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Old 11-10-2012, 11:12 AM   #1
Dari
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Default Why are Ford hybrid vehicles getting better (EPA) mileage than Toyota hybrids? UPDATE

Is it because of better battery? A larger battery? More innovation?

UPDATE: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...o-epa-ratings/


UPDATE II: Consumer Reports calls out Ford for false Fusion, C-Max hybrid fuel economy claims

Last edited by Dari; 12-07-2012 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 11-10-2012, 02:21 PM   #2
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Fords engines are newer in general. Toyota doesn't even have direct injection in their normal non Lexus cars.

Could be one factor anyway. Ford probably games the epa milage better. Real world I know the last fusion doesn't get anywhere near its hybrid rating
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Old 11-10-2012, 02:53 PM   #3
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because they are probably using the old 2 cycle epa testing, instead of the new 5 cycle testing rating.
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Old 11-10-2012, 03:51 PM   #4
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because they are probably using the old 2 cycle epa testing, instead of the new 5 cycle testing rating.
wouldn't Toyota be doing the same thing?


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Old 11-10-2012, 04:06 PM   #5
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Smaller engine (2.0l vs 2.5l), better aerodynamics (but not by much), li-ion vs ni-mh battery.
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Old 11-10-2012, 04:32 PM   #6
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I love this place. Honest question about why one company is doing better than another results in the first two answers being "Ford's faking the results" and "Ford must be using a different test".

Christ guys, seriously? This is the garage, not off topic.
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Old 11-10-2012, 04:40 PM   #7
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What I am amused by is the purely biased assumption that something must be fishy if Ford's cars get better mileage. Do you think that one company's engineers are inherently better than the other company's?
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:02 PM   #8
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Same tests. The C-Max competes against the Prius V and it's getting better mileage. No conspiracy, it's just better. However, in 1-2 years the next gen prius will be released (priuschat.com front page now I think has something on it). The standard hatchback is supposed to get 20% better mileage. I imagine that would also affect the V. 20% better on it would bring it basically where the C-max is.

I don't think lion makes any substantial difference in anything but capacity per weight at this point; I've not heard (not saying it's not the case) It's anymore actual efficient/less energy loss than nickel--I bet it's not. Toyota's engineer says they'll still use nickel based in some cars and it works great in hybrids.
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dari View Post
wouldn't Toyota be doing the same thing?


Posted from Anandtech.com App for Android
not necessarily, though I don't know. I just picked up an F-150 eco boost from a ford dealership, and the monroney tag says "EPA estimates based on 2 cycle testing"....
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Old 11-10-2012, 06:25 PM   #10
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not necessarily, though I don't know. I just picked up an F-150 eco boost from a ford dealership, and the monroney tag says "EPA estimates based on 2 cycle testing"....
So what mileage are you getting out of it when you hand calculate?
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:30 PM   #11
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They were allowed for some models, until 2012, to do the 2 cycle test and then use a formula from the EPA to extrapolate what the 5 cycle test results would be. No one is faking anything. All mfgs did this with some models until the new testing regime was fully in force.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:09 AM   #12
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Is it because of better battery? A larger battery? More innovation?
Because you can't trust their claimed EPA numbers? Hyundai all over again.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:22 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Pulsar View Post
I love this place. Honest question about why one company is doing better than another results in the first two answers being "Ford's faking the results" and "Ford must be using a different test".

Christ guys, seriously? This is the garage, not off topic.
reputation is a bitch.
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What I am amused by is the purely biased assumption that something must be fishy if Ford's cars get better mileage. *Do you think that one company's engineers are inherently better than the other company's?
Nobody has a problem trusting Toyota because Toyota is perceived as reliable. Ford has an uphill battle in this.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:32 AM   #14
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look on fuelly.com at the numbers the cmax is putting out. my estimate, based on the few they got in there, is that it's going to be getting in the range of 40-45, where the prius is getting 49. I'm averaging 46.5 so far in my prius, but I beat the thing.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:51 AM   #15
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Prius V with 193 people reporting is getting 42.4
C-Max with 10 people reporting is getting 39.9
Going by fuelly.com

Pretty much neck and neck given the limted amount of people reporting on the C-max so far. Not too bad since the Ford has 50 more HP than the toyota too.
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:12 PM   #16
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lies, damned lies, and Ford's EPA statistics.
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:16 PM   #17
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not necessarily, though I don't know. I just picked up an F-150 eco boost from a ford dealership, and the monroney tag says "EPA estimates based on 2 cycle testing"....
Damn, the new F-150 is getting close to the same gas mileage as my LS
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:20 PM   #18
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Prius V with 193 people reporting is getting 42.4
C-Max with 10 people reporting is getting 39.9
Going by fuelly.com

Pretty much neck and neck given the limted amount of people reporting on the C-max so far. Not too bad since the Ford has 50 more HP than the toyota too.
BOLDED for the important piece - Seriously folks - the C-MAX is more than a full second to 60mph and the 1/4 miles faster than the V. Its interior materials are far superior, it has a decent level of driving enjoyment unlike the appliance like V - and lets not forget how F'in ugly the V is.

Its like comparing a Focus against the Corolla. A lot of drivers will forego 2-4mpg for driving enjoyment. The C-Max fills that void like no other as does the Fusion.
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:28 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by thedarkwolf View Post
Prius V with 193 people reporting is getting 42.4
C-Max with 10 people reporting is getting 39.9
Going by fuelly.com

Pretty much neck and neck given the limted amount of people reporting on the C-max so far. Not too bad since the Ford has 50 more HP than the toyota too.
Yeah, I guess the prius v is more comparable to the cmax. Be interesting once those cmax's are broken in how they will do. When I was shopping around I didn't feel the need to get the prius v as the gain in space didn't seem justifiable to the loss of MPG. It wasn't like I was getting it for anything more than getting from point A to B with the kids in the back.
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Old 11-11-2012, 03:16 PM   #20
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So what mileage are you getting out of it when you hand calculate?
the EPA estimate is 22mpg highway....I got 13mpg on my drive to SLC from Denver this weekend. No where near the estimate...

The old 2 cycle testing was simple highway/city so it made cars look like they got more gas mileage than they actually did. Another good example is the new Impreza...it gets no where near the rated MPG on the highway, because they advertise the old 2 cycle test rating.
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:20 PM   #21
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reputation is a bitch.


Nobody has a problem trusting Toyota because Toyota is perceived as reliable. Ford has an uphill battle in this.
I think the opposite. I am interested in the C-MAX. You couldn't pay me to drive a Toyota. They have a horrible reputation after the unintended acceleration fiasco.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:09 PM   #22
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I think the opposite. I am interested in the C-MAX. You couldn't pay me to drive a Toyota. They have a horrible reputation after the unintended acceleration fiasco.
...that wasn't their fault in the slightest.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:39 PM   #23
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Disclaimer: I'm a Ford shareholder and a Toyota owner.

Ford is currently making better hybrids. They've taken their sweet ass time to ramp up their product line. They spent a lot on R&D. They weren't the first mover, so they got to learn from the stumbles and successes of the others.

I own Ford stock because Mulally came in and made one common sense decision: You have to make cars that people actually want to drive. It's been a slow climb back, but Ford really is doing that. They've had fewer misses in the market over the past decade or so because they seem to be taking their time and making sure the product is a good one (segment, price, value) before releasing it.

That said, Ford just came to market with something they had a lot of time to design and build. Toyota's going to do the same exact thing and come out with even better hybrids/plug-ins the next round.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:48 PM   #24
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I think the opposite. I am interested in the C-MAX. You couldn't pay me to drive a Toyota. They have a horrible reputation after the unintended acceleration fiasco.
Didn't the escape just get recalled like 2-3 times at launch. I like ford and they are making some good cars lately but I don't think they have near the reputation Toyota does even after the bogus acceleration fiasco
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:32 PM   #25
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Fords engines are newer in general. Toyota doesn't even have direct injection in their normal non Lexus cars.

Could be one factor anyway. Ford probably games the epa milage better. Real world I know the last fusion doesn't get anywhere near its hybrid rating
I'd like to see data on that.
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