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Old 11-12-2012, 10:29 AM   #1
styrafoam
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Default Is Microsoft going to fork pc gaming again with DX11.1?

http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/For...7-4cf2a74bfdb6

It doesn't sound like an official announcement just yet, but he also seems pretty certain of the fact by the tone of the post. Hopefully the "no plans at this point" snippet is him acknowledging that a final and firm decision has not been made. At least with DX10 they had the semi believable excuse of the new driver structure being used in Vista.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:02 AM   #2
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No short answer, long answer, nope.

It brings nothing real world to the table that warrants it being a upgrade. Just another reason win 8 is useless OS. Not even gamer care for it.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:15 PM   #3
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Have you even used windows 8 properly? I don't think so.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:35 PM   #4
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Have you even used windows 8 properly? I don't think so.
But Gabe said it was bad! Let's forget he also said moving to shorter, episodic released for HL would make it a shorter time between releases.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:51 PM   #5
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No short answer, long answer, nope.

It brings nothing real world to the table that warrants it being a upgrade. Just another reason win 8 is useless OS. Not even gamer care for it.
Speak for yourself,personally very happy with Win8 and this is from a desktop user and gamer at heart,btw thread over at OCuK about ithttp://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...php?t=18458691 .


I'll say DX11.1 is minor update IMHO and if you really need DX11.1 ,its cheaper for a gamer to upgrade to Win8 then buy a video card or new modern game money wise so not a issue.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:04 PM   #6
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Windows 8 is awesome, and DX9 still looks amazing.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:18 PM   #7
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Also, I don't think DirectX 11.1 will do anything positive or negative for the PC Gaming industry.

Windows 8 is fantastic. No issues with it so far. Best 25 I've spent on a Microsoft product since my Intellimouse Explorer
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:36 PM   #8
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Also, I don't think DirectX 11.1 will do anything positive or negative for the PC Gaming industry.

Windows 8 is fantastic. No issues with it so far. Best 25 I've spent on a Microsoft product since my Intellimouse Explorer
Yes, but going forward if they lock Windows 7 out of DX 11.1 that means any new DX 11.x or > will be unavailable on Windows 7. I think that's a desperate, poor move on their part.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:55 PM   #9
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Windows 8 is meh. Once I got past they made the start menu and entire effing screne it hasnt been so bad. But about 1 of 10 boots my 670's fans are spun to 110%. A reboot fixes it.

11.1 wont have any meaningful impact on the gaming market. Just like all the .1's of DX in the past ammounted to jack squat.
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Old 11-12-2012, 02:03 PM   #10
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If they do this, considering the fact that game companies already complained about win8, they will ruin their own platform entirely.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:13 PM   #11
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Might just be the straw that broke DX's back.
Developer's aren't stupid, so they might just jump ship and start using openGL again.
Then anyone on XP through win 8 & linux & mac could play the game with the latest features their hardware supports.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:39 PM   #12
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Yes, but going forward if they lock Windows 7 out of DX 11.1 that means any new DX 11.x or > will be unavailable on Windows 7. I think that's a desperate, poor move on their part.
They did the same thing with DX10 and locked out WinXP so I don't think what you said is valid whatsoever.

The DX11.1 will likely be simple efficiency improvements and make things a little more streamlined (i.e. run a little better overall with lower memory usage and such).

Further anyone that complains about having to upgrade to get new functionality needs to stop buying all electronics and software...seriously. That is the ONLY way we move forward. If not we would always be on DOS. There comes a time when you have to move up to the next version of any software or hardware to get the functionality you desire.

You don't see old CRT TVs running 1080p 3D do you? Of course not...you don't see WIndows XP supporting DX10 do you? Of course not. Get over it. Windows 8 is not terrible, it won't kill your cat, it won't make you lose your job, & your computer won't blow up. This is how it is...games will continue to use DirectX just like before so if you want to keep playing the newest games in the years to come you will need to upgrade. Otherwise go buy an Xbox.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:22 PM   #13
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Yes, but going forward if they lock Windows 7 out of DX 11.1 that means any new DX 11.x or > will be unavailable on Windows 7. I think that's a desperate, poor move on their part.
Historically, this is MS's pattern. And I share your concerns that they will do exactly that. Anything that they can due to force adopt people.

On the other hand, any upgrade X.x means a small incremental increase in features/capabilities. Shouldn't be anything in an .x upgrade that should break the bank. So I am not sweating the small stuff (at the moment).
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:20 PM   #14
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They did the same thing with DX10 and locked out WinXP so I don't think what you said is valid whatsoever.

The DX11.1 will likely be simple efficiency improvements and make things a little more streamlined (i.e. run a little better overall with lower memory usage and such).

Further anyone that complains about having to upgrade to get new functionality needs to stop buying all electronics and software...seriously. That is the ONLY way we move forward. If not we would always be on DOS. There comes a time when you have to move up to the next version of any software or hardware to get the functionality you desire.

You don't see old CRT TVs running 1080p 3D do you? Of course not...you don't see WIndows XP supporting DX10 do you? Of course not. Get over it. Windows 8 is not terrible, it won't kill your cat, it won't make you lose your job, & your computer won't blow up. This is how it is...games will continue to use DirectX just like before so if you want to keep playing the newest games in the years to come you will need to upgrade. Otherwise go buy an Xbox.
Windows 8 is great for a laptop/tablet with a touch screen. For a desktop it brings nothing new except for minor tweaks. So I dont think it is fair to say those who dislike Win 8 are behind the times. Personally, I would not hesitate to buy Win 8 on a prebuilt device, but if given the choice I would go with Win 7, and I definitely would not bother upgrading Win 7 with Win 8.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:33 PM   #15
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Windows 8 is great for a laptop/tablet with a touch screen. For a desktop it brings nothing new except for minor tweaks. So I dont think it is fair to say those who dislike Win 8 are behind the times. Personally, I would not hesitate to buy Win 8 on a prebuilt device, but if given the choice I would go with Win 7, and I definitely would not bother upgrading Win 7 with Win 8.
My point was, it's inevitable that Windows 7 will be EOL'd so complaining that you won't get new DX versions is a bit silly IMO. It has always been that way and should have been expected. So I don't think there's really a point to complain about it that much.

That said, it is unlikely that DX11.1 will not be backward compatible with DX11. I still expect it to offer simple increases in efficiency and not any new graphical features. It may run better on hardware that can support it but I doubt it'll be that big a deal.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:41 PM   #16
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My point was, it's inevitable that Windows 7 will be EOL'd so complaining that you won't get new DX versions is a bit silly IMO. It has always been that way and should have been expected. So I don't think there's really a point to complain about it that much.

That said, it is unlikely that DX11.1 will not be backward compatible with DX11. I still expect it to offer simple increases in efficiency and not any new graphical features. It may run better on hardware that can support it but I doubt it'll be that big a deal.
Actually, what is silly is allowing the companies to dictate what the consumers can/will do. making a platform EOL merely because MS wants everyone to pay more money to them is wrong on a lot of levels. but not nearly as wrong as the consumers bending over and taking it. Why do you think there were so many hold-outs with WinXP over Vista?
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:42 PM   #17
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Actually, what is silly is allowing the companies to dictate what the consumers can/will do. making a platform EOL merely because MS wants everyone to pay more money to them is wrong on a lot of levels. but not nearly as wrong as the consumers bending over and taking it. Why do you think there were so many hold-outs with WinXP over Vista?
So what are you gonna do about it? If you don't have windows what are you gonna do for PC games? Linux? LOL...

It's also not like they're asking $200+ again either. It's $40 and was available for $15 for a while. That's the cheapest OS update I've ever seen.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:46 PM   #18
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Not sure why this is such a big deal. Aren't game developers just now starting to move to DX10? I'm not a huge PC gamer, but Metro 2033 is the only game I've seen with a DX11 option, but it also has a DX9 option.

No matter how many whiz-bang features Microsoft might add in a new version of DX, game developers want to appeal to the widest possible audience, so they're going to make sure the game works with whatever version of DX is in the most widespread use. With XP on the way out, it's probably safe to start targeting DX10, and in 3-4 years when MS is at DX13, they'll probably just be moving to DX11.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:49 PM   #19
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Not sure why this is such a big deal. Aren't game developers just now starting to move to DX10? I'm not a huge PC gamer, but Metro 2033 is the only game I've seen with a DX11 option, but it also has a DX9 option.

No matter how many whiz-bang features Microsoft might add in a new version of DX, game developers want to appeal to the widest possible audience, so they're going to make sure the game works with whatever version of DX is in the most widespread use. With XP on the way out, it's probably safe to start targeting DX10, and in 3-4 years when MS is at DX13, they'll probably just be moving to DX11.
That is also true. It takes a long time for new DX versions to be widely adopted by devs.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:58 PM   #20
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Not sure why this is such a big deal. Aren't game developers just now starting to move to DX10? I'm not a huge PC gamer, but Metro 2033 is the only game I've seen with a DX11 option, but it also has a DX9 option.

No matter how many whiz-bang features Microsoft might add in a new version of DX, game developers want to appeal to the widest possible audience, so they're going to make sure the game works with whatever version of DX is in the most widespread use. With XP on the way out, it's probably safe to start targeting DX10, and in 3-4 years when MS is at DX13, they'll probably just be moving to DX11.
I think we'll see DX11/11.1 becoming the standard once the next-gen consoles come, with GPUs supporting the DX11 feature sets.

I think the next-gen consoles is part of the reason to why we see more and more DX11 games now, that they want their engines more ready for next-gen the moment the consoles hit the market
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:10 PM   #21
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I think we'll see DX11/11.1 becoming the standard once the next-gen consoles come, with GPUs supporting the DX11 feature sets.

I think the next-gen consoles is part of the reason to why we see more and more DX11 games now, that they want their engines more ready for next-gen the moment the consoles hit the market
This is what we'll see. In the next year or two, most major new games/engines (outside of a few sequels that use a tweaked/updated "old engine") will have DX11 baked right in. Through today, only a few engines make strong use of DX11, and a few only used one or two things.
The next console generation (PS4, next Xbox) will be entirely DX11-based. Most engines will ship with a default of DX11, though some might offer DX10/DX9 downgrades (I suspect DX10 will largely be ignored - DX11 or DX9 will be the options in a menu/config file, if even presented).

Some engines/games will offer DX11.1, but no game is going to be so hardcoded into DX11.1 that certain features cannot be disabled to allow it to run in plain DX11. Even if it's developed from the ground up with DX11.1 in mind, gamers will be able to play them (with reduced visuals) in older versions. At the worst, you'll find games that simply cannot be installed/played without DX11, but nothing will be released in the next four or five years that blocks out DX11 systems in favor of only allowing play with an OS that has DX11.1 or better.

In time, I think DX11 will become the new "DX9". So many games, even today, offer DX9 support as an option. Hell, many are completely coded with only DX9 in mind. DX9 is aging, and the latest OS to have DX9 as the best option is quickly becoming hard to find on systems. Windows XP is not going to be a target platform for anyone, for much longer. I imagine developers are going to realize it's better to just drop support entirely and focus on the more recent market.
I don't see developers just moving from DX9 as "base" to DX10. Vista has a limited user base at this point, though yes, there are still Vista systems out there. I just don't see them fussing about losing Vista systems as well. Drop DX9, but move to DX10 just to keep potential Vista holdouts as a possible customer? Might as well make "the big leap forward" and just move to DX11. Win7 has a larger install base, and while that's officially abandoning XP/Vista, they have to realize these moves would come soon enough.

At this point, anyone still on XP or Vista either a) just doesn't care about computers that much (and thus, aren't in the PC gaming market), or b) needs a swift kick to the nuts. Why not at least be on Windows 7? Both XP and Vista are slower in every way than Windows 7 (and 8), and eventually driver support will dwindle (it might already be happening now, not sure... I have recent hardware all around, and have kept recent with OS installs).
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:49 AM   #22
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Actually, what is silly is allowing the companies to dictate what the consumers can/will do. making a platform EOL merely because MS wants everyone to pay more money to them is wrong on a lot of levels. but not nearly as wrong as the consumers bending over and taking it. Why do you think there were so many hold-outs with WinXP over Vista?
While in theory I can agree with you, dont most companies (or the government) dictate what we can buy in almost every area? Consumers can "vote with their wallet", granted, but unless there is a widespread organized boycott or something like that, I am not sure how much effect it has. Point is, I dont think Microsoft is that much worse than most any other big company.

I will grant though, that Win 8 seems more of an in your face confrontation to old style users than some new OSs due to the default "start" menu (i.e. the Metro interface) and the removal of a true start menu even when you go to the desktop.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:54 AM   #23
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DX11 has become the new standard already - sort of. At least with more mainstream PC titles. Win7 and DX11 IGP saturation has reached a high enough point to pretty much throw DX9 out the window [7] (pun intended lol).

DX9 legacy support is pretty pointless now. DX11 titles are backwards compatible with DX10 hardware simplifying the API compatibility issue.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:40 AM   #24
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At this point, anyone still on XP or Vista either a) just doesn't care about computers that much (and thus, aren't in the PC gaming market), or b) needs a swift kick to the nuts. Why not at least be on Windows 7? Both XP and Vista are slower in every way than Windows 7 (and 8), and eventually driver support will dwindle (it might already be happening now, not sure... I have recent hardware all around, and have kept recent with OS installs).
Vista supports DX11 though, and the DX11 API can target both DX10/10.1 and DX11 GPUs

While it's nice that the next-gen consoles will make DX11 finally being used in almost all games, it's a little sad that it also means we will be stuck on an API released in 2009.
DX12 probably isn't too far off, but its support will likely be reminiscent of how DX10 turned out.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:22 AM   #25
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Not sure why this is such a big deal. Aren't game developers just now starting to move to DX10? I'm not a huge PC gamer, but Metro 2033 is the only game I've seen with a DX11 option, but it also has a DX9 option.

No matter how many whiz-bang features Microsoft might add in a new version of DX, game developers want to appeal to the widest possible audience, so they're going to make sure the game works with whatever version of DX is in the most widespread use. With XP on the way out, it's probably safe to start targeting DX10, and in 3-4 years when MS is at DX13, they'll probably just be moving to DX11.
BF3 was the first I remember to not run on xp at all as it has no dx9 mode.
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