Go Back   AnandTech Forums > Social > Politics and News

Forums
· Hardware and Technology
· CPUs and Overclocking
· Motherboards
· Video Cards and Graphics
· Memory and Storage
· Power Supplies
· Cases & Cooling
· SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs
· Networking
· Peripherals
· General Hardware
· Highly Technical
· Computer Help
· Home Theater PCs
· Consumer Electronics
· Digital and Video Cameras
· Mobile Devices & Gadgets
· Audio/Video & Home Theater
· Software
· Software for Windows
· All Things Apple
· *nix Software
· Operating Systems
· Programming
· PC Gaming
· Console Gaming
· Distributed Computing
· Security
· Social
· Off Topic
· Politics and News
· Discussion Club
· Love and Relationships
· The Garage
· Health and Fitness
· Merchandise and Shopping
· For Sale/Trade
· Hot Deals with Free Stuff/Contests
· Black Friday 2014
· Forum Issues
· Technical Forum Issues
· Personal Forum Issues
· Suggestion Box
· Moderator Resources
· Moderator Discussions
   

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-09-2012, 05:32 PM   #26
Charles Kozierok
Elite Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,762
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by werepossum View Post
These are simply not options.
As opposed to "eliminating the states" or "eliminating the senate", which are incredibly realistic.
__________________
"Of those who say nothing, few are silent." -- Thomas Neill
Charles Kozierok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 06:12 PM   #27
DrPizza
Administrator
Elite Member
Goat Whisperer
 
DrPizza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Western NY
Posts: 44,600
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by werepossum View Post
The federal government is increasingly powerful, and we just elected the party that promises to make it more so. In my county for instance one can no longer even bring food to one's children/grandchildren in public schools because of Michelle's initiative.
I got to your first point. Allow me to point out how it's absolutely incorrect. What you can and can't bring in to your children in public schools is UP TO THE LOCAL SCHOOL BOARD to decide. At the national level, there are no such restrictions even suggested. Thus, it seems that YOU, at the LOCAL LEVEL are too stupid to elect people with common sense.

Only an idiot would blame idiotic decisions on intelligent people who didn't make those decisions, rather than blame them on their fellow idiots who did make those decisions.
__________________
Fainting Goats
DrPizza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 07:49 PM   #28
Moonbeam
Elite Member
 
Moonbeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 52,765
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesKozierok View Post
As opposed to "eliminating the states" or "eliminating the senate", which are incredibly realistic.
May I offer you a cautionary word: This is a moment of intense grief over the death of an altered reality for millions of conservatives. I think any mention of realism right now would be like salt in a wound. Have some mercy please. There are millions of folk feeling around the bottoms of their caves right now sifting through tons of bat shit that's just fallen their burying their rose colored glasses. It's going to take them some time to find them and get them polish up so they can feel at home again in some new altered reality. Right now they just need to puke and get the rage out.
__________________
The above is probably just my usual sarcasm and in no way reflects my real opinion (and,or) may include subtleties of sufficient rarity as to appear to the unsuspecting like total gibberish. It may not be so much a matter that I'm far out, but rather that you have never been anywhere.
Moonbeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 07:51 PM   #29
thujone
Golden Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by techs View Post
Grape jelly is best.
that's it! you've gone too far!
__________________
heat|ebay|email
thujone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 08:05 PM   #30
Agent11
Diamond Member
 
Agent11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,535
Default

You guys need to just stop thinking, you are very bad at it.

Get rid of the states. Most retarded thing I've heard in a while. And I mean that in the clinical sense.
__________________
-11
Agent11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 08:20 PM   #31
RabidMongoose
Lifer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,061
Default

Some states should get eliminated. I'm thinking Alabama, Mississippi, Kentucky, TN, WV, SC, ND, SD, Wyoming, Idaho...they can all be managed by the city of Chicago.
RabidMongoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 08:51 PM   #32
Zorkorist
Diamond Member
 
Zorkorist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,563
Default Who is John Galt?

We're actually getting close to a "Who is John Galt?" level here, where the majority of free-loaders, Government, Insurance Companies, and Lawyers, are pissing off the producers.

They've shown time and time again, that they don't care.

Why should we?

-John
Zorkorist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2012, 09:01 PM   #33
LumbergTech
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,623
Default

a democrat president was re-elected, therefore we need to get rid of the states? lol..
LumbergTech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 12:27 AM   #34
MooseNSquirrel
Golden Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,867
Default

You dont get it LumberTech.

For 4 years now these people have been warning us about the Kenyan communist dictator.

Now their worst fears have been realized: we will be overrun by brown people and universal health care! WERE DOOOOMED!
MooseNSquirrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 01:03 AM   #35
sao123
Lifer
 
sao123's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Steeler Nation
Posts: 12,014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by werepossum View Post
Is it time to eliminate states?

eliminating states solves nothing. Elimintating cities and Urban regions, now thats getting to the heart of the problem. Time to level them all and replace them with farmland and dirty industry again.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by: Eaglekeeper
Most anyone in the US that grew up in the city/inner city does not have the skills/knowledge to properly survive off the land.

Originally posted by: Dank69
It's (expletive deleted) easy. Throw seeds on the ground. Plants sprout. Pick hamburgers. Repeat.
sao123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 07:37 AM   #36
JohnOfSheffield
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 11,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by werepossum View Post
Is it time to eliminate states? The federal government is increasingly powerful, and we just elected the party that promises to make it more so. In my county for instance one can no longer even bring food to one's children/grandchildren in public schools because of Michelle's initiative. Any powers left to the states are merely those the federal government has not yet deigned to seize. The things firmly left to the states' control, such as the definition of marriage, seem to me to be the very things that should be universal in a nation. Most of the Mexican border states are at war with the federal government over whether immigration laws should be enforced. So what real purpose is served by having fifty junior leagues? Would we not be better served by regional governors appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate than by electing state legislatures and governors and then fighting the inevitable conflicts out in court?

Regarding the Senate, Senators no longer represent the states' interests, but are elected by popular vote and mostly represent their party and their own interests. Where Senators do manage to work in their states' interests, it's usually to get pork projects at the expense of the nation, such as the F-35 alternative engine program. At best the Senate is hamstrung by it's internal rules from its only unique powers, confirmation of cabinet-level appointees and treaties, and the President increasingly just bypasses them and makes recess appointments which effectively get no investigative hearings at all, much less an up or down vote. The Senate is elected by exact the same rules and serves exactly the same purpose as the House, paying only the barest lip service to the Constitutional separation of powers, and regularly botch their few separate responsibilities.

Seems to me we'd be better off:
1) Eliminating state governments, replacing them with appointed bureaucrats who implement Presidential decrees and Congressional laws so that everyone lives under the same laws. We eliminate turf wars and expensive legal battles with essentially the same results. We also eliminate the electoral college, state and local taxes, and state and local regulations, and establish uniform laws and taxation.

2) Eliminating the Senate, rolling its members into the House and moving its duties to the House. Let SCOTUS judge impeachments, or in case of SCOTUS indictments let the POTUS judge.

As we strain to find new money for new giveaways, why not eliminate redundant levels of government with no real power left anyway?
You seem to have lost it lately, i read that post about how you think atheists are arrogant because they don't believe that they are gods special children specially selected for their goodness like you do and i laughed so hard i almost shat myself when you tried to explain evolution...

You have to be trolling, i see no other explanation.
JohnOfSheffield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 07:40 AM   #37
JohnOfSheffield
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 11,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sao123 View Post
eliminating states solves nothing. Elimintating cities and Urban regions, now thats getting to the heart of the problem. Time to level them all and replace them with farmland and dirty industry again.
And then then new Messiah will return to his nation from and rule the universe from Missouri...

Oh, wait, Romney lost... does that mean that there will be no messiah in missourah anytime soon?
JohnOfSheffield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 08:10 AM   #38
Socio
Golden Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,624
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaLore View Post
Sometimes I wish the civil war had ended with the current US split along the middle from the west coast to the east coast. IT would have been interesting to see the results of a democratic republic unified government versus a democratic republic confederacy.
Would not mind seeing a split right now one half a Conservative Republic the other half a Liberal Democracy.
Socio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2012, 03:01 PM   #39
dank69
Lifer
 
dank69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Corner of FORECLOSURE and BÅNKRUPTCY ST.
Posts: 13,123
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by werepossum View Post
...

Ummm . . .

WOT?

BTW, I have absolutely no problem with Nemesis "being my audience". He's a good guy.
/facepalm
Do you not understand the words on the screen? I'm not sure how much further I can break it down for you but I'll give it the ol' college try:

Quote:
Originally Posted by werepossum View Post
Is it time to eliminate states? The federal government is increasingly powerful,
I didn't cut it off here.



Quote:
and we just elected the party that promises to make it more so. ...
I cut it off here.



So why did you respond as if I cut it off here:
Quote:
Is it time to eliminate states? The federal government is increasingly powerful,
instead of responding as if I cut it off right here:
Quote:
and we just elected the party that promises to make it more so. ...
where I actually cut it off?
__________________
Nemesis 1: Above your age please. The climate is in fact warmer now . Maybe this erection will cool things down mother earth shes hot.

pcgeek11: IMO: Being gay is not a minority. It is a genetic defect

Idontcare: dank69 is hereby permabanned.
dank69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 10:40 AM   #40
werepossum
Lifer
 
werepossum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 20,278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesKozierok View Post
As opposed to "eliminating the states" or "eliminating the senate", which are incredibly realistic.
Point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPizza View Post
I got to your first point. Allow me to point out how it's absolutely incorrect. What you can and can't bring in to your children in public schools is UP TO THE LOCAL SCHOOL BOARD to decide. At the national level, there are no such restrictions even suggested. Thus, it seems that YOU, at the LOCAL LEVEL are too stupid to elect people with common sense.

Only an idiot would blame idiotic decisions on intelligent people who didn't make those decisions, rather than blame them on their fellow idiots who did make those decisions.
That's absolutely true as long as a school district is willing to forgo federal money, which requires meeting federal "guidelines". This policy is specifically to meet new federal guidelines - specifically Michelle Obama's war on obesity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dank69 View Post
/facepalm
Do you not understand the words on the screen? I'm not sure how much further I can break it down for you but I'll give it the ol' college try:

I didn't cut it off here.



I cut it off here.



So why did you respond as if I cut it off here:instead of responding as if I cut it off right here:where I actually cut it off?
So the party that gave us Obamacare is NOT the party that wants to make the federal government more powerful?

Perhaps you can see how that might not be intuitive. Or perhaps "powerful" is in the process of being redefined, like "freedom" and "liberty"?
__________________
"We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on, you know,
72 degrees at all times and -- whether we're living in the desert or we're living in the
tundra, and then just expect that every other country is going to say, okay, you know you
guys go ahead and keep on using 25% of the world's energy - Barack Hussein Obama
werepossum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 10:52 AM   #41
Oyeve
Lifer
 
Oyeve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,850
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidMongoose View Post
Some states should get eliminated. I'm thinking Alabama, Mississippi, Kentucky, TN, WV, SC, ND, SD, Wyoming, Idaho...they can all be managed by the city of Chicago.
You forgot texas.
__________________
My Heat
Oyeve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 12:31 PM   #42
jstern01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Oviedo, Florida
Posts: 530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by werepossum View Post
Point.


That's absolutely true as long as a school district is willing to forgo federal money, which requires meeting federal "guidelines". This policy is specifically to meet new federal guidelines - specifically Michelle Obama's war on obesity.


So the party that gave us Obamacare is NOT the party that wants to make the federal government more powerful?

Perhaps you can see how that might not be intuitive. Or perhaps "powerful" is in the process of being redefined, like "freedom" and "liberty"?
Before you jump off the deep end. Remember this centralization of power has been going on under both Republicans and Democrats. Didn't Dubya just created the largest centralized grab of power ever with the Patriot Act, DHS and numerous other policy changes that allow the Federal Govt to do what it pleases? Obama has been no better, because he continued them.

As for schools, my county receives federal funds like any other county and we have no problem allow parents to bring in food for parties/celebrations. In fact the PTA is scheduling a huge Thanksgiving pot luck at the school for the kids the day before Thanksgiving. I suspect your local school board is more of the issue. But please point out exactly the Federal regulation that says Federal Funding is dependent upon you not bring food to school for your kid. I know there is one for certain allegen type foods, but that is for safety.
__________________
“In no instance have the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”
~James Madison

“I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
~ Thomas Jefferson
jstern01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 12:40 PM   #43
chucky2
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Chicagoland, IL USA
Posts: 7,832
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidMongoose View Post
Some states should get eliminated. I'm thinking Alabama, Mississippi, Kentucky, TN, WV, SC, ND, SD, Wyoming, Idaho...they can all be managed by the city of Chicago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyeve View Post
You forgot texas.
As a long time Chicagoland native, that would be like the worst possible management decision...ever. Given Illinois, if there was anything being combined, we should be law be denied from having anyone from IL be part of the 'new state' management.

Can't tell if you were trying to be funny or not...if so, good joke!, if not, you're....simply insane.

Chuck
__________________
Tyan = No Support
Chuck's K6-3+
chucky2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 02:09 PM   #44
yllus
Lifer
Elite Member
 
yllus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 19,643
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorkorist View Post
We're actually getting close to a "Who is John Galt?" level here, where the majority of free-loaders, Government, Insurance Companies, and Lawyers, are pissing off the producers.

They've shown time and time again, that they don't care.

Why should we?

-John
Nothing of the sort is occurring.

The "producers" are doing just fine - in fact, they're making more than ever. Insurance companies, while often moaned about because of the something-for-nothing (until you need it) nature of their business, are a valuable and important part of the economy. And the pervasive need for lawyers is simply a reflection of a society that is incredibly rich and diverse, and as such needs very many types of contracts argued out.

The bad rap and term "libertopians" seems to be more and more valid these days. It's time to face up to the complex, messy reality that is life in 2012. Things aren't going back to the way they were where the Federal Reserve wasn't needed and your factory job with Ford was something you knew was going to be there ten years from now. Put on your big boy pants and join the rest of us adults.
__________________
AnandTech Forums for Mobile Devices

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H.L. Mencken
yllus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 06:18 PM   #45
werepossum
Lifer
 
werepossum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 20,278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstern01 View Post
Before you jump off the deep end. Remember this centralization of power has been going on under both Republicans and Democrats. Didn't Dubya just created the largest centralized grab of power ever with the Patriot Act, DHS and numerous other policy changes that allow the Federal Govt to do what it pleases? Obama has been no better, because he continued them.

As for schools, my county receives federal funds like any other county and we have no problem allow parents to bring in food for parties/celebrations. In fact the PTA is scheduling a huge Thanksgiving pot luck at the school for the kids the day before Thanksgiving. I suspect your local school board is more of the issue. But please point out exactly the Federal regulation that says Federal Funding is dependent upon you not bring food to school for your kid. I know there is one for certain allegen type foods, but that is for safety.
That was my point - that the nation has shifted toward preferring a more centralized, top-down society with a more powerful federal government. My error was in looking at W as an aberration, a left-leaning moderate who pretended to be a conservative, and things like the Patriot Act as war-time discrepancies. In reality the Republicans obviously realized that the way to win the modern voter is to bribe him and that the modern American is willing to trade freedom for the promise of security. When someone like Obama, who proudly disdains the private sector (his time behind enemy lines as he put it), can beat someone like Romney, not much point in pretending that America is what it traditionally was.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012...2012-10229.pdf
Quote:
SUMMARY: This interim rule amends National School Lunch Program regulations to conform to requirements contained in the Healthy, Hunger-Free Kids Act of 2010 regarding performance based cash assistance for school food authorities certified compliant with meal pattern and nutrition standards. This rule requires State agencies to certify participating school food authorities (SFAs) that are in compliance with meal pattern and
nutrition standard requirements as eligible to receive performance-based cash assistance for each reimbursable lunch served (an additional six cents per lunch available beginning October 1, 2012 and adjusted annually thereafter).
If the government school does not control the food its children eat, it cannot honestly certify under the interim rule that its children's lunches meet the federal guidelines and therefore can't get its Obamabucks. I don't know if your school is less than honest in reporting, or didn't get the memo, or is in a rich enough district to disdain additional federal funding, but the whole point is for the federal government to control what the school's children eat. As Tom Daschle would say, you don't nutritionalize until you federalize.

When it's not even controversial to make law that says parents and even local governments can't properly feed a child without the federal government's oversight, it's hard to argue that the left hasn't utterly and completely won.
__________________
"We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on, you know,
72 degrees at all times and -- whether we're living in the desert or we're living in the
tundra, and then just expect that every other country is going to say, okay, you know you
guys go ahead and keep on using 25% of the world's energy - Barack Hussein Obama
werepossum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 05:30 PM   #46
dank69
Lifer
 
dank69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Corner of FORECLOSURE and BÅNKRUPTCY ST.
Posts: 13,123
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by werepossum View Post
...

So the party that gave us Obamacare is NOT the party that wants to make the federal government more powerful?

Perhaps you can see how that might not be intuitive. Or perhaps "powerful" is in the process of being redefined, like "freedom" and "liberty"?
If giving us Obamacare is proof that the Dems are the party of expanded government when AFAIK the only thing in the ACA that could qualify as expanded government is the mandate tax, what does that make the party that gave us the Patriot Act? The party that wants to expand government even faster than Dems? Maybe we should label the Democrats as religious nutbags while we're at it? You know, just to continue the theme of labeling them as something that the Republicans do even worse.
__________________
Nemesis 1: Above your age please. The climate is in fact warmer now . Maybe this erection will cool things down mother earth shes hot.

pcgeek11: IMO: Being gay is not a minority. It is a genetic defect

Idontcare: dank69 is hereby permabanned.
dank69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 05:54 PM   #47
werepossum
Lifer
 
werepossum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 20,278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dank69 View Post
If giving us Obamacare is proof that the Dems are the party of expanded government when AFAIK the only thing in the ACA that could qualify as expanded government is the mandate tax, what does that make the party that gave us the Patriot Act? The party that wants to expand government even faster than Dems? Maybe we should label the Democrats as religious nutbags while we're at it? You know, just to continue the theme of labeling them as something that the Republicans do even worse.
Obamacare moved control of health insurance from the states to the federal government. It sets up subsidies for (IIRC) those up to 167% of the poverty line. And it empowers government to tell employers they have to give us free stuff. Government (federal, anyway) just got a LOT bigger and a LOT more powerful.

You've got a point about the Patriot Act though. We're no longer a nation that believes in limited government, and the Patriot Act and Medicare Part D show that the GOP realized this long ago.
__________________
"We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on, you know,
72 degrees at all times and -- whether we're living in the desert or we're living in the
tundra, and then just expect that every other country is going to say, okay, you know you
guys go ahead and keep on using 25% of the world's energy - Barack Hussein Obama
werepossum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 09:24 PM   #48
Zorkorist
Diamond Member
 
Zorkorist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,563
Default

Everyone hated George Bush. Republicans and Democrats. For the Republicans, he was a lessor evil, for the Democrats he was just plain evil.

But, the fact is people like Obama, are just advancing the Federal Government's stranglehold on the population. Spending like there is no tomorrow, and taxing.

It's not like Government services are some panacea... everyone complains about Government services.

Everyone except, the people that make their money off the Government tit. Lawyers, Insurance Companies, and now with ACA, Doctors, Nurses, and all the folks in the healthcare industry. The newest Government employees.

Party Members.

-John

Last edited by Zorkorist; 11-14-2012 at 09:26 PM.
Zorkorist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 11:07 PM   #49
piasabird
Lifer
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,196
Default

The problem is the states should resist everything the Federal Govt does that there is not constitutional right for. If states do not stand up for their rights they dont deserve them.

There are some times that I think certain rights should be taken from the states. For instance I think all the laws for motor vehicles and Traffick laws should be set by the department of transportation. All vehicle violations should be in a national computer system.

The other problem I see is that Marriage laws and family court should be standardized so people cant hide by running accross state borders. We have similar problems with laws about medical doctors. They also run from state to state in an attempt to keep from losing their license when they mess up repeatedly.

There are reasons why certain types of federal laws might be helpful. Not to aid business, but to protect the public.
__________________
Asus Memo Pad 7 HD. Quad Core Tablet.
piasabird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 02:45 AM   #50
JEDIYoda
Lifer
 
JEDIYoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Israeli side
Posts: 21,440
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by techs View Post
Grape jelly is best.

apply grape jelly liberally with index finger for the reduction of pain from hemorrhoids......
__________________
JohnOfSheffield -- That said, Palestine will exist when they understand that Israel exists, it's that blatantly simple!
JEDIYoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.