO.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:54 PM   #43
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I really like where this is going and hopefully one day this car will be priced at a point where it makes paying for gas not worth it. I really don't see the bitching about government loans. At least something is being done with it and just not propping up dead beats that sit on their ass all day.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:26 AM   #44
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FYI, Musk wasn't a Billionaire when he started Tesla.

Holy shit that guy is bad with money.

Why don't I just buy a Delorean?
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:31 AM   #45
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Holy shit that guy is bad with money.

Why don't I just buy a Delorean?
OR he just firmly believes in the project he's started and so far they are actually going pretty damn well.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:04 AM   #46
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Really? I've gotten the opposite impression**

In my humble opinion** The car business is ultimately much more difficult than the space business** Not from a tech perspective, but from a margins/customers/speed of business/manufacturing** I ***mend SpaceX for what they have ac***plished, but I am even more impressed with Tesla for creating a car from the ground up, properly setting up a mass manufacturing plant, and producing a car of such quality** I really hope they are able to keep this up and produce a more middle class level of car**

If I was in need of a car and could live with the inherent limitations of a electric car, I would seriously consider stretching my budget for this car**
This pretty much made me think that way. He gets asked the question at the end of interview.

BTW, once I can afford model S, I am getting one instantly.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:05 AM   #47
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I think Musk's #1 passion is Space X not Tesla.
This is what I said.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:11 AM   #48
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BTW, once I can afford model S, I am getting one instantly.
Just curious, what would make you get a model S over other cars in its class? Which model of the S would you go with?
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:58 AM   #49
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Just curious, what would make you get a model S over other cars in its class? Which model of the S would you go with?
There isn't really much else IN its class. For me the differentiating point would be 'not currently on fire'.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:01 AM   #50
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Holy shit that guy is bad with money.

Why don't I just buy a Delorean?
He's a risk taker. One of those people who defy logic and follow vehemently what they believe in. These are the people who make it. I don't really care for Musk as a person but if you've seen his interviews, he's basically very straightforward with his views, objectives and expectations.
Most people and companies play it safe. It's the few companies that do things differently with precision are the ones who stand out.
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